Is School Slavery With Benifits?

[Grave_n_idle]

Not seeing much else in the way of explanation, honestly.

I left home when I was still a minor. Hell, I was HOMELESS while I was a minor. I can assure everyone here, from personal experience, that it is not only possible for an American minor to stop attending public school, but it's actually depressingly easy. It was very difficult for me to keep going to school, and I worked my ass off to manage it.

Listening to spoilt little suburban kids bitch about how mean their teachers are is hilarious to me, in a sick and twisted sort of way, because they'll never know how easy they've got it. They'll never know how much their education is worth, and how many other kids have to fight and scrape their whole lives to just get a taste of that kind of opportunity. I suppose I should be glad that there are children who have been so pampered, that there are kids who can be that soft and sheltered, because that's a sign of how well-off some corners of this world are.

You are generalizing people who have an ideological disagreement with you about the nature of public schooling as "spoilt little suburban kids".

No, she's generalizing about people that could opt out of schooling, by actually doing something... but would rather complain.

That's not about ideology.

[Bendira]

You are generalizing people who have an ideological disagreement with you about the nature of public schooling as "spoilt little suburban kids".

No, she's generalizing about people that could opt out of schooling, by actually doing something... but would rather complain.

That's not about ideology.

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK. They spent time in a classroom learning structured lessons on things that did not interest them, were below their skill level or were just plain false. This time could have been spent more productively, on things of value to the individual. Nearly everybody on the "anti-public school" side have said that dissent in the classroom and free thought was silenced, or at the very least discouraged. I hope you and Bottle recognize that most likely the majority of the anti-public schoolers here are more hard working, driven and interested in learning than the people who are content sitting at a desk being spoon fed garbage. Characterizing them/us as "spoilt little suburban kids" is quite silly.

Secondly, you can "opt out" of schooling. I guess suicide, running away and starving in the streets is an option. But thats not how I want to live? I don't want to live in a system where you have to be a god damn fugitive to have freedom to learn and educate yourself. People would "rather complain", as if complaining is a bad thing. Like all problems with society, it takes people complaining about it to fix it. The whole "just be happy you don't have it worse than you do now" argument is an argument for the status quo, a weak argument preventing progress in society.

[Grave_n_idle]

No, she's generalizing about people that could opt out of schooling, by actually doing something... but would rather complain.

That's not about ideology.

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK.

Most of the people complaining about school seem to be still in school.

School can't hold you back - unless you're claiming no personal responsibility, so I've no time for such complaining.

[Dakini]

No, she's generalizing about people that could opt out of schooling, by actually doing something... but would rather complain.

That's not about ideology.

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK. They spent time in a classroom learning structured lessons on things that did not interest them, were below their skill level or were just plain false. This time could have been spent more productively, on things of value to the individual. Nearly everybody on the "anti-public school" side have said that dissent in the classroom and free thought was silenced, or at the very least discouraged. I hope you and Bottle recognize that most likely the majority of the anti-public schoolers here are more hard working, driven and interested in learning than the people who are content sitting at a desk being spoon fed garbage. Characterizing them/us as "spoilt little suburban kids" is quite silly.

Secondly, you can "opt out" of schooling. I guess suicide, running away and starving in the streets is an option. But thats not how I want to live? I don't want to live in a system where you have to be a god damn fugitive to have freedom to learn and educate yourself. People would "rather complain", as if complaining is a bad thing. Like all problems with society, it takes people complaining about it to fix it. The whole "just be happy you don't have it worse than you do now" argument is an argument for the status quo, a weak argument preventing progress in society.

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

[Coccygia]

A number of persons in this thread have expressed some confusion as to whether they are in a school or a prison. As a public service, I have compiled the following list of questions which may help clarify matters for them.¹

1. Are you required to remain on school grounds all the time? (If the answer is “yes”, you may be in either a prison or a boarding school. See questions 2-7 to clarify. If the answer is “no” you are not in a prison.²)
2. Are you never allowed to leave school to see your family on vacations?
3. Do you never even have vacations?
4. If you do, are your vacations referred to as “furloughs”?
5. When your parents visit, do they speak to you by means of a telephone from the other side of a glass partition?
6. If not, is there an armed teacher present during these visits?
7. Have your parents ever tried to send you a cake with a hacksaw in it?
8. Do you spend most of the school day in a barred cell?
9. Do you spend most of the school day in the schoolyard with the other students?³
9. Does the toilet in your school completely lack privacy? A seat?
10. Is the toilet in your school a bucket?
11. Is your school uniform an orange jumpsuit?
12. Do you address the principal as “Warden”?⁴
13. Do the teachers carry handguns, high-powered rifles, or automatic weapons?
14. Do the teachers hit you?
15. Do they use billy clubs when they do so?
16. Do teachers ever gang up on a student and beat him so badly that he has to go to the school hospital? (See next question.)
17. Does your school have its own hospital on the grounds?
18. When students misbehave, are they sent to “the Hole”?
19. If so, do the teachers often urinate in their food?
20. Has any student ever been shot trying to escape from your school?
21. Do you have riots at your school?⁵
22. If so, have any students ever been killed in these riots?⁵
23. If so, were they shot by the teachers?
24. Do the students carry shanks or other homemade weapons?⁵
25. Are students often killed by other students?⁵
26. Are students often forcibly⁶ sodomized by other students⁷?⁵
27. Do your school's field trips involve being shackled together, doing roadwork, teachers with shotguns, and the use of the phrase, "Towelin' off, boss"?
28. Upon graduation, will you receive, in lieu of a diploma, $25 and a set of cheap clothing?
29. Upon graduation, will you be required to report to a parole officer?
30. Upon graduation, can you be sent back to the school for misbehaving?
31. Would graduation from your school be helpful to you in getting a job with the Mafia or other criminal organization? ⁵
32. If you tell people that you have graduated from your school, would they be afraid of you?⁵
34. Would a prospective employer be highly unlikely to hire you because you graduated from your school?⁵
35. Has a movie ever been made about your school that starred Jimmy Cagney, Burt Lancaster, Paul Newman, or Clint Eastwood?⁸

Scoring: The more “yes” answers you have, the more likely it is that you are, in fact, in prison rather than in school. Scoring is somewhat subjective, however; as can be seen from the notes, not all the questions may give an entirely clear-cut indication as to whether you are in a school or a prison. You may wish to have a teacher score the test for you. If the teacher frowns and sends you to the principal’s office, you are in a school. If the teacher laughs rudely and smashes you in the mouth with his billy club, you are in a prison.<sup>9


1</sup>Fat chance.
²So grow up.
³If so, it is just possible you are in a highly progressive private school in Southern California and that your parents are getting ripped off big time.
⁴Assuming that his name is not, in fact, Warden.
⁵If the answer to any of these questions is “yes”, you may be in either a prison or an American public school in a bad neighborhood.
⁶If the sodomy is consensual, you may be in an exclusive British public school.
⁷If the sodomy is committed by the teachers, you may be in a school run by Catholic priests.
⁸If you don’t know who Jimmy Cagney, Burt Lancaster, or Paul Newman are, look them up in Wikipedia. And check out White Heat. “Top o’ the world, Ma! Top o’ the world!”
⁹You may prefer to score the test yourself.

For something to qualify as a prison or incarceration, it doesn't need to meet nearly any of the qualifications you listed here.

And what if it meets none of them? (Except in the case of a boarding school; see questions 2-7). In any case, I believe you have committed the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Report to Principal Warden's office at once.

[NERVUN]

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK. They spent time in a classroom learning structured lessons on things that did not interest them, were below their skill level or were just plain false. This time could have been spent more productively, on things of value to the individual. Nearly everybody on the "anti-public school" side have said that dissent in the classroom and free thought was silenced, or at the very least discouraged. I hope you and Bottle recognize that most likely the majority of the anti-public schoolers here are more hard working, driven and interested in learning than the people who are content sitting at a desk being spoon fed garbage. Characterizing them/us as "spoilt little suburban kids" is quite silly.

Secondly, you can "opt out" of schooling. I guess suicide, running away and starving in the streets is an option. But thats not how I want to live? I don't want to live in a system where you have to be a god damn fugitive to have freedom to learn and educate yourself. People would "rather complain", as if complaining is a bad thing. Like all problems with society, it takes people complaining about it to fix it. The whole "just be happy you don't have it worse than you do now" argument is an argument for the status quo, a weak argument preventing progress in society.

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Funny about that isn't it? He was ranting about how he COULD have been doing all that stuff and when it was pointed out that he COULD have done it anyway, then suddenly it bcame pointless. TCT got it in one, because the world isn't set up to his specifics, nothing is his fault, least of all that he can't seem to be that rugged, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, guy.

[Bendira]

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK. They spent time in a classroom learning structured lessons on things that did not interest them, were below their skill level or were just plain false. This time could have been spent more productively, on things of value to the individual. Nearly everybody on the "anti-public school" side have said that dissent in the classroom and free thought was silenced, or at the very least discouraged. I hope you and Bottle recognize that most likely the majority of the anti-public schoolers here are more hard working, driven and interested in learning than the people who are content sitting at a desk being spoon fed garbage. Characterizing them/us as "spoilt little suburban kids" is quite silly.

Secondly, you can "opt out" of schooling. I guess suicide, running away and starving in the streets is an option. But thats not how I want to live? I don't want to live in a system where you have to be a god damn fugitive to have freedom to learn and educate yourself. People would "rather complain", as if complaining is a bad thing. Like all problems with society, it takes people complaining about it to fix it. The whole "just be happy you don't have it worse than you do now" argument is an argument for the status quo, a weak argument preventing progress in society.

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now, and would most likely be investing heavily. It is unethical for the state to dictate that I must be in a specific location at a specific time each day for my "own good". How does the state know what is my "own good?".

[Bendira]

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Funny about that isn't it? He was ranting about how he COULD have been doing all that stuff and when it was pointed out that he COULD have done it anyway, then suddenly it bcame pointless. TCT got it in one, because the world isn't set up to his specifics, nothing is his fault, least of all that he can't seem to be that rugged, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, guy.

I never claimed to be a "rugged bootstraps" guy. In fact, people who say that are typically conservatives who try to defend their brand of proto-fascist crony-capitalism by saying "well, you should just work harder and not be a welfare case".

[Dakini]

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Funny about that isn't it? He was ranting about how he COULD have been doing all that stuff and when it was pointed out that he COULD have done it anyway, then suddenly it bcame pointless. TCT got it in one, because the world isn't set up to his specifics, nothing is his fault, least of all that he can't seem to be that rugged, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, guy.

Yeah really.

I'm not going to claim that I couldn't have learned more in school if they'd taught it (and I would have welcomed the opportunity). At the time I probably complained about how school was catering to the stupid kids which made it boring for me, but really, it was catering toward the average kids. This left a somewhat gifted kid bored and doodling throughout class a lot of time, but I enjoyed doodling. The easy homework also meant that I had a lot of time on my hands to spend time with friends or reading for my own enjoyment. So really, I can't complain.

Perhaps I should add that I like being an adult much more, even if it means less free time. I like coming home whenever I want and rarely being nagged.

[Mediterreania]

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now, and would most likely be investing heavily. It is unethical for the state to dictate that I must be in a specific location at a specific time each day for my "own good". How does the state know what is my "own good?".

No offense, though, but you seem to be propagating the stereotype of the "angsty immature anarchist kid" (or as The Grand World Order calls them, "Anarkids!").

[Grave_n_idle]

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now...

By 'most likely', I wonder what exactly you mean.

Making calculations about alternate realities is hard enough. Your calculation seems to hinge on you being more successful because you know less... which seems counter-intuitive, at the least.

[Voya]

It seems like it to me.

[Farnhamia]

It seems like it to me.

Does it, indeed? What grade are you in?

[Voya]

It seems like it to me.

Does it, indeed? What grade are you in?

10th just joking.

[Dakini]

Dude. High school was way below my level and I could have spent the time more productively. It never really held me back though because *gasp* I had free time outside school! What a novel idea! There were a whole two months during the summer where I could do whatever I wanted, which usually meant spending the whole time reading. I wish I had that kind of free time now... although I've been trying to make this sort of free time for myself lately (with some success).

I'm doubtful that school is actually holding you back from doing anything at all.

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now, and would most likely be investing heavily. It is unethical for the state to dictate that I must be in a specific location at a specific time each day for my "own good". How does the state know what is my "own good?".

If you really cared about learning, you wouldn't have slept through school (even though I doodled and did homework, I still paid enough attention to be aware of what was happening in class). If you really cared about learning independently, you would have made the time to do it.

I mean, right now, I'm in grad school. I spent my days either doing some marking or some serious thinking, so most of my reading lately has been fiction. However, I still go through some serious literature (e.g. I'm reading Notre Dame de Paris by Hugo [in French]) and non-fiction works (usually philosophy or pop-science books now) as well as (of course) reading astronomy or physics textbooks for fun and further knowledge in my subject. So I'll spend a 60 hour work week doing research and then come home to read (or knit, or play my guitar).

If anything, the thing holding me back from being more productive is my mild addiction to the internet, for which I have only myself to blame.

[NERVUN]

Funny about that isn't it? He was ranting about how he COULD have been doing all that stuff and when it was pointed out that he COULD have done it anyway, then suddenly it bcame pointless. TCT got it in one, because the world isn't set up to his specifics, nothing is his fault, least of all that he can't seem to be that rugged, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, guy.

I never claimed to be a "rugged bootstraps" guy. In fact, people who say that are typically conservatives who try to defend their brand of proto-fascist crony-capitalism by saying "well, you should just work harder and not be a welfare case".

And once again you ignore the point to focus on the inane.

[Geniasis]

Ever notice how the posters claiming they could do better on their own appear markedly less adept at demonstrating their aptitude than those who viewed schooling as the blessing it is?

Just an odd pattern.

[Wikkiwallana]

No, she's generalizing about people that could opt out of schooling, by actually doing something... but would rather complain.

That's not about ideology.

First of all, nearly everybody who has posted here on the side of school being imprisonment has agreed that school HELD THEM BACK. They spent time in a classroom learning structured lessons on things that did not interest them, were below their skill level or were just plain false. This time could have been spent more productively, on things of value to the individual. Nearly everybody on the "anti-public school" side have said that dissent in the classroom and free thought was silenced, or at the very least discouraged. I hope you and Bottle recognize that most likely the majority of the anti-public schoolers here are more hard working, driven and interested in learning than the people who are content sitting at a desk being spoon fed garbage. Characterizing them/us as "spoilt little suburban kids" is quite silly.

When you put it like that, you're right, that doesn't sound like "spoilt little suburban kids". It sounds a lot more like clinical narcissism.

[Bendira]

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now...

By 'most likely', I wonder what exactly you mean.

Making calculations about alternate realities is hard enough. Your calculation seems to hinge on you being more successful because you know less... which seems counter-intuitive, at the least.

How would I know less? I may "know less" of what the state dictates I know, and I will "know more" about what I as an individual WANT to know and think will benefit me most.

[Dakini]

By 'most likely', I wonder what exactly you mean.

Making calculations about alternate realities is hard enough. Your calculation seems to hinge on you being more successful because you know less... which seems counter-intuitive, at the least.

How would I know less? I may "know less" of what the state dictates I know, and I will "know more" about what I as an individual WANT to know and think will benefit me most.

Which subjects would you want to know less well? Which subjects do you think would benefit you the most?

[Bendira]

How would I know less? I may "know less" of what the state dictates I know, and I will "know more" about what I as an individual WANT to know and think will benefit me most.

Which subjects would you want to know less well? Which subjects do you think would benefit you the most?

I would most likely know less about math and science, and know more about literature, philosophy, economics and history.

[Dakini]

Which subjects would you want to know less well? Which subjects do you think would benefit you the most?

I would most likely know less about math and science, and know more about literature, philosophy, economics and history.

So you want to know less about math and more about economics, a study of the economy... which involves numbers.


...right.

Of course, you'd also like to know less about how the world works because scientific illiteracy isn't already a huge problem.

[Bendira]

Between school and work, I only had time to sleep. If I had that time to myself, there is no telling what I could have learned and accomplished by now. I would most likely have far more money than I do now, and would most likely be investing heavily. It is unethical for the state to dictate that I must be in a specific location at a specific time each day for my "own good". How does the state know what is my "own good?".

No offense, though, but you seem to be propagating the stereotype of the "angsty immature anarchist kid" (or as The Grand World Order calls them, "Anarkids!").

Eh, I don't mind. Idealists generally ARE regarded as angsty immature kids. Until they bring about revolutionary change for the benefit of society.

[Bendira]

I would most likely know less about math and science, and know more about literature, philosophy, economics and history.

So you want to know less about math and more about economics, a study of the economy... which involves numbers.


...right.

Of course, you'd also like to know less about how the world works because scientific illiteracy isn't already a huge problem.

I am interested in Austrian School economics, which typically dosn't involve as much mathematics as your other schools. I would probably still study geology to some degree, for commodities and my fascination with space.

The problem of scientific literacy does not really concern me. As somebody who values a free market of idea's and talents, I see knowledge as an extension of the division of labour. If you have a bunch of people who are "well rounded", they are not particularly intelligent in any one area of study. The division of labour in the realm of idea's and talents would be more efficient if it was comprised of many individuals with highly specialized knowledge in their fields contributing to one end goal.

[North Lehi]

This is one of the worst thread topics I've read on NS. Of course school isn't like slavery it prepares one to enter a society as a full member, and gives the tools needed to be successful. If you look back throughout history it has only been the ruling classes that had access to education. It has been a privilege you should be happy that our society now considers it a right.