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by Vazdania » Mon May 06, 2013 9:29 pm
ONLY CMP members or Members of other parties on official business.
by Irredento » Mon May 06, 2013 9:30 pm

by Irredento » Mon May 06, 2013 9:35 pm

by Finium » Mon May 06, 2013 9:35 pm

by Finium » Mon May 06, 2013 9:36 pm
Irredento wrote:Vazdania wrote:You're not suppose to be posting here.ONLY CMP members or Members of other parties on official business.
Well, other party members do sometimes post here, which is fine so long as they aren't rude or attempting to argue in favour of communist ideology like that one CTANLH guy the other day.
Finium is a filthy traitor but I see no reason we shouldn't hear what he has to say for himself before pelting him with eggs and singing God Save the King.

by Finium » Mon May 06, 2013 9:39 pm

by Vazdania » Mon May 06, 2013 9:40 pm
Irredento wrote:Vazdania wrote:This is what happens when you don't work with the other parties.
Hm? I don't know if you have been gone lately, Senator, but we are working with other parties. Quite closely. In fact, I would say that the NIFP in particular are our allies at this point. We're also getting quite friendly with the Objectivists and, furthermore, the newly formed Reform Party will be our allies on social issues. What I refused to work with was the communists and socialists.
Whereas Finium is now a Progressive Conservative Party member, in a coalition with the Communist Party, he has admitted that he wanted to turn the CMP into a single issue party and is now attempting to disband our militia and pass a gun control bill. Why in God's name would I want to work with that?
The Classical Monarchist Party is a conservative party and proud of it. We will work with our fellow conservatives in the Senate. The leftists are our enemies. If you feel so strongly that Finium is doing the right thing and I am doing something wrong, you are welcome to join him with the republicans and liberals in the PCP.

by Irredento » Mon May 06, 2013 9:55 pm
Vazdania wrote:Its important to work with both the communists and socialists

by Maryginia » Mon May 06, 2013 10:22 pm
Irredento wrote:Vazdania wrote:This is what happens when you don't work with the other parties.
Hm? I don't know if you have been gone lately, Senator, but we are working with other parties. Quite closely. In fact, I would say that the NIFP in particular are our allies at this point. We're also getting quite friendly with the Objectivists and, furthermore, the newly formed Reform Party will be our allies on social issues. What I refused to work with was the communists and socialists.
Whereas Finium is now a Progressive Conservative Party member, in a coalition with the Communist Party, he has admitted that he wanted to turn the CMP into a single issue party and is now attempting to disband our militia and pass a gun control bill. Why in God's name would I want to work with that?
The Classical Monarchist Party is a conservative party and proud of it. We will work with our fellow conservatives in the Senate. The leftists are our enemies. If you feel so strongly that Finium is doing the right thing and I am doing something wrong, you are welcome to join him with the republicans and liberals in the PCP.

by Irredento » Mon May 06, 2013 10:49 pm
Maryginia wrote:Aside from the Gun Control debate when Have we been friendly with the Libertairan bloc, IIRC you turned down a coalition suggestion put up by myself and Distruzio, based on the fact that they had a dove in their logo, and republican in their name.

by Maryginia » Mon May 06, 2013 10:53 pm

by Britcan » Mon May 06, 2013 11:41 pm
Irredento wrote:Britcan wrote:1) Actually in one instance the only thing my friend had on him was a battered old phone so the mugger gave it back, but anyway that's not the point. The time it would have taken them to draw a weapon (they were all under 18 so wouldn't have had one anyway even under US gun laws) the mugger could well have used their weapon. I doubt any of them would say that if they'd been armed they would have come out of it any better.
2) However my bill doesn't ban super soakers due to them not being designed for firing noxious liquids so there is no issue. If you want to restrict noxious substances be my guest.
3) That's not banning guns though is it? So you weren't telling the truth were you? Divair quit for entirely different reasons, as Ovisterra stated.
1) Guns act as a deterrent and putting a bullet in a mugger's back as he runs away with your phone is a good way to get it back. I think you know as well as I do that self-defence isn't something that is only required in one's own residence, Senator.
2) Should this gun ban be passed, I'll be sure to get my engineer friend to work on new noxious gas-ready super soaker weapons for us. He's kind of annoying to play DnD with because he'll always find a way to invent machine guns and so on out of random parts in a medieval setting. This will be quite similar to the problems some countries have in banning weapons. Pretty soon, people like you might start campaigning to have 3D printers banned, for example. Basically what I'm saying here is that your proposal is far too vague and will have all sorts of unintended consequences. I would oppose a proper gun ban anyway but I think I can get even centrists onboard with the anti-bill side if you don't put a lot more detail into your proposal.
3) It is an attempt to ban certain guns for use in paramilitaries which is indeed a "gun ban" as I put it. Also, Divair is irrelevant to this argument as I have already addressed what Ovisterra has told me about him.

by Irredento » Mon May 06, 2013 11:44 pm

by Diopolis » Tue May 07, 2013 5:51 am
Britcan wrote:Irredento wrote:1) Guns act as a deterrent and putting a bullet in a mugger's back as he runs away with your phone is a good way to get it back. I think you know as well as I do that self-defence isn't something that is only required in one's own residence, Senator.
2) Should this gun ban be passed, I'll be sure to get my engineer friend to work on new noxious gas-ready super soaker weapons for us. He's kind of annoying to play DnD with because he'll always find a way to invent machine guns and so on out of random parts in a medieval setting. This will be quite similar to the problems some countries have in banning weapons. Pretty soon, people like you might start campaigning to have 3D printers banned, for example. Basically what I'm saying here is that your proposal is far too vague and will have all sorts of unintended consequences. I would oppose a proper gun ban anyway but I think I can get even centrists onboard with the anti-bill side if you don't put a lot more detail into your proposal.
3) It is an attempt to ban certain guns for use in paramilitaries which is indeed a "gun ban" as I put it. Also, Divair is irrelevant to this argument as I have already addressed what Ovisterra has told me about him.
1) You would advocate killing a person who presented no immediate threat to you? If a mugger has left with your phone the proper corse of action should be to report them to the police not shooting them. Also wouldn't the mugger take your gun off you when he took your belongings off of you?
2) However this bill doesn't ban super-soakers, which was your objection. Not banning everything that can be turned into an improvised weapon doesn't mean you should oppose it.
3) A gun ban implies a total ban on all guns. This was a limitation of the powers of the paramilitaries. You are right in saying Divair is irrelevant to this argument which makes me wonder why you brought him up.

by Britcan » Tue May 07, 2013 6:14 am
Diopolis wrote:Britcan wrote:1) You would advocate killing a person who presented no immediate threat to you? If a mugger has left with your phone the proper corse of action should be to report them to the police not shooting them. Also wouldn't the mugger take your gun off you when he took your belongings off of you?
2) However this bill doesn't ban super-soakers, which was your objection. Not banning everything that can be turned into an improvised weapon doesn't mean you should oppose it.
3) A gun ban implies a total ban on all guns. This was a limitation of the powers of the paramilitaries. You are right in saying Divair is irrelevant to this argument which makes me wonder why you brought him up.
2. "designed for the discharge of noxious fluid or any other substance" Water is, I believe, "any other substance"

by Azurand » Tue May 07, 2013 6:15 am
Vazdania wrote:Its important to work with both the communists and socialists

by Diopolis » Tue May 07, 2013 6:18 am
Britcan wrote:Diopolis wrote:2. "designed for the discharge of noxious fluid or any other substance" Water is, I believe, "any other substance"
Firstly it says 'designed or adapted for the discharge of noxious gases, fluids or other substance'. Please don't misquote the bill. Secondly anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that it means noxious substances. That seems pretty obvious.

by Britcan » Tue May 07, 2013 6:24 am
Diopolis wrote:Britcan wrote:Firstly it says 'designed or adapted for the discharge of noxious gases, fluids or other substance'. Please don't misquote the bill. Secondly anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that it means noxious substances. That seems pretty obvious.
Water is still "any other substance"

by Rohamistan » Tue May 07, 2013 6:45 am

by CTALNH » Tue May 07, 2013 11:30 am
Wolfmanne wrote:Internal Security Bill (2013)
Co-drafted by: Costa Alegria and Wolfmanne || Urgency: High
Co-sponsors: Britcan
Preamble
The security of our nation is a top priority for the government and the Senate. Election to the Senate gives you the responsibility to ensure that you can hold the government to account in ensuring the safety and security of our people. However, it is not the responsibility of individual political parties to act as the judge, jury and executioner, for only multiple political parties and not just one can hold the government to account. Furthermore, we recognise that whether you support or oppose the Right to Bear Arms, in a time such as this, we need to reach a compromise until specific firearms legislation promoting or restricting the ownership of guns. In order to further the government's ability to ensure the security of this nation, we see the need for the creation of a government organisation to do just that, as evidenced by the 1st Festival of Republic, where armed right-wing paramilitaries are attempting to agitate left-wing paramilitaries into destabilising the nation.
Article 1: On Paramilitaries
1a: All paramilitaries, with the exception of those under the auspices of government agencies, are to be formally disbanded, including those under political parties and those otherwise independent from them, such as vigilante groups or citizen militias.
1b: All paramilitaries are to surrender their arms, munitions and vehicles with mounted weaponry that may have the potential of causing lethal harm to others to the Ministry of Justice, who shall issue disarmament warrants to law enforcement agencies.
1c: Paramilitaries that fail to disarm or be disbanded are to be designated as terrorist organisations. If they are under the auspices of a parent organisation, such as a political party, then they are to dissuade links from that paramilitary or they to shall be considered a terrorist organisation.
1d: The creation of new paramilitaries, vigilante groups and citizen militias is banned and all new paramilitaries are to be recognised as terrorist organisations. Any organisations, such as political parties, that endorse new paramilitaries, vigilante groups and citizen militias are also to be designated as terrorist organisations.
1e: Paramilitaries or individual members who fail to disarm may be arrested and trialed on the charges of refusal to disarm, illegal promotion of paramilitary activities and terrorism.
Article 2: The Gendarmerie
1a: In light of potential civil war and for use in a time of a national or regional emergency the Aurentinian Gendarmerie is to be established under the auspices of the Ministry of the Interior.
1b: The Aurentinian Gendarmerie is shall provide security of public institutions, ministries and courts, embassies and consulates international airports, national museums, nuclear power plants, riots & crowds control, publicly crowded events and our national borders.
1c: The Aurentinian Gendarmerie shall conduct high risk arrests, disaster response, SWAT operations, the suppression of internal armed conflicts and riots, the policing of areas without a sufficient amount of civilian police, to support local constabularies and counter-terrorism operations.
1d: The Gendarmerie shall be organised into a series of Brigades consisting of a number of Regiments from different regions.
1e: In times of war, the Gendarmerie or individual Brigades and Regiments may be drafted by the National Defense Force to provide rear security, police the military and for national defense against external threats, based upon the threat to national security this war may have. Gendarmes are to be considered a part of the military and not civilians, however whilst the Aurentinian Gendarmerie is considered to be a military organisation, it does not come under the National Defense Force but the Ministry of the Interior, unless they have been drafted.
1f: Gendarmes shall have policing powers as established by the Policing and Law Enforcement Act.
1g: The amount of personnel, equipment and funding for the Gendarmerie shall be set by the Ministry of Interior.
Article 3: Terrorist Organisations
3a: A terrorist organisation shall be defined as an armed paramilitary, vigilante or citizen militias that have refused to be disarmed in accordance with the paramilitary ban in Articles 1a.
3b: Herein also extends the definition of terrorist organisations as groups that acts, or has the potential to act, in a violent manner towards the state and its citizens and those that commit acts of violence against the state and its citizens for the advancement of an agenda.
3c: The Ministry of Justice may declare an organisation that does not operate in Aurentina that has received internationally widespread condemnation for the violent manner in which it has acted.
Article 4: Citizen's Arrest
to be written
Article 5: Private Security
4a: A security officer, or security guard, shall be defined as a privately and formally employed uniformed citizen who is paid and qualified to protect property, assets, or people by maintaining a high visibility presence to deter illegal and inappropriate actions, observing for signs of crime, fire or disorder and either reporting the incident to the local constabulary or using necessary force to suppress the perpetrator in the event that the physical well being of others can be potentially harmed, via a citizen's arrest or the usage of force as a last resort.
4b: The Office of Security Industry Regulation (Ofsecure) is established to regulate the security industry, to formally license security officers and to formally award qualifications to security trainees.
4c: Ofsecure shall establish a series of qualifications that are a basic requirement to be licensed as a security officer. The first is the Ofsecure Certification of Basic Security, which shall consist of 48 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to be employed as an unarmed security officer in all private properties. The other two qualifications are the Ofsecure Certification of Armed Security, which consists of 12 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to be employed as an armed security officer on all private properties and the Ofsecure Certification of Security Maintenance, which consists of 24 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to design, install, and repair security devices.
4d: To be issued a license from Ofsecure, a prospective security officer must be aged 18, must have completed upper secondary education as defined by the International Standard Classification of Education, be subject to approval by the local constabulary, pass a test, have at least obtained the Ofsecure Certification of Basic Security as a minimum and have no ongoing mental health issues. The license should list all of the Ofsecure security qualifications obtained.
4e: License renewal shall occur every 5 years and shall consist of the same standard tests. Qualifications are renewed by passing a written paper regarding the subject.
4f: A security officer is to be uniformed in an appropriate manner and may not wear clothing or emblems of anything that is militaristic or promotes the ideology of political party. A security officer may wear a beret or a peaked cap and is to be dressed in a uniform that is predominantly blue or black.
4g: A security officer may make a citizen's arrest (defined in Article 4) if necessary or may assist a law enforcement officer in making an arrest, if requested to do so by the said officer.
4h: An armed security officer must comply with any firearms legislation that may be set, including any licensing requirement or any background checks that are required to be made.
Article 6: Intelligence and Security Agencies
to be written
Article 7: Government Surveillance
to be written
Draft 2 written. Will expand on article 6 and article 4 later, article 5 will have clause regarding the private security industry added. Article 2 was expanded.

by Harbertia » Tue May 07, 2013 1:20 pm

by Strykla » Tue May 07, 2013 1:24 pm
CTALNH wrote:THIS SHALL NOT PASSWolfmanne wrote:Internal Security Bill (2013)
Co-drafted by: Costa Alegria and Wolfmanne || Urgency: High
Co-sponsors: Britcan
Preamble
The security of our nation is a top priority for the government and the Senate. Election to the Senate gives you the responsibility to ensure that you can hold the government to account in ensuring the safety and security of our people. However, it is not the responsibility of individual political parties to act as the judge, jury and executioner, for only multiple political parties and not just one can hold the government to account. Furthermore, we recognise that whether you support or oppose the Right to Bear Arms, in a time such as this, we need to reach a compromise until specific firearms legislation promoting or restricting the ownership of guns. In order to further the government's ability to ensure the security of this nation, we see the need for the creation of a government organisation to do just that, as evidenced by the 1st Festival of Republic, where armed right-wing paramilitaries are attempting to agitate left-wing paramilitaries into destabilising the nation.
Article 1: On Paramilitaries
1a: All paramilitaries, with the exception of those under the auspices of government agencies, are to be formally disbanded, including those under political parties and those otherwise independent from them, such as vigilante groups or citizen militias.
1b: All paramilitaries are to surrender their arms, munitions and vehicles with mounted weaponry that may have the potential of causing lethal harm to others to the Ministry of Justice, who shall issue disarmament warrants to law enforcement agencies.
1c: Paramilitaries that fail to disarm or be disbanded are to be designated as terrorist organisations. If they are under the auspices of a parent organisation, such as a political party, then they are to dissuade links from that paramilitary or they to shall be considered a terrorist organisation.
1d: The creation of new paramilitaries, vigilante groups and citizen militias is banned and all new paramilitaries are to be recognised as terrorist organisations. Any organisations, such as political parties, that endorse new paramilitaries, vigilante groups and citizen militias are also to be designated as terrorist organisations.
1e: Paramilitaries or individual members who fail to disarm may be arrested and trialed on the charges of refusal to disarm, illegal promotion of paramilitary activities and terrorism.
Article 2: The Gendarmerie
1a: In light of potential civil war and for use in a time of a national or regional emergency the Aurentinian Gendarmerie is to be established under the auspices of the Ministry of the Interior.
1b: The Aurentinian Gendarmerie is shall provide security of public institutions, ministries and courts, embassies and consulates international airports, national museums, nuclear power plants, riots & crowds control, publicly crowded events and our national borders.
1c: The Aurentinian Gendarmerie shall conduct high risk arrests, disaster response, SWAT operations, the suppression of internal armed conflicts and riots, the policing of areas without a sufficient amount of civilian police, to support local constabularies and counter-terrorism operations.
1d: The Gendarmerie shall be organised into a series of Brigades consisting of a number of Regiments from different regions.
1e: In times of war, the Gendarmerie or individual Brigades and Regiments may be drafted by the National Defense Force to provide rear security, police the military and for national defense against external threats, based upon the threat to national security this war may have. Gendarmes are to be considered a part of the military and not civilians, however whilst the Aurentinian Gendarmerie is considered to be a military organisation, it does not come under the National Defense Force but the Ministry of the Interior, unless they have been drafted.
1f: Gendarmes shall have policing powers as established by the Policing and Law Enforcement Act.
1g: The amount of personnel, equipment and funding for the Gendarmerie shall be set by the Ministry of Interior.
Article 3: Terrorist Organisations
3a: A terrorist organisation shall be defined as an armed paramilitary, vigilante or citizen militias that have refused to be disarmed in accordance with the paramilitary ban in Articles 1a.
3b: Herein also extends the definition of terrorist organisations as groups that acts, or has the potential to act, in a violent manner towards the state and its citizens and those that commit acts of violence against the state and its citizens for the advancement of an agenda.
3c: The Ministry of Justice may declare an organisation that does not operate in Aurentina that has received internationally widespread condemnation for the violent manner in which it has acted.
Article 4: Citizen's Arrest
to be written
Article 5: Private Security
4a: A security officer, or security guard, shall be defined as a privately and formally employed uniformed citizen who is paid and qualified to protect property, assets, or people by maintaining a high visibility presence to deter illegal and inappropriate actions, observing for signs of crime, fire or disorder and either reporting the incident to the local constabulary or using necessary force to suppress the perpetrator in the event that the physical well being of others can be potentially harmed, via a citizen's arrest or the usage of force as a last resort.
4b: The Office of Security Industry Regulation (Ofsecure) is established to regulate the security industry, to formally license security officers and to formally award qualifications to security trainees.
4c: Ofsecure shall establish a series of qualifications that are a basic requirement to be licensed as a security officer. The first is the Ofsecure Certification of Basic Security, which shall consist of 48 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to be employed as an unarmed security officer in all private properties. The other two qualifications are the Ofsecure Certification of Armed Security, which consists of 12 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to be employed as an armed security officer on all private properties and the Ofsecure Certification of Security Maintenance, which consists of 24 hours of training and upon completion, allows an individual to design, install, and repair security devices.
4d: To be issued a license from Ofsecure, a prospective security officer must be aged 18, must have completed upper secondary education as defined by the International Standard Classification of Education, be subject to approval by the local constabulary, pass a test, have at least obtained the Ofsecure Certification of Basic Security as a minimum and have no ongoing mental health issues. The license should list all of the Ofsecure security qualifications obtained.
4e: License renewal shall occur every 5 years and shall consist of the same standard tests. Qualifications are renewed by passing a written paper regarding the subject.
4f: A security officer is to be uniformed in an appropriate manner and may not wear clothing or emblems of anything that is militaristic or promotes the ideology of political party. A security officer may wear a beret or a peaked cap and is to be dressed in a uniform that is predominantly blue or black.
4g: A security officer may make a citizen's arrest (defined in Article 4) if necessary or may assist a law enforcement officer in making an arrest, if requested to do so by the said officer.
4h: An armed security officer must comply with any firearms legislation that may be set, including any licensing requirement or any background checks that are required to be made.
Article 6: Intelligence and Security Agencies
to be written
Article 7: Government Surveillance
to be written
Draft 2 written. Will expand on article 6 and article 4 later, article 5 will have clause regarding the private security industry added. Article 2 was expanded.

by Strykla » Tue May 07, 2013 1:29 pm

by Vazdania » Tue May 07, 2013 4:00 pm
Azurand wrote:Vazdania wrote:Its important to work with both the communists and socialistsBetrayal Detected, Betrayal Detected. Senator Vazdania, please follow our Assimilation Procedure - otherwise we'll forced you to follow the Annihilation Procedure instead. Be careful.
Just kid. Anyways, I'd strongly oppose 'working with socialists and communists'. And note that current Chairman, Senator Irredento has promised his opposition against cooperation with Communists and Socialists and I do believe that he is consistent in his promise.
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