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Tekania
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Founded: May 26, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tekania » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:15 pm

Conservative Conservationists wrote:It is tricky because there are many competing issues including

1) Religious freedom - Should people be forced to provide supplies for an event their faith is against? If so, its a drastic choice between surrendering your career or going against your religion

2) Business choice - Theoretically both business and customer should be able to choose whom they do business with. I would find it ridiculous to refuse to serve a gay couple a standard meal at a pub which already has a fixed price menu. However if it is a price that can be changed/negotiated, it will be near impossible to prove that you did not get a better price because you are homosexual. In that sense, its easy to discriminate by higher prices.

3) Manner in which refusal is performed - There is a clear difference between a polite and rude refusal. The mental anguish on a certain method of refusal could be a legal case in itself.

Overall I am against the action being forced, because it was a special event for a wedding in which people should have their own freedom to believe in or not. If this same gay couple wanted a cake for a birthday, there would be no real reason to refuse on religious grounds so I would support a forced sale.

Yet what really gets me is why the couple wanted to take it this far. Was there no other baker?


Most likely more of a principal thing. Businesses can't discriminate against protected classes under federal and state laws when they provide businesses licensed for public commerce. They had access to a lawyer and non-profit which footed the bill on the filing and arguing of the case.

I mean some can argue about it till their blue in the face, it does not matter. We've seen what happens when businesses are allowed to discriminate, we had to make laws so they can't.... we're not going back. Businesses licensed to provide a public accommodation do not have religious liberty, they surrendered it when they incorporated, got a license and opened their door to the public.
Such heroic nonsense!
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God Kefka
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Postby God Kefka » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:50 pm

Tekania wrote:
God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...


That would be a felony. They will be looking a lot more than a fine on that.


not if they are careful...
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:03 am

God Kefka wrote:
Tekania wrote:
That would be a felony. They will be looking a lot more than a fine on that.


not if they are careful...

If they had been careful they would not have made this mistake in the first place.
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Orham
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Founded: Feb 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Orham » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:13 am

God Kefka wrote:If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...


...so the shop owners in your hypothetical want to risk 25 years to life without parole over a cake, huh? They're idiots.

EDIT: To be a little more specific, changed to "25 years to life without parole".
Last edited by Orham on Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania
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Founded: May 26, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tekania » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:17 am

God Kefka wrote:
not if they are careful...


They haven't demonstrated any carefulness up to this point.

Not that that matters, their act would constitute something criminal of a felony nature whether they were caught or not. It would also be an extremely sinful act.
Such heroic nonsense!
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The Grey Wolf
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Postby The Grey Wolf » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:34 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Grey Wolf wrote:From what I heard the Baker sold them some stuff but refused to sell them a wedding cake. While I'm for businesses being able to choose who they sell to, in this scenario, that's discriminatory.


That's even more clear cut.


Not sure if you're agreeing with me. :unsure:
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Yaltabaoth
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Ex-Nation

Postby Yaltabaoth » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:41 am

God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...

This reads like something written by Jack Chick.
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Myrensis
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Myrensis » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:25 am

God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...


:palm:

I'm genuinely curious, as you were typing that, did it really not occur to you how hilariously, catastrophically stupid it was?

"If you force a man to bake a cake against his will, he's entitled to take payment in blood."
Last edited by Myrensis on Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Herrebrugh
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Postby Herrebrugh » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:35 am

God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...


...

The fuck did I just read? :eyebrow:
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:07 am

Herrebrugh wrote:
God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...


...

The fuck did I just read? :eyebrow:


Someone's homo-cidal fantasy.
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Imperial Nilfgaard
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Postby Imperial Nilfgaard » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:13 am

How much was the fine? If he really wanted he could still refuse and just pay it.

I can't imagine it would be that much.
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Capital Zealand
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Postby Capital Zealand » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:23 am

The baker was an idiot. He lost not only a customer but a whole busload of them after the rumor says he is a bigoted redneck. In as liberal of a state as California, it's a lot of lost customers due to plain ignorance of the entrepreneur. Thankfully he holds no monopoly in the state.

I don't give a damn about what customers are let in or not. On the matter of businesses choosing who to employ, there I say that only the merits matter and discrimination is out of the question.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:25 am

Capital Zealand wrote:The baker was an idiot. He lost not only a customer but a whole busload of them after the rumor says he is a bigoted redneck. In as liberal of a state as California, it's a lot of lost customers due to plain ignorance of the entrepreneur. Thankfully he holds no monopoly in the state.

I don't give a damn about what customers are let in or not. On the matter of businesses choosing who to employ, there I say that only the merits matter and discrimination is out of the question.


Colorado.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
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Capital Zealand
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Postby Capital Zealand » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:27 am

Gauthier wrote:
Capital Zealand wrote:The baker was an idiot. He lost not only a customer but a whole busload of them after the rumor says he is a bigoted redneck. In as liberal of a state as California, it's a lot of lost customers due to plain ignorance of the entrepreneur. Thankfully he holds no monopoly in the state.

I don't give a damn about what customers are let in or not. On the matter of businesses choosing who to employ, there I say that only the merits matter and discrimination is out of the question.


Colorado.

Still very liberal, how the fuck did I read it was California? Never mind my California.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:46 am

OK, this is an example of gay rights taking rights away from other people. The baker has religious beliefs that say is is wrong to sell cakes for gay marriages. The gay couple could easily have went to another bakery but instead chose to be A-holes and sued her. Why do gays insist everybody accepts their views?

Is forced acceptance of the gay lifestyle more important than freedom of religion? Personally, my view is businesses should not be forced to do business with gays. The gays can easily find another business to give their money to.

A similar case happened against a florist in Washington:

http://news.yahoo.com/washington-state- ... 32518.html


Civil Rights Act of 1964 is wrong. Businesses should have the right to discriminate.

Ron Paul is against it and gives good reasons:

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-rights-act/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/0 ... 78688.html
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:49 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:OK, this is an example of gay rights taking rights away from other people. The baker has religious beliefs that say is is wrong to sell cakes for gay marriages. The gay couple could easily have went to another bakery but instead chose to be A-holes and sued her. Why do gays insist everybody accepts their views?

Is forced acceptance of the gay lifestyle more important than freedom of religion? Personally, my view is businesses should not be forced to do business with gays. The gays can easily find another business to give their money to.

A similar case happened against a florist in Washington:

http://news.yahoo.com/washington-state- ... 32518.html


Civil Rights Act of 1964 is wrong. Businesses should have the right to discriminate.

Ron Paul is against it and gives good reasons:

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-rights-act/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/0 ... 78688.html


Glad to see someone wants Separate But Equal back.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:54 am

Gauthier wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:OK, this is an example of gay rights taking rights away from other people. The baker has religious beliefs that say is is wrong to sell cakes for gay marriages. The gay couple could easily have went to another bakery but instead chose to be A-holes and sued her. Why do gays insist everybody accepts their views?

Is forced acceptance of the gay lifestyle more important than freedom of religion? Personally, my view is businesses should not be forced to do business with gays. The gays can easily find another business to give their money to.

A similar case happened against a florist in Washington:

http://news.yahoo.com/washington-state- ... 32518.html


Civil Rights Act of 1964 is wrong. Businesses should have the right to discriminate.

Ron Paul is against it and gives good reasons:

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-rights-act/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/0 ... 78688.html


Glad to see someone wants Separate But Equal back.


I want to increase freedom. The gays can go to another bakery. I doubt that is the only one in town. If they give me $30, I will be happy to bake a cake for them and stick a gay couple figurine in the center.
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Orla
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Postby Orla » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:54 am

The man may be a prejudice bigot, but still, it's his right to his customers.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:55 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Gauthier wrote:
Glad to see someone wants Separate But Equal back.


I want to increase freedom. The gays can go to another bakery. I doubt that is the only one in town. If they give me $30, I will be happy to bake a cake for them and stick a gay couple figurine in the center.


Because nothing says "freedom" like "Whites only," "Colored only," "Straight only," and "Gay only".
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
Where is your God-Emperor now?
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Orla
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Postby Orla » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:56 am

The man may be a prejudice bigot, but still, it's his right to his customers.
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Lost heros
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Postby Lost heros » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:56 am

God Kefka wrote:I expect the shop owners will want to take extra-judicial retaliation now... seeing as how unjust the law is...

Winning a lawsuit doesn't always mean winning the big game at the very end.

I bet the shop owners know some people who owe them small favors...

If I were making a movie this would be how it proceeds...

The gays walk up to the store owners in the middle of a business hour and in front of every single customer gloatingly demands their cake. Expecting the shop owners to be extremely pissed off and humiliated, they are shocked instead to find the shop owners smiling calmly.

The cake is brought before them but it turns out to be a cake of the very worst quality imaginable. The gays are annoyed and leave, threatening to launch yet another lawsuit over this. Shop owners say nothing but just keep on smiling calmly.

The gays talk to their lawyer again.

Here's the catch though... they never make it to launch the next lawsuit...

Sounds like a pretty sucky movie.
Last edited by Lost Heros on Sun Mar 6, 2016 12:00, edited 173 times in total.

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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:59 am

Now for the big question: What is he going to serve them as and to whom?
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Lost heros
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Postby Lost heros » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:00 am

Conservative Conservationists wrote:It is tricky because there are many competing issues including

1) Religious freedom - Should people be forced to provide supplies for an event their faith is against? If so, its a drastic choice between surrendering your career or going against your religion

2) Business choice - Theoretically both business and customer should be able to choose whom they do business with. I would find it ridiculous to refuse to serve a gay couple a standard meal at a pub which already has a fixed price menu. However if it is a price that can be changed/negotiated, it will be near impossible to prove that you did not get a better price because you are homosexual. In that sense, its easy to discriminate by higher prices.

3) Manner in which refusal is performed - There is a clear difference between a polite and rude refusal. The mental anguish on a certain method of refusal could be a legal case in itself.

Overall I am against the action being forced, because it was a special event for a wedding in which people should have their own freedom to believe in or not. If this same gay couple wanted a cake for a birthday, there would be no real reason to refuse on religious grounds so I would support a forced sale.

Yet what really gets me is why the couple wanted to take it this far. Was there no other baker?

1. Where in the bible does it say, "Thou shalt not bakst cakes for gay couples"?
2. He did refuse to serve a standard product that was set a fixed price.
3. I'd imagine it was rudely.
Last edited by Lost Heros on Sun Mar 6, 2016 12:00, edited 173 times in total.

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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:04 am

Gauthier wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
I want to increase freedom. The gays can go to another bakery. I doubt that is the only one in town. If they give me $30, I will be happy to bake a cake for them and stick a gay couple figurine in the center.


Because nothing says "freedom" like "Whites only," "Colored only," "Straight only," and "Gay only".


Most businesses care more about money than principles. I find homosexuality weird and sickening BUT I will gladly take their money. I am probably not the only person that feels this way. Most businesses will take their money with a smile while privately criticizing the growing gay culture in their nation.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:05 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Gauthier wrote:
Because nothing says "freedom" like "Whites only," "Colored only," "Straight only," and "Gay only".


Most businesses care more about money than principles. I find homosexuality weird and sickening BUT I will gladly take their money. I am probably not the only person that feels this way. Most businesses will take their money with a smile while privately criticizing the growing gay culture in their nation.


Like this bakery privately criticized the growing gay culture obviously.
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