NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate]

[Royalsoldiers]

CURRENT QUEUE FOR LEGISLATION

1. Governmental Services Act
2. Ministry of Research and Astronomy Reform Act
3. National Culture Act
4. National Financing and Accounting Act
5. Legality and Restrictions Act
6. Senatorial Procedures Act
7. Anti-Corruption Act
8. International Treaties Ratification Act
9. Economic Oversight Act
10. Death with Dignity Act
11. Universal Credit
12. Internet Registration Act
13. Voting out business management without holding shares is stupid idea and illegal
14. Standards of Daily Measurement Act
15. Condemnation of United States National Security Agency project: US-984XN
16. Educational Framework Establishment Act
17. Animal Protection Act
18. Amend Transportation Ministry Provision Act 2013
19. Amend National Census Bureau Establishment Act
20. Repeal Commerce Ministry Act
21. Military Discipline and Structure Act
21. Military Discipline and Structure Act
22. Corps Creation Charter
23. Commercial Usage of Railways Act

Thanks Ainin.

[Pesda]

I take issue with the Public Education Act, part of the Act being debated.
- If every child pass to pass a GAT before moving on in thier education, that means that 5 year olds will have to pass an exam. I consider it inappropriate for children this young to be subject to a test of this importence. Also, if this test is given annually, then children will be focusing on learning how to pass exams, instead of learning skills they can use after leaving education. Wouldn't it be better to either start these tests at a higher age, and have them less often, or have teachers decide if the children are ready to move on to the next grade by considering the child's work throughout the year?

This, so very much this. Standardized testing must come from someone's imagined, oversimplified model of the world. Its popularity is one of the many enduring tragedies of education law.

This prevents me from supporting the bill but I'm also concerned about protections for people with disabilities and those with different sensory/environmental needs and learning styles, like autistics. It sounds like the routine torture of the latter, or from a policy perspective at least their inability to stop it, would be the order of the day.

Yep:

2. It will mandatory for children to attend at least 10,500 instructional hours of school, be it at either public, private, or home school. Parents who knowingly prevent their children from meeting this requirement may be subject to fines of up to $10,000 for each 1,500 hours of school missed and 3 months of jail for each 1,500 hours of school missed.

There should be an option for (at least) students with disabilities and different sensory needs to, instead, give a 'thesis defense' of their education. A rigid hours requirement (and throwing the parents in jail?) is terrible policy, and would cause a massive amount of needless suffering. A simple committee of pediatricians, child psychiatrists/psychologists, and autism and disability experts would do wonders.

Why we're throwing any non-murdering/raping parent in jail is beyond me anyhow, unless their obligations to their children are complete. Garnish their wages and make them do community service.

Also, wthis is potentially troubling as it could presumably create a loophole through which those above 20 could be prevented from attending public tertiary education:

9. Nobody above the age of 20 may attend a public school.

Adding something making it specifically refer to these schools would be comforting.

Most of the better educated places in the world have 7 hour school days or more.

And how is the children's health doing? Considering Japan's enduring teen suicide rate, I'm guessing not always well?

Would you like to suggest an alternative to the original bill, then? I'm thinking of making a post showing different people's amendments to the bill, so we can decide which version to vote on.

[Pesda]

I think the filibuster started by senator CTALNH has gone on long enough. Lets return to debating governmental services bill omnibus which includes Universal Healthcare Act, Small Business Assistance Act, Public Education Act, Universal Credit and Educational Framework Establishment Act.

This bill includes all five of those bills? If so, I think that the Public Education Act and the Educational Framework Establishment Act contradict each other.

[Pesda]

Well, children in general I dunno, but teenagers are now known to have a healthy sleep cycle that involves waking up and going to sleep later than younger and older people. Hence why teens are so groggy and irritable in school all day. This is exactly why the time of start and end should not be legislated - it must be flexible to growing scientific knowledge.

What about we give the local school board the ability to determine when the school day starts and ends?

I agree with this. Teenagers need to start their school day later, and the youngest children need to have a shorter school day, in my opinion.

[New Zepuha]

What about we give the local school board the ability to determine when the school day starts and ends?

I agree with this. Teenagers need to start their school day later, and the youngest children need to have a shorter school day, in my opinion.

Agreed, but younger children typically have the energy to carry on productively through a long day.

[Free South Califas]

They could de facto ban it by imposing stringent and unjustifiable restrictions like requiring £100,000,000 deposit to the state before private school can be set up etc.

Well if they do, then obviously it is in line with the wishes of the people of the district.

And could easily be abolished by judges anyway, could it not?

No district will ban privet schools, it's an arbbatrary think to do in the first place.

Districts under control of communists or USLP will certainly do so.

"Certainly" now? I don't recall you running this little assumption past any actual Communists. Even then, home schooling is still allowed, so nobody is "forced" to learn things exactly as the government fits. You just want greedy people to turn profits from the provision of a basic service that every child has a right to receive on equal footing.

Of course, if private schools end up discriminating against students with disabilities (and I have not yet heard of a situation where this is not the case), perhaps you have a point that they shouldn't be allowed. Private schools are borrowing/stealing public legitimacy in the state licensing process; if the public sees fit to regulate them, so much the better.

From Senator Nepal's perspective, it seems to.

Its not from my perspective, its the letter that says effective banning it is allowed since it simply says "restrictions".

The presence and power of our judiciary implies "reasonable" restrictions.

It doesn't say "private schools must be legal", but is that necessary for us to include?

Yes, or say "fair and reasonable restrictions". Or even better prevent school districts from regulating schools and leave that job to central government.

This from the freedom/options guy
That being said, there is nothing wrong with adding "fair and reasonable".

[Great Nepal]

I think the filibuster started by senator CTALNH has gone on long enough. Lets return to debating governmental services bill omnibus which includes Universal Healthcare Act, Small Business Assistance Act, Public Education Act, Universal Credit and Educational Framework Establishment Act.

This bill includes all five of those bills?

Yes, it was given admin approval soon.

If so, I think that the Public Education Act and the Educational Framework Establishment Act contradict each other.

Where?

[Royalsoldiers]

I move to add the Commercial Usage of Railways Act to the Economic Oversight Act omnibus.

[Free South Califas]

Well, children in general I dunno, but teenagers are now known to have a healthy sleep cycle that involves waking up and going to sleep later than younger and older people. Hence why teens are so groggy and irritable in school all day. This is exactly why the time of start and end should not be legislated - it must be flexible to growing scientific knowledge.

What about we give the local school board the ability to determine when the school day starts and ends?

I support this, although ideally I'd also like a stated requirement that the boards consider the latest relevant research in their decisions. (Or directly hand that power to a medical/professional board, and/or a referendum, but whatever.)

[The New Sea Territory]

Districts under control of communists or USLP will certainly do so.

"Certainly" now? I don't recall you running this little assumption past any actual Communists. Even then, home schooling is still allowed, so nobody is "forced" to learn things exactly as the government fits. You just want greedy people to turn profits from the provision of a basic service that every child has a right to receive on equal footing.

Of course, if private schools end up discriminating against students with disabilities (and I have not yet heard of a situation where this is not the case), perhaps you have a point that they shouldn't be allowed. Private schools are borrowing/stealing public legitimacy in the state licensing process; if the public sees fit to regulate them, so much the better.

Every child has the right to be born, to be free and to own property. Education is not any of those. That is something that has to be bought. Would you rather it be bought from a government that violates peoples right to do so or a private school which simply makes money?

[Great Nepal]

CURRENT QUEUE FOR LEGISLATION

1. Governmental Services Act
2. Ministry of Research and Astronomy Reform Act
3. National Culture Act
4. National Financing and Accounting Act
5. Legality and Restrictions Act
6. Senatorial Procedures Act
7. Anti-Corruption Act
8. International Treaties Ratification Act
9. Economic Oversight Act
10. Death with Dignity Act
11. Universal Credit
12. Internet Registration Act
13. Voting out business management without holding shares is stupid idea and illegal
14. Standards of Daily Measurement Act
15. Condemnation of United States National Security Agency project: US-984XN
16. Educational Framework Establishment Act
17. Animal Protection Act
18. Amend Transportation Ministry Provision Act 2013
19. Amend National Census Bureau Establishment Act
20. Repeal Commerce Ministry Act
21. Military Discipline and Structure Act
21. Military Discipline and Structure Act
22. Corps Creation Charter
23. Commercial Usage of Railways Act

Universal Credit and Educational Framework Establishment Act is now included in Governmental Services Act.

[Ainin]

CURRENT QUEUE FOR LEGISLATION

1. Governmental Services Act
2. Ministry of Research and Astronomy Reform Act
3. National Culture Act
4. National Financing and Accounting Act
5. Legality and Restrictions Act
6. Senatorial Procedures Act
7. Anti-Corruption Act
8. International Treaties Ratification Act
9. Economic Oversight Act
10. Death with Dignity Act
11. Internet Registration Act
12. Voting out business management without holding shares is stupid idea and illegal
13. Standards of Daily Measurement Act
14. Condemnation of United States National Security Agency project: US-984XN
15. Animal Protection Act
16. Amend Transportation Ministry Provision Act 2013
17. Amend National Census Bureau Establishment Act
18. Repeal Commerce Ministry Act
19. Military Discipline and Structure Act
20. Military Discipline and Structure Act
21. Corps Creation Charter
22. Commercial Usage of Railways Act

[Oneracon]

Would you rather it be bought from a government that violates peoples right to do so or a private school which simply makes money?

I don't see any right to buy education, Senator.

[Ainin]

"Certainly" now? I don't recall you running this little assumption past any actual Communists. Even then, home schooling is still allowed, so nobody is "forced" to learn things exactly as the government fits. You just want greedy people to turn profits from the provision of a basic service that every child has a right to receive on equal footing.

Of course, if private schools end up discriminating against students with disabilities (and I have not yet heard of a situation where this is not the case), perhaps you have a point that they shouldn't be allowed. Private schools are borrowing/stealing public legitimacy in the state licensing process; if the public sees fit to regulate them, so much the better.

Every child has the right to be born, to be free and to own property. Education is not any of those. That is something that has to be bought. Would you rather it be bought from a government that violates peoples right to do so or a private school which simply makes money?

Actually, according to the International Law Act, passed two weeks ago:

Article 28

1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:
(a) Make primary education compulsory and available free to all;
(c) Make higher education accessible to all on the basis of capacity by every appropriate means;
(d) Make educational and vocational information and guidance available and accessible to all children;
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.

[Yanalia]

Every child has the right to be born, to be free and to own property. Education is not any of those. That is something that has to be bought. Would you rather it be bought from a government that violates peoples right to do so or a private school which simply makes money?

Actually, according to the International Law Act, passed two weeks ago:

Article 28

1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:
(a) Make primary education compulsory and available free to all;
(c) Make higher education accessible to all on the basis of capacity by every appropriate means;
(d) Make educational and vocational information and guidance available and accessible to all children;
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.

That was a fantastic act, by the way. My most sincere thanks. It just keeps on paying off in every debate.

[Free South Califas]

Actually, according to the International Law Act, passed two weeks ago:

Article 28

1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:
(a) Make primary education compulsory and available free to all;
(c) Make higher education accessible to all on the basis of capacity by every appropriate means;
(d) Make educational and vocational information and guidance available and accessible to all children;
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.

That was a fantastic act, by the way. My most sincere thanks. It just keeps on paying off in every debate.

I move to remove EFEA from the omnibus and/or queue as possible, due to conflict with ILA.
(1) EFEA fails to make primary education available free to all (if there is any situation in which students are made to accept vouchers)
(2) EFEA fails to explore or proactively engage 'every appropriate means' of making higher education 'accessible to all on the basis of capacity', i.e. free if at all possible. If it is impossible ot provide higher education for free, the state must provide public universities which (a) may provide free education later if possible and (b) in the meantime, are only allowed to charge minimum operating fees after as much funding has been raised through progressive taxation as is feasible.

[Free South Califas]

Even without ILA:

"Certainly" now? I don't recall you running this little assumption past any actual Communists. Even then, home schooling is still allowed, so nobody is "forced" to learn things exactly as the government fits. You just want greedy people to turn profits from the provision of a basic service that every child has a right to receive on equal footing.

Of course, if private schools end up discriminating against students with disabilities (and I have not yet heard of a situation where this is not the case), perhaps you have a point that they shouldn't be allowed. Private schools are borrowing/stealing public legitimacy in the state licensing process; if the public sees fit to regulate them, so much the better.

Every child has the right to be born,

Nonsensical - birth implies 'child'. An unborn entity is called a zygote, embryo or fetus, not a child.

to be free

From discrimination, among many other things, yes.

and to own property

Personal property, sure, and that which can be gained without exploiting anyone.

Education is not any of those.

Your statement of rights is ideological pablum, and has little to do with the conception of rights that is accepted here.

That is something that has to be bought.

Wrong - freedom requires equal educational opportunity.

[Great Nepal]

That was a fantastic act, by the way. My most sincere thanks. It just keeps on paying off in every debate.

I move to remove EFEA from the omnibus and/or queue as possible, due to conflict with ILA.
(1) EFEA fails to make primary education available free to all (if there is any situation in which students are made to accept vouchers)
(2) EFEA fails to explore or proactively engage 'every appropriate means' of making higher education 'accessible to all on the basis of capacity', i.e. free if at all possible. If it is impossible ot provide higher education for free, the state must provide public universities which (a) may provide free education later if possible and (b) in the meantime, are only allowed to charge minimum operating fees after as much funding has been raised through progressive taxation as is feasible.

1. Yes, because that is not the scope of the legislation as stated in Section 8, public school can be established by another piece of legislation.
2. Again, it is not the scope of the legislation. It sets maximum tuition fee except for top 10 universities and lets another piece of legislation deal with public universities as per Section 8.

[Free South Califas]

This, so very much this. Standardized testing must come from someone's imagined, oversimplified model of the world. Its popularity is one of the many enduring tragedies of education law.

This prevents me from supporting the bill but I'm also concerned about protections for people with disabilities and those with different sensory/environmental needs and learning styles, like autistics. It sounds like the routine torture of the latter, or from a policy perspective at least their inability to stop it, would be the order of the day.

Yep:There should be an option for (at least) students with disabilities and different sensory needs to, instead, give a 'thesis defense' of their education. A rigid hours requirement (and throwing the parents in jail?) is terrible policy, and would cause a massive amount of needless suffering. A simple committee of pediatricians, child psychiatrists/psychologists, and autism and disability experts would do wonders.

Why we're throwing any non-murdering/raping parent in jail is beyond me anyhow, unless their obligations to their children are complete. Garnish their wages and make them do community service.

Also, wthis is potentially troubling as it could presumably create a loophole through which those above 20 could be prevented from attending public tertiary education:Adding something making it specifically refer to these schools would be comforting.


And how is the children's health doing? Considering Japan's enduring teen suicide rate, I'm guessing not always well?

Would you like to suggest an alternative to the original bill, then? I'm thinking of making a post showing different people's amendments to the bill, so we can decide which version to vote on.

I will begin drafting amendments at my earliest opportunity. If anyone else thinks of language to incorporate my idea first, I will happily support that too, of course. In the meantime, if the other Senators would indulge me for the sake of the important cause of protecting disabled childrens' mental, emotional and physical health, I'd appreciate if we could keep debate open until either the disability/autism/flexibility issue is resolved or a couple of concrete suggestions have been made

(I specifically mentioned autism and implied that PTSD and sensory integration disorders may also qualify in certain cases, but it also occurs to me that chronic nerve pain conditions like my own could prevent students from fruitfully contributing to an inflexible 7 hour day.)

This bill includes all five of those bills?

Yes, it was given admin approval soon.

If so, I think that the Public Education Act and the Educational Framework Establishment Act contradict each other.

Where?

PEA mandates free education.

[Ainin]

Section III of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article VI of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights guarantee a "right to live". Does that mean murder is illegal?

[Great Nepal]

PEA mandates free education.

and EFEA does nothing to promote nor hinder that, its out of the scope of the bill. Section 8.

[Oneracon]

Section III of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article VI of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights guarantee a "right to live". Does that mean murder is illegal?

One would hope so.

[Wolfmanne]

Here is proposed omnibus motions with supports level of support:-
1. Motion to omnibus 16 (universal credit) and 22 (education framework act) into 2 (government services act) (needs admin approval only)

2. Motion to omnibus 9 (common wealth) and 11 (non proliferation) into the International treaties act (new omnibus, will take common wealth's place) (motion succeeds)

3. Motion to omnibus 21 (national drug safety act) into 6 (Legality and restrictions act) (there will be two drug proposals in the new omnibus, it allows us to pick between them) (motion succeeds)

4. Motion to omnibus 14 (First lla amendment) and 15 (first Republican executive amendment) into 8 (senate procedures act) (motion succeeds)

5. motion to omnibus 10 (basic utilities act), 12 (railways act), and 13 (food vendor act) into the Economy oversight act (new omnibus, will take basic utilities place) (needs one seconds)

6. Motion to combine the Time Zone Act (19) and the System of Measurement Act (23) into an omnibus by the name of the Standards of Daily Measurement Act. The reasons being time and measurement systems both involve measuring an amount or rotational period. (motion succeeds)

7. Motion to combine railways act (12) into the government services act (2)(needs 4 seconds and admin approval).

---

I give admin approval to 2,3,4,5 and 6.
I am not giving approval to 1 because two of them are my bills and not to 7 because its my motion however I encourage other admins to do so.

1 has my admin approval.

[Free South Califas]

I move to remove EFEA from the omnibus and/or queue as possible, due to conflict with ILA.
(1) EFEA fails to make primary education available free to all (if there is any situation in which students are made to accept vouchers)
(2) EFEA fails to explore or proactively engage 'every appropriate means' of making higher education 'accessible to all on the basis of capacity', i.e. free if at all possible. If it is impossible ot provide higher education for free, the state must provide public universities which (a) may provide free education later if possible and (b) in the meantime, are only allowed to charge minimum operating fees after as much funding has been raised through progressive taxation as is feasible.

1. Yes, because that is not the scope of the legislation as stated in Section 8, public school can be established by another piece of legislation.
2. Again, it is not the scope of the legislation. It sets maximum tuition fee except for top 10 universities and lets another piece of legislation deal with public universities as per Section 8.

On re-read, I apologize and withdraw my motions. However:

d) There shall be Province Level Examination (PLE), which shall be held at every province as established by government subdivision act.
...
a) Secondary education shall refer to mandatory education, starting when child gets enough percentage in Provence Level Examination to be accepted by secondary school and lasting for five years.

This does conflict with PEA, in a certain sense, or worse, create overlapping standardized tests. Even worse, it still assumes a government structure from a bill that hasn't been passed yet, and IIRC hasn't even been queued, which it calls by the wrong name! The CP will be proposing a local governments bill which doesn't establish provinces or any other division among arbitrary geographical lines.

[Great Nepal]

d) There shall be Province Level Examination (PLE), which shall be held at every province as established by government subdivision act.
...
a) Secondary education shall refer to mandatory education, starting when child gets enough percentage in Provence Level Examination to be accepted by secondary school and lasting for five years.

This does conflict with PEA, in a certain sense, or worse, create overlapping standardized tests.

Yes, it creates overlapping examination. Perhaps you could change the bill to ensure there is no GAT when PLE or SLC happens. So basically, every year except in year 5 and year 10 there is GAT and in those years there is PLE and SLC respectively.

Even worse, it still assumes a government structure from a bill that hasn't been passed yet, and IIRC hasn't even been queued, which it calls by the wrong name! The CP will be proposing a local governments bill which doesn't establish provinces or any other division among arbitrary geographical lines.

Province in EFEA = Districts in PEA.