NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate] - Version 4

[Aragon-Francho]

Really...

Like I am clicking that

When you did it the first time I actually thought you were going to pull out evidence, but then I was Rick Roll'd and my jimmies were rustled.

[Pesda]

You missed my point. The bill would cut the price of coal power but not wind power. You could for example cut taxes on the materials that are needed to produce wind turbines. Is there a tax on metals? I don't know. If there is, cutting it would help all sorts of industry, not just energy industry.

Yes it would, did you not see electricity was included?

Let me try and explain again.
Mr Jones owns a coal power station. Per Kilowatt of electricity he makes, he spends £11 on coal. He sells the electricity for £20 per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Farmer Bob owns a wind farm. He doesn't need to spend money on fuel, but he still sells his electricity for £20 pounds per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Enter in tax cuts.
Due to the coal tax being eliminated, Mr Jones now spends £10 pounds on coal. He decides to be generous and passes on this pound cut in prices and sells his electricity for £19. Due the VAT on electricity being gone, this is what the consumer pays.
Farmer Bob doesn't save money by getting cheaper fuel. He continues to sell his electricity at the same price, although the consumer pays less due to the VAT on electricity being gone. They now pay £20 to farmer Bob.
Boom, electricity from coal is now cheaper than electricity from wind.

Unless, we cut VAT on various metals. Now the cost of building wind turbines is less, and farmer Bob can pass this on to the consumer. Not to mention, other industries are happy too, due to their materials being cheaper.
(I may be mistaken, is there currently a VAT on metals and other such materials? If not I'm sure we can find an other way to keep farmer Bob happy.)

[The Nihilistic view]

Yes it would, did you not see electricity was included?

Let me try and explain again.
Mr Jones owns a coal power station. Per Kilowatt of electricity he makes, he spends £11 on coal. He sells the electricity for £20 per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Farmer Bob owns a wind farm. He doesn't need to spend money on fuel, but he still sells his electricity for £20 pounds per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Enter in tax cuts.
Due to the coal tax being eliminated, Mr Jones now spends £10 pounds on coal. He decides to be generous and passes on this pound cut in prices and sells his electricity for £19. Due the VAT on electricity being gone, this is what the consumer pays.
Farmer Bob doesn't save money by getting cheaper fuel. He continues to sell his electricity at the same price, although the consumer pays less due to the VAT on electricity being gone. They now pay £20 to farmer Bob.
Boom, electricity from coal is now cheaper than electricity from wind.

Unless, we cut VAT on various metals. Now the cost of building wind turbines is less, and farmer Bob can pass this on to the consumer. Not to mention, other industries are happy too, due to their materials being cheaper.
(I may be mistaken, is there currently a VAT on metals and other such materials? If not I'm sure we can find an other way to keep farmer Bob happy.)

You do know how the Private electricity market work's I hope? Cos ^that is not it.

[Pesda]

Let me try and explain again.
Mr Jones owns a coal power station. Per Kilowatt of electricity he makes, he spends £11 on coal. He sells the electricity for £20 per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Farmer Bob owns a wind farm. He doesn't need to spend money on fuel, but he still sells his electricity for £20 pounds per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Enter in tax cuts.
Due to the coal tax being eliminated, Mr Jones now spends £10 pounds on coal. He decides to be generous and passes on this pound cut in prices and sells his electricity for £19. Due the VAT on electricity being gone, this is what the consumer pays.
Farmer Bob doesn't save money by getting cheaper fuel. He continues to sell his electricity at the same price, although the consumer pays less due to the VAT on electricity being gone. They now pay £20 to farmer Bob.
Boom, electricity from coal is now cheaper than electricity from wind.

Unless, we cut VAT on various metals. Now the cost of building wind turbines is less, and farmer Bob can pass this on to the consumer. Not to mention, other industries are happy too, due to their materials being cheaper.
(I may be mistaken, is there currently a VAT on metals and other such materials? If not I'm sure we can find an other way to keep farmer Bob happy.)

You do know how the Private electricity market work's I hope? Cos ^that is not it.

Please stop avoiding the point. Cutting the price of fuel makes more difference to an industry that needs fuel to exist, than and industry that doesn't need a fuel to exist.
What can you do that will help the wind power industry?

[New Bierstaat]

Let me try and explain again.
Mr Jones owns a coal power station. Per Kilowatt of electricity he makes, he spends £11 on coal. He sells the electricity for £20 per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Farmer Bob owns a wind farm. He doesn't need to spend money on fuel, but he still sells his electricity for £20 pounds per kilowatt, plus £2 VAT.
Enter in tax cuts.
Due to the coal tax being eliminated, Mr Jones now spends £10 pounds on coal. He decides to be generous and passes on this pound cut in prices and sells his electricity for £19. Due the VAT on electricity being gone, this is what the consumer pays.
Farmer Bob doesn't save money by getting cheaper fuel. He continues to sell his electricity at the same price, although the consumer pays less due to the VAT on electricity being gone. They now pay £20 to farmer Bob.
Boom, electricity from coal is now cheaper than electricity from wind.

Unless, we cut VAT on various metals. Now the cost of building wind turbines is less, and farmer Bob can pass this on to the consumer. Not to mention, other industries are happy too, due to their materials being cheaper.
(I may be mistaken, is there currently a VAT on metals and other such materials? If not I'm sure we can find an other way to keep farmer Bob happy.)

You do know how the Private electricity market work's I hope? Cos ^that is not it.

Right, the kilowatt is not even a unit of energy; you don't pay a fixed amount for a kilowatt. You pay for a kilojoule or a kilowatt-hour, as the kilowatt is a unit of power.

[The Nihilistic view]

You do know how the Private electricity market work's I hope? Cos ^that is not it.

Please stop avoiding the point. Cutting the price of fuel makes more difference to an industry that needs fuel to exist, than and industry that doesn't need a fuel to exist.
What can you do that will help the wind power industry?

Are you kidding me? It has free fuel already, if you want that kind of equality what we should really do is make fossil fuels free right. Cos after all Wind is free so why not coal?

[The Nihilistic view]

I mean on a logical level Pesda your example is false. You cut tax on metal's, it cut's cost for fossil fueled power stations too. So it does not achieve the effect's you desire. The disparity is still there.

[Pesda]

You do know how the Private electricity market work's I hope? Cos ^that is not it.

Right, the kilowatt is not even a unit of energy; you don't pay a fixed amount for a kilowatt. You pay for a kilojoule or a kilowatt-hour, as the kilowatt is a unit of power.

Oops. My apologies.

[Pesda]

Please stop avoiding the point. Cutting the price of fuel makes more difference to an industry that needs fuel to exist, than and industry that doesn't need a fuel to exist.
What can you do that will help the wind power industry?

Are you kidding me? It has free fuel already, if you want that kind of equality what we should really do is make fossil fuels free right. Cos after all Wind is free so why not coal?

I'm not trying to achieve equality for both sectors. I'm saying, if you help one sector, why can't you help the other sector? Especially since the second one needs to grow.

[Pesda]

I mean on a logical level Pesda your example is false. You cut tax on metal's, it cut's cost for fossil fueled power stations too. So it does not achieve the effect's you desire. The disparity is still there.

That was just an example. You think of something that would help the wind power industry.

[Byzantium Imperial]

Are you kidding me? It has free fuel already, if you want that kind of equality what we should really do is make fossil fuels free right. Cos after all Wind is free so why not coal?

I'm not trying to achieve equality for both sectors. I'm saying, if you help one sector, why can't you help the other sector? Especially since the second one needs to grow.

Id rather not subsidize coal or wind. Wind is inefficient, requires huge subsidies to be viable, and is terrible for local bird populations.
Nuclear is the way of the future, so screw wind. At least coal is easy.

[Pesda]

I'm not trying to achieve equality for both sectors. I'm saying, if you help one sector, why can't you help the other sector? Especially since the second one needs to grow.

Id rather not subsidize coal or wind. Wind is inefficient, requires huge subsidies to be viable, and is terrible for local bird populations.
Nuclear is the way of the future, so screw wind. At least coal is easy.

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

[Byzantium Imperial]

Id rather not subsidize coal or wind. Wind is inefficient, requires huge subsidies to be viable, and is terrible for local bird populations.
Nuclear is the way of the future, so screw wind. At least coal is easy.

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

Well coal produces ALOT of jobs to be fair, more then wind. And honestly, a country as small as ours isnt going to make that big of an environmental impact one way or the other (short of an oil spill)

[Pesda]

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

Well coal produces ALOT of jobs to be fair, more then wind. And honestly, a country as small as ours isnt going to make that big of an environmental impact one way or the other (short of an oil spill)

... While this is off topic, if the ppt will allow it I'll respond.
Coal produces a lot of jobs because it's a big sector. If nuclear was as big as coal is, it would also make a lot of jobs.
Our country may not produce a lot of CO2, but our size is not an excuse to make more. If every small country kept producing CO2 then climate change would continue being a problem.

[The Nihilistic view]

Id rather not subsidize coal or wind. Wind is inefficient, requires huge subsidies to be viable, and is terrible for local bird populations.
Nuclear is the way of the future, so screw wind. At least coal is easy.

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

So the fact that coal has to be paid for and wind is free is not enough of an advantage.........

[Pesda]

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

So the fact that coal has to be paid for and wind is free is not enough of an advantage.........

What is your point?

[People Who Say Ni]

I'm not here to discuss which is the best source of energy. I'm complaining that one sector is getting disproportionate help.

So the fact that coal has to be paid for and wind is free is not enough of an advantage.........

It's up to the companies to decide what fuels to invest in. Currently they are dominantly investing in fossil fuel. In order to mitigate climate change, we shouldn't give that industry too many tax breaks.

[The Nihilistic view]

So the fact that coal has to be paid for and wind is free is not enough of an advantage.........

It's up to the companies to decide what fuels to invest in. Currently they are dominantly investing in fossil fuel. In order to mitigate climate change, we shouldn't give that industry too many tax breaks.

It's about thought, when most of our power stations were built climate change was not a serious issue. Anyway The Energy ministers bill in the next section uses legislation to force them away. It's also a tax break for consumers not corporation tax.

[Regnum Dominae]

So the fact that coal has to be paid for and wind is free is not enough of an advantage.........

It's up to the companies to decide what fuels to invest in. Currently they are dominantly investing in fossil fuel. In order to mitigate climate change, we shouldn't give that industry too many tax breaks.

...and legislation is waiting in the queue that would mandate a fossil fuel phaseout, and mandates building of lots of nuclear along with renewables. This is a tax break intended to help consumers, specifically the poor.

[The Nihilistic view]

Business & Finance
To deal with issues pertinent to the Work, Commerce, and Treasury ministries

---

Section A:
- Bank Holidays and Annual Leave Act
- First Amendment to the Financial Act of 2013
- Tariff Regulation Act
- Essential Service Strike Restriction Act
-Government Donations Act
-Fair Taxation Act

Sorry about that power cut that has delayed the start of the vote, the janitorial service have assured me they have solved the problem with the power supply. So without wasting anymore time the vote shall now begin immediately. Usual rules apply.

[Regnum Dominae]

Bank Holidays and Annual Leave Act: NAY
First Amendment to the Financial Act of 2013: NAY
Tariff Regulation Act: AYE
Essential Service Strike Restriction Act: AYE
Government Donations Act: AYE
Fair Taxation Act: AYE

[The Nihilistic view]

Bank Holidays and Annual Leave Act Yay
First Amendment to the Financial Act of 2013 Nay
Tariff Regulation Act Yay
Essential Service Strike Restriction Act Yay
Government Donations Act Yay
Fair Taxation Act Yay

[Soviet Canuckistan]

Nay to all.

[Yanalia]

BHALA: Aye
FAFA: Nay
TRA: Aye
ESSRA: Nay
GDA: Aye
FTA: Abstain

[Maklohi Vai]

BHALA: Abstain
FAFA: Nay
TRA: Aye
ESSRA: Abstain
GDA: Aye
FTA: Nay