Mod-Sanctioned LGBT Rights & Issues Thread

[Geilinor]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

their not being forced. people are saying that if the baker refused to serve them then the couple should take their business to another baker who would serve them.

So the baker forced them to go to a different bakery.

[Farnhamia]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

Because the hardship they suffer in being forced to go to another bakery is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the baker in being forced to act against his deeply held religious convictions.

And in doing so broke the law. There are remedies for laws one considers unjust. I suppose the baker can consider himself a hero of civil disobedience but he still broke the law and has to pay the fine.

[Lost heros]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

Because the hardship they suffer in being forced to go to another bakery is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the baker in being forced to act against his deeply held religious convictions.

It's against the baker's religion to make money? That's a weird religion.

[Gig em Aggies]

their not being forced. people are saying that if the baker refused to serve them then the couple should take their business to another baker who would serve them.

So the baker forced them to go to a different bakery.

no what I was saying is that if the baker did not want to provide a cake for them then the couple could have taken their business else where depriving the said baker of their business.

[Auralia]

Because the hardship they suffer in being forced to go to another bakery is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the baker in being forced to act against his deeply held religious convictions.

And the hardship suffered by a black woman on a bus is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the white person in being forced to act against their deeply held religious convictions that whites get seats before blacks?

We're not talking about governmental discrimination.

[Colarias]

That's the point I was trying to make before. It would be an exclusive group, and therefore have the legal ability to refuse service to certain people. There would be two types of people who walk through the doors of the bakery, the members who are heterosexual, and the non-members who are homosexual. The heterosexuals would automatically be a part of the group, while the homosexuals would not be so. A sign in front of the bakery could have easily said "Registration required to use service", and the registration would be so easy that it would only take a minute, making the flow of business almost as if it were a public business.

It would still be a private, exclusive group, but registration of this group would be so simple that anyone eligible would see the registration as nothing.

Perfectly acceptable provided the membership requirements are made clear to those applying so they can refuse to patronise the business.

Glad we can agree on something. Hurray for dialogue.

[Galter Gulcher]

Well, both sides are wrong.

The baker is a complete idiot, trying to not make money.

And the two couple seem like brats who just wanted to make some point about discrimination, NEWSFLASH there are other bakers out there.

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

I don't see why the baker should be forced to serve them.

[Slarvainian]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples
appears that if you own a private business you cant decide who you do business with or not anymore
in this story a judge ordered a Colorado baker to make a cake for a gay couple who married in Massachusetts and wanted a wedding cake to celebrate in Colorado. The Judge said if the baker refused then he would have to pay a fine.

OP thought: I don't like it when some same sex couples use their sexual orientation to force people into doing things their way and if they didn't fold they would face a lawsuit for discrimination. and I read the story their is also discrimination on part of the judge & the gay couple they are forcing someone to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

So NS any words?

This is what always confuses me about the "religious freedom" argument. How does baking a freaking cake for two paying customers violate your freedom to practice your religion? It doesn't.

[Lost heros]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

their not being forced. people are saying that if the baker refused to serve them then the couple should take their business to another baker who would serve them.

By denying business to them, the baker was forcing them to go some place else to get a cake.

[Slarvainian]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

I don't see why the baker should be forced to serve them.

I don't see why the baker has grounds to discriminate?

[Farnhamia]

So the baker forced them to go to a different bakery.

no what I was saying is that if the baker did not want to provide a cake for them then the couple could have taken their business else where depriving the said baker of their business.

Given the amount of time it takes to resolves court cases like this, I imagine they did go elsewhere.

[Auralia]

This is what always confuses me about the "religious freedom" argument. How does baking a freaking cake for two paying customers violate your freedom to practice your religion? It doesn't.

Because religious practice isn't limited to personal convictions and going to church every Sunday. Religious beliefs permeate one's whole life.

[Gauthier]

no what I was saying is that if the baker did not want to provide a cake for them then the couple could have taken their business else where depriving the said baker of their business.

Given the amount of time it takes to resolves court cases like this, I imagine they did go elsewhere.

And I could swear Separate But Equal was ruled unconstitutional.

[Lost heros]

I don't see why the couple should be forced to go to a separate bakery.

I don't see why the baker should be forced to serve them.

Because he doesn't have the right to discriminate against a minority.

[Lunalia]

And the hardship suffered by a black woman on a bus is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the white person in being forced to act against their deeply held religious convictions that whites get seats before blacks?

We're not talking about governmental discrimination.

Okay the hardship suffered by a black family who wants to go to a nice restaurant but no nice restaurants will serve them is substantially less than the hardship suffered by a white restaurant owner in being forced to act against their deeply held religious convictions that whites are utterly superior to blacks in all ways and should not be forced to eat near them?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Because the hardship they suffer in being forced to go to another bakery is substantially less than the hardship suffered by the baker in being forced to act against his deeply held religious convictions.

It's against the baker's religion to make money? That's a weird religion.

Well, see, the problem with small businesses is that they operate under the biases and prejudices of the business owner.

You're thinking big corporations, think much smaller, think a regular baker who opened a small shop.

[Galter Gulcher]

I don't see why the baker should be forced to serve them.

Because he doesn't have the right to discriminate against a minority.

So the minority can discriminate against him?

[Auralia]

We're not talking about governmental discrimination.

Okay the hardship suffered by a black family who wants to go to a nice restaurant but no nice restaurants will serve them is substantially less than the hardship suffered by a white restaurant owner in being forced to act against their deeply held religious convictions that whites are utterly superior to blacks in all ways and should not be forced to eat near them?

Except there are plenty of good bakeries willing to service gay couples.

[Lost heros]

Because he doesn't have the right to discriminate against a minority.

So the minority can discriminate against him?

How is the minority discriminating against him?

[Gauthier]

Okay the hardship suffered by a black family who wants to go to a nice restaurant but no nice restaurants will serve them is substantially less than the hardship suffered by a white restaurant owner in being forced to act against their deeply held religious convictions that whites are utterly superior to blacks in all ways and should not be forced to eat near them?

Except there are plenty of good bakeries willing to service gay couples.

Ah yes, Separate But Equal.

[Slarvainian]

This is what always confuses me about the "religious freedom" argument. How does baking a freaking cake for two paying customers violate your freedom to practice your religion? It doesn't.

Because religious practice isn't limited to personal convictions and going to church every Sunday. Religious beliefs permeate one's whole life.

Judaism could also use that argument to ban pork from being sold in stores...

[Galter Gulcher]

So the minority can discriminate against him?

How is the minority discriminating against him?

By forcing him to serve them via the court system.

[Farnhamia]

Because he doesn't have the right to discriminate against a minority.

So the minority can discriminate against him?

How is he being discriminated against? They wanted to pay him for a cake. He refused because doing so would offend his religious scruples. The damage is self-inflicted. It also happened to be against the law to do what he did. He ought to have known that. Heck, he could have taken the money and given it to his church to use in furthering their work.

[Lunalia]

Because he doesn't have the right to discriminate against a minority.

So the minority can discriminate against him?

How is holding him accountable to a law discrimination? There's an anti discrimination law, he fell afoul of it, they reported him, he was punished.

If someone is raped, their rapist is held accountable.

If someone is murdered, their murderer is held accountable.

If someone is robbed, their robber is held accountable.

If someone is discriminated against, their discriminator is held accountable.

If you don't want someone who is discriminated against to report it, you also don't want rape victims to come forward, and you don't want murderers brought to justice or robbers caught. It's the same law.

[Lost heros]

It's against the baker's religion to make money? That's a weird religion.

Well, see, the problem with small businesses is that they operate under the biases and prejudices of the business owner.

You're thinking big corporations, think much smaller, think a regular baker who opened a small shop.

So it's against the baker's religion to make money needed to survive? Weird religion.