a

[Carbandia]

Actually the Folgore did not literally fight to the last man, but given that they were out of water (remember this is in a desert), out of food, and ammo and completely surrounded with absolutely no chance of rescue one can hardly blame the thousand or so survivors for surrendering.

It should also be noted that the Folgore had in the preceding days knocked out around 200 tanks, and caused more casualities than they had members in the division.

No the Alpini, the Carristi, and the Parachutisti fought as well, if not better, than any other division in WW2, German or otherwise.

[Greed and Death]

Rad the transcripts of the Munich accords. Mussolini spoke 6 languages and had plays memorized line for line in his head.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Doesn't seem to meet the standard definition of heroism.

Brutal murder of opponents, unjust annexation of foreign territories, destruction of democracy, siding with the Nazis.

Could those who said yes please give their definition of what a hero is, because I always thought it was an antonym for 'complete and total asshat who oppressed his people and brought his country to eventual devastation and defeat'. I'm always interested to see how words evolve and can end up being used in a manner entirely contradictory to the initial meaning.

Much love xx

[The South Islands]

All of my four grandparents lived here in Italy under fascism. And no, trains didn't run on time - expecially through 5 years of bombings.

Is it even physically possible for Italian trains to run on time? Doesn't Italian timeliness break a law of physics?

[Cameroi]

being an evil overlord's sidekick, mascot, pet, and lightning rod doesn't make one another evil overlord, but it sure don't make one a hero either.

[Bdellovibrio]

My Grandmother lived there during his rule and she supported Mussolini. She said he made the trains run on time.

All of my four grandparents lived here in Italy under fascism. And no, trains didn't run on time - expecially through 5 years of bombings.

She was alive and lived there and was a first person witness, you going to argue with her?

Yes.

Can we draw up a list of five items that Mussolini did that were heroic that do not involve train timetables.

Pro
1) he did unify a realtively new nation that could have fallen apart and descended in to civil war.

Actually in 1943 Italy split into two States - the Kingdom of Italy (siding with the Allies) and the RSI (siding with the Nazis). So, in Italy there was a civil war from September 8, 1943 to April 25, 1945 . And (not all, but at the very least some of) the blame falls on Mussolini.

Con
1) Poor strategic vision - is there any involvement with other nations that he and Italy come out looking heroic?

Battle of Nikolajevka (part of the Russian advance in Winter 1942-1943). The Italian expeditionary force in the Soviet Union being the first, and last ever, to manage fighting their way out of the Soviet encirclement (even the Soviet war bullettin acknowledged that the Alpini corps was unbeaten in Russia).
Second Battle of El Alamein. The Italian divisions Ariete and Folgore fighting until the last man to give time to the rest of the Axis divisions to retreat.
Or also the Massacre of Cefalonia, the SM-79 torpedo aircrafts against the British H-Force, the Maiali (scuba-carrying minisubs) raid against British ships... yes, plenty of examples of heroic actions in WW2 carried out by Italian soldiers.

These, though, make look heroic the italian soldiers ONLY - expecially if you think the poor equipment and the almost inexistant supplies (food and ammo) they had. Mussolini, instead, was happily playing tennis in Rome in his nice villa, as the Alpini died in the Russian snow, or as the tinfoil tank of the Ariete were minced by the British guns.
The fucker even had the guts to say, when, in late 1940, he was informed that the Italian troops attacking Greece were freezing in the snow for lack of winter equipment: "Nevica? Bene! Così se ne vanno le mezze calzette e si migliora questa mediocre razza italiana."
("It snows? Good! So the weaklings die off and we'll better this mediocre Italian race.")

Rot in hell if there's one, Mussolini dei miei coglioni, te e tutti i fascisti di merda!

I never questioned the heroism of Italian soldiers, but Italy under Mussolini. He made some really bad decisions and you have actually provided information backing that proposition. He made Italy look bad.

[Risottia]

"Mussolini dei miei coglioni, te e tutti i fascisti di merda!" come on, tell us how you really feel.

Want a translation?

Only if "coglioni" isn't part of the digestive tract. Babelfish couldn't translate it.[/quote]

"coglioni" is vulgar for testicles (but can also mean "idiots"). Usually in Italian when you want to mean that you despise something, you relate it to some "lowly" body parts or item, or to some "lowly" practice. Of course, the more "lowly" the parts/item/practice, the more intense despise you mean.

Examples:
fascisti dei miei stivali = "fascist of my boots" = "fascists can lick my boots"
fascisti di merda = "fascist of shit" = "shitty fascists"
Mussolini dei miei coglioni = "Mussolini of my testicles" = (more or less) "Mussolini kisses my balls" (as act of submission)
Mussolini del buco del culo = "Mussolini of the arse" = "Mussolini is a turd"
etc.

[Risottia]

I never questioned the heroism of Italian soldiers, but Italy under Mussolini.

I know.

He made some really bad decisions and you have actually provided information backing that proposition. He made Italy look bad.

Yep. Luckily, thanks to some heroism on the battlefield and to the Resistance, the Italians managed to hold onto a minimum of dignity - in spite of Mussolini (and of the King).

[Risottia]

All of my four grandparents lived here in Italy under fascism. And no, trains didn't run on time - expecially through 5 years of bombings.

Is it even physically possible for Italian trains to run on time? Doesn't Italian timeliness break a law of physics?

It is possible, actually. Just don't ask them to run on time:
a) during rush hours on commuters' lines
b) during holidays on tourists' lines
c) during strikes

Of course these three cases cover about 50% of the year. The other 50% of the time, you are either at work, at home etc, so the trains run on time but you'll never experience that anyway. Basically, it's a sort of Schroedinger's cat punctuality.

[Risottia]

It should also be noted that the Folgore had in the preceding days knocked out around 200 tanks, and caused more casualities than they had members in the division.

And that being a light paratroopers division.

[Molested Sock]

I don't know, he wasted a ton of money and equipment on conquering Ethiopia of all places, also known as the most useless land on Earth.

Plus, he messed around with a bunch of Roman ruins and probably destroyed a ton of valuable artifacts, so that's another negative.

He did psuedo-fix the leaning tower of Pisa and Lazio Football club.

[North Suran]

@Homosexuality thread people:

This is Mussolini thread.

Post about Mussolini here.