NationStates

Coffee Cakes wrote:

Wandervoglen wrote:I don't quite think asking "right or wrong" is good for a productive.
The Wisconsin Dems are doing what they believe is right, which just so happens to be for the better interest of the common Wisconsin-er, as opposed to the Governor's favoritism of the corporate elite.

How would it benefit the common Wisconsin-er?
The only people benefiting off what the Dems are doing are the government unions.

So, unions aren't common people anymore?

How can they be commoners when they're monetarily raping commoners?

Coffee Cakes wrote:How can they be commoners when they're monetarily raping commoners?

Wut?

Well, the PSU's are in the top 5 or 10 for government expenses, because of their bloated salaries, pensions, and benefits. That's why they're monetarily raping the people. If they made some kind of an effort to help, it wouldn't be so bad.

It's just like the UAW and GM. The UAW bled GM for a racket all those years, until they went bankrupt. That's what these unions are doing to their states. It's absurd.

You mean to imply that unions "monetarily rape" me and my family? We're working Wisconsinites (the proper demonym, by the way, not Wisconsin-er), and we wholeheartedly support our senators. They are representing the will of the people to the fullest extent possible - we, their constituents, want this bill stopped by a clear majority (I saw a poll reading 61% last week, but that may have been nationally - at any rate, FOX ran it, so it's likely a gross underestimate of the popular opposition to the measure). They are doing the only thing they can to prevent the Governor and his cronies - what was your phrase? - 'raping' the citizens of this state, not only by crushing our rights, but by selling state utilities in no-bid sales, eliminating Medicaid, and all but banning public employee unions.

You seem to misunderstand what a union is - it's an organization of working people who stand united when bargaining for wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions with their employer to better defend their rights. They are not in any way "raping" the people of Wisconsin.

You think public employees make too much? Try being one. That's when you'll discover that even with the benefits, you make between 8 and 30% less than you would doing the same thing in the private sector. Unions don't bankrupt states; privatization and tax breaks do (like Scott Walker did to Milwaukee County as its executive).

Unions didn't break GM either, by the way. Poor management helped, and the fact that they can't compete with foreign cars for quality. The recession might have had a little to do with it too...

EDIT: Oh, and two other little things. One, the unions have agreed to every single fiscal concession Walker demanded; they simply refuse to relinquish collective bargaining, a basic human right. And two, public employees get better benefits than private ones because their pay is so drastically reduced in comparison. The idea that they get 'bloated' benefits is born of ignorance of the background and fiscal reality of the situation. I hope I've cleared that up.

Al-Aqar wrote:You seem to misunderstand what a union is - it's an organization of working people who stand united when bargaining for wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions with their employer to better defend their rights. They are not in any way "raping" the people of Wisconsin.

If that was about Private sector unions, that's right... Why are Public sector unions even necessary? It's not like state workers actually work. Their a bunch of oversalaried overpaid lazy-@$$es.

Tehre is no right and wrong. They are simply doing an action society will not punish them for.

As for the results, the democrats will come back when its time to either pass the budget or the state shuts down.
As for the strikes they will die down when the teachers (and others not allowed to strike) run out of sick days. This is mostly show boating, as it is when either side does this sort of thing.

Actually, the teachers haven't been using sick days. They've been taking time without pay for the protests, and those stopped a week ago. And the budget can't be passed without a 20-person quorum either.

Coffee Cakes, public unions are every bit as necessary as private unions for the same reasons. And your image of public employees is simply wrong - there's no two ways about it. You think snowplow drivers, prison guards, firefighters, and surgeons sit on their asses and do nothing?

Al-Aqar wrote:
Unions didn't break GM either, by the way. Poor management helped, and the fact that they can't compete with foreign cars for quality. The recession might have had a little to do with it too...

Actually, the unions accounted for 54% of GM's expenses until the bailout, which btw was stupid... and management was stupid for agreeing to the outrageous terms every time a CBA came up.

In the same way, government workers and state management are like the same thing.

Actually, maybe I've been thinking about this wrong, if everybody (unions and pols included) wants their state to go to he!! in a handbasket, maybe I should just let it slide and not think about the absurdity of it. Except, it'll be coming for Massachusetts eventually.

Al-Aqar wrote:Coffee Cakes, public unions are every bit as necessary as private unions for the same reasons. And your image of public employees is simply wrong - there's no two ways about it. You think snowplow drivers, prison guards, firefighters, and surgeons sit on their asses and do nothing?

All of those listed except for the firefighters, yeah, absolutely, quite honestly.

Coffee Cakes wrote:Actually, the unions accounted for 54% of GM's expenses until the bailout

Oh my goodness! A company that had to spend its money paying its workers?!?!? The horror!

You think surgeons sit on their asses and don't work? You think police don't work? You think garbage collectors, sanitation workers, corrections officers, plow drivers, and emergency responders don't work? Wake up, sir.

Alright, people elect people who line up with their ideologies for a reason. If I vote for a politician to defend a certain issue, he is doing his job when he is doing every tactic necessary to defend that issue, including not doing his job.

If I were a constituent of any of the AWOL Dems right now, they'd have won my re-election vote already.

Rolamec wrote:

Norstal wrote:Did Republicans do the right thing when they enacted the Patriot Act?

That's what I thought.

Did the Democrats do the right thing when they seceded from the Union to defend the institution of slavery?

Yeah, I just went there.

Democrats were the Rightists back then.

Yes I'm going there.

Not the discussion, thank you. Let's keep this on topic so it doesn't get shut down.

Swkoll wrote:

Rolamec wrote:
Did the Democrats do the right thing when they seceded from the Union to defend the institution of slavery?

Yeah, I just went there.

Democrats were the Rightists back then.

Yes I'm going there.

Both parties actually favored slavery prior to the Republicans, the GOP was relatively new with Lincoln...And it wasn't rightist anything, it was state versus federal authority.

Coffee Cakes wrote:

Al-Aqar wrote:You seem to misunderstand what a union is - it's an organization of working people who stand united when bargaining for wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions with their employer to better defend their rights. They are not in any way "raping" the people of Wisconsin.

If that was about Private sector unions, that's right... Why are Public sector unions even necessary? It's not like state workers actually work. Their a bunch of oversalaried overpaid lazy-@$$es.

It's not like state workers actually work. Their [sic] a bunch of oversalaried overpaid lazy-@$$es [sic]."

It's not like state workers actually work.

I've seen people lose credibility. It's been a while since I've seen it cast aside so gleefully.

To be honest, unionized government workers are pretty spoiled, and that's coming from my father, who happens to be a unionized government worker.

Senestrum wrote:To be honest, unionized government workers are pretty spoiled, and that's coming from my father, who happens to be a unionized government worker.

Then that means your father isn't one of the zombie personnel of public unions? Maybe just maybe there's hope.

They should all be fired. All this commotion from having to pay a few % of their benefits? How many people in Wisconsin live on the streets without a job? These people are greed incarnate. If they do this for being expected to contribute a small percent to their benefits, what would they do if the economy collapsed? Eat the children?

public unions (private unions are great and dandy) are money laundering organizations. All I see is an unholy orgies of vote buying and grandstanding ...... Please if 100 k+ of salaries plus benefits is the middle class then what really are those majority of americans earning 35k - 40k + yearly. Bleh.... and all these comes from taxpayers money! (come on i can empathize more if its a private fund)

/endofrant

Aurum and Argentum wrote:public unions (private unions are great and dandy) are money laundering organizations. All I see is an unholy orgies of vote buying and grandstanding ...... Please if 100 k+ of salaries plus benefits is the middle class then what really are those majority of americans earning 35k - 40k + yearly. Bleh.... and all these comes from taxpayers money! (come on i can empathize more if its a private fund)

/endofrant

corporations do more vote buying than public unions
edit: and public workers do not get as high of salaries as private workers in the same field do, hence why they get better benefits to counter-balance.

There is no cow level wrote:

Aurum and Argentum wrote:public unions (private unions are great and dandy) are money laundering organizations. All I see is an unholy orgies of vote buying and grandstanding ...... Please if 100 k+ of salaries plus benefits is the middle class then what really are those majority of americans earning 35k - 40k + yearly. Bleh.... and all these comes from taxpayers money! (come on i can empathize more if its a private fund)

/endofrant

corporations do more vote buying than public unions

but corporations dont use your taxes to do this am i right or i am right?

Aurum and Argentum wrote:

There is no cow level wrote:corporations do more vote buying than public unions

but corporations dont use your taxes to do this am i right or i am right?

Once the money reaches the individual, they stop being "taxes" and become "income" for that person.

Wilgrove wrote:

Aurum and Argentum wrote:
but corporations dont use your taxes to do this am i right or i am right?

Once the money reaches the individual, they stop being "taxes" and become "income" for that person.

yep income and benefits bloated up with there political backers..... nice way of legal laundering. Just like elect me and I make sure I will boost all your pensions campaign.

Aurum and Argentum wrote:

Wilgrove wrote:
Once the money reaches the individual, they stop being "taxes" and become "income" for that person.

yep income and benefits bloated up with there political backers..... nice way of legal laundering. Just like elect me and I make sure I will boost all your pensions campaign.

and exactly how are they "legally laundering" money?
Edit: you know, it sounds like you're against public employees using the money they earned to do with what they please in a legal manner. Are they supposed to get paid significantly less than the private sector? There would be no incentive to take on a public role in that case. Are you proposing that society should solely be run by the private sector as in a corporate fascism state?