NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate]

[Regnum Dominae]

In addition to this, the state will recognize the right of workers to choose to change the nature of their workplace to more democratic forms via fair and democratic elections. In such cases that workers decide to change the nature of their workplace, the state will be obliged to compensate the present owners in accordance with the nature and extent of compensation (as determined by a court of law).

Id say thats pretty dam unfair when the workers you're as the boss, paying are legally protected when they say, "I dont really feel like it". In addition, unpopular bosses can often be more efficient then bosses who coddle the workers. Not always, but sometimes.

Most workers are capable of understanding the difference between fair managerial policy and "mollycoddling" and most the only case in which I can see workers voting out a boss is in situations where A) The boss is being incredibly unfair or B) incompetent

If the workers don't like it, they can go work somewhere else. Or they can leave and start their own socialist cooperative where they all hold hands and sing kumbayah while getting nothing done.
They do not have the right to overthrow an already functioning company.
If my sister and I vote to take your car, do we have the right to your car?

[Potenco]

Most workers are capable of understanding the difference between fair managerial policy and "mollycoddling" and most the only case in which I can see workers voting out a boss is in situations where A) The boss is being incredibly unfair or B) incompetent

If the workers don't like it, they can go work somewhere else. Or they can leave and start their own socialist cooperative where they all hold hands and sing kumbayah while getting nothing done.
They do not have the right to overthrow an already functioning company.
If my sister and I vote to take your car, do we have the right to your car?

The difference is that in taking over a company, one is not just taking over the assets but the means of production. Considering that both the workers and the boss are the producers, they are all entitled to a piece. In being the means of production, the workers are partially owning the company.

The boss needs the workers but the workers dont need the boss. If the workers were able to manage themselves effectively enough to elect-out the boss, they are capable of running the workplace. This would make the means of production far more efficient.

Fooey to your Ayn Rand based values!

[Byzantium Imperial]

If the workers don't like it, they can go work somewhere else. Or they can leave and start their own socialist cooperative where they all hold hands and sing kumbayah while getting nothing done.
They do not have the right to overthrow an already functioning company.
If my sister and I vote to take your car, do we have the right to your car?

The difference is that in taking over a company, one is not just taking over the assets but the means of production. Considering that both the workers and the boss are the producers, they are all entitled to a piece. In being the means of production, the workers are partially owning the company.

The boss needs the workers but the workers dont need the boss. If the workers were able to manage themselves effectively enough to elect-out the boss, they are capable of running the workplace. This would make the means of production far more efficient.

Fooey to your Ayn Rand based values!

Boss owns factory (or at least runs). Workers work at his factory. Therefore workers work for him and do what they are told.

I dont see "replace boss" anywhere, do you?

[Regnum Dominae]

If the workers don't like it, they can go work somewhere else. Or they can leave and start their own socialist cooperative where they all hold hands and sing kumbayah while getting nothing done.
They do not have the right to overthrow an already functioning company.
If my sister and I vote to take your car, do we have the right to your car?

The difference is that in taking over a company, one is not just taking over the assets but the means of production. Considering that both the workers and the boss are the producers, they are all entitled to a piece. In being the means of production, the workers are partially owning the company.

The boss needs the workers but the workers dont need the boss. If the workers were able to manage themselves effectively enough to elect-out the boss, they are capable of running the workplace. This would make the means of production far more efficient.

Fooey to your Ayn Rand based values!

I really don't care about all this "means of production" nonsense. It's blatantly false and incorrect.

And I don't care if they're capable of running the workplace, if that's really true they should go start their own business instead of co-opting an already existing one.

And I fucking hate Rand. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Geilinor]

Aye: Limiting Legislation Act
Aye: Secular State Act
Aye: International Law Act
Abstain: Worker Empowerment Act

[Ainin]

If the workers don't like it, they can go work somewhere else. Or they can leave and start their own socialist cooperative where they all hold hands and sing kumbayah while getting nothing done.
They do not have the right to overthrow an already functioning company.
If my sister and I vote to take your car, do we have the right to your car?

The difference is that in taking over a company, one is not just taking over the assets but the means of production. Considering that both the workers and the boss are the producers, they are all entitled to a piece. In being the means of production, the workers are partially owning the company.

The boss needs the workers but the workers dont need the boss. If the workers were able to manage themselves effectively enough to elect-out the boss, they are capable of running the workplace. This would make the means of production far more efficient.

Fooey to your Ayn Rand based values!

If me and my mother carpool with you, can we vote you out of your car?

[Potenco]

The difference is that in taking over a company, one is not just taking over the assets but the means of production. Considering that both the workers and the boss are the producers, they are all entitled to a piece. In being the means of production, the workers are partially owning the company.

The boss needs the workers but the workers dont need the boss. If the workers were able to manage themselves effectively enough to elect-out the boss, they are capable of running the workplace. This would make the means of production far more efficient.

Fooey to your Ayn Rand based values!

If me and my mother carpool with you, can we vote you out of your car?

If this were some bizarre flintstones bus and you all ran it and controlled it while I just shouted at you from the front, that allegory would work. Otherwise, its an asinine attempt to make me look asinine

[Geilinor]

There isn't supposed to be debate in the chamber during voting.

[Byzantium Imperial]

There isn't supposed to be debate in the chamber.

In this case its fully relevant though

[Regnum Dominae]

There isn't supposed to be debate in the chamber during voting.

I shouldn't have taken his bait. I apologize.

[Timsvill]

]

VOTE COUNT
Voting ends 2013/06/08 at 04:15 UTC (24 hour time format guys)

Limiting Legislation Act
For: 47
Against: 22
Abstain: 2

Secular State Act
For: 58
Against: 9
Abstain: 4

International Law Act
For: 51
Against: 18
Abstain: 2

Worker Empowerment Act
For: 31
Against: 38
Abstain: 4

I changed my aye to a nay on ILA


As a reminder to the commies among us, you are allowed to cast a ballot on all 4 laws. Not just the Worker Empowerment act (minor scoff)

Edit: i got the vote right after this post

Aye to all!

[Potenco]

I apoogize for the inappropriate placement of my remarks, my fellow Senators. I need to work on my parliamentary procedure

[Geilinor]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

[Bleckonia]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

Just make sure there's no shitty "workers can take control of the company" clauses. Maybe put in a reasonable minimum wage ($8-10, not this $30 garbage that the commies want to push), anti-discrimination against union or non-union workers, and a working week of 40 hours with optional overtime. I'd vote for a bill more like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a moderate libertarian, not really an extreme one.

[Greater Pokarnia]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

If the WEA does fail I still want to see the right to unionize protected no matter what.

[Geilinor]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

Just make sure there's no shitty "workers can take control of the company" clauses. Maybe put in a reasonable minimum wage ($8-10, not this $30 garbage that the commies want to push), anti-discrimination against union or non-union workers, and a working week of 40 hours with optional overtime. I'd vote for a bill more like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a moderate libertarian, not really an extreme one.

That's what I'm aiming to write.

[Ainin]

Just make sure there's no shitty "workers can take control of the company" clauses. Maybe put in a reasonable minimum wage ($8-10, not this $30 garbage that the commies want to push), anti-discrimination against union or non-union workers, and a working week of 40 hours with optional overtime. I'd vote for a bill more like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a moderate libertarian, not really an extreme one.

That's what I'm aiming to write.

I support your effort vehemently.

[Geilinor]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

If the WEA does fail I still want to see the right to unionize protected no matter what.

The right to unionize will be present.

[Threlizdun]

Limiting Legislation Act: AGAINST

Secular State Act: FOR

International Law Act: FOR

Worker Empowerment Act: FOR

[Darmen]

I vote FOR the LLA.
I vote AGAINST the SSA.
I vote AGAINST the ILA.
I vote AGAINST the WEA.

[Bering]

Limiting Legislation Act: Aye

Secular State Act: Aye

International Law Act: Aye

Worker Empowerment Act: Aye

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

AGAINST all.

[Timsvill]

Should the WEA fail, I am currently making a draft for an alternate Worker Rights Act.

Just make sure there's no shitty "workers can take control of the company" clauses. Maybe put in a reasonable minimum wage ($8-10, not this $30 garbage that the commies want to push), anti-discrimination against union or non-union workers, and a working week of 40 hours with optional overtime. I'd vote for a bill more like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a moderate libertarian, not really an extreme one.

Your shedding us commies in the wrong light man!

[Pragia]

LLA: Aye
SSA: Aye
ILA: Aye
WEA: Nay

[Jetan]

Just make sure there's no shitty "workers can take control of the company" clauses. Maybe put in a reasonable minimum wage ($8-10, not this $30 garbage that the commies want to push), anti-discrimination against union or non-union workers, and a working week of 40 hours with optional overtime. I'd vote for a bill more like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a moderate libertarian, not really an extreme one.

Your shedding us commies in the wrong light man!

Well, you guys did manage to ruin a perfectly acceptable and sorely needed piece of legistlation by adding in all the partisan crap about workers taking over.