Is School Slavery With Benifits?

[Coccygia]

School isn't slavery. The school is doing a service for you - giving you an education - not you for them. You think anybody needs your algebra test for anything? Don't like school, huh? Well YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. Any more than you're supposed to enjoy working*. But if you get an education at least you'll be able to get a job that pays you more for doing less work.

Jesus, grow up.


*"Job satisfaction is like stealing from the company." - Dilbert's boss (or was it Mr. Burns?)

[Bendira]

School isn't slavery. The school is doing a service for you - giving you an education - not you for them. You think anybody needs your algebra test for anything? Don't like school, huh? Well YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. Any more than you're supposed to enjoy working*. But if you get an education at least you'll be able to get a job that pays you more for doing less work.

Jesus, grow up.


*"Job satisfaction is like stealing from the company." - Dilbert's boss (or was it Mr. Burns?)

Just because somebody is giving you something while you are in the prison, it dosn't make it right.

[Coccygia]

School isn't slavery. The school is doing a service for you - giving you an education - not you for them. You think anybody needs your algebra test for anything? Don't like school, huh? Well YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. Any more than you're supposed to enjoy working*. But if you get an education at least you'll be able to get a job that pays you more for doing less work.

Jesus, grow up.


*"Job satisfaction is like stealing from the company." - Dilbert's boss (or was it Mr. Burns?)

Just because somebody is giving you something while you are in the prison, it dosn't make it right.

[Dakini]

The last thing we need in this country is another Welfare Rat, anyone who drops out of high school is just that, unless they are the very few who invent something that people will use/buy.

That's not quite true. You can also wait tables, work soul-crushing minimum-wage customer service jobs, work in noisy factories... umm... be a hired farm hand?

There are jobs you can get without a high school education. They just all suck.

[Quelesh]

Not only do most parents simply not have the skills to effectively teach reading

I disagree with that. It really doesn't take much to teach someone to read, as long as they actually want to learn to read. Hell, reading can be practically self-taught.

Nobody is forcing you to go to a private school, except maybe your parents.

A prison where your parents are the jailers is no better than a prison where the state is the jailer.

If you think about it, even in an an-cap society, there would still be truancy patrols and kids being hoisted into paddy-wagons and hauled back to school, it would just be done by a private company rather than the police.

I'm certainly not an expert in such things, but it seems to me that, in a truly anarchist society, that "private company" would not have the right to use force against those children.

A couple small Qs... given that N is presumably a minor:

1.) Where is N going to get the money to pay for a non-school institution to teach him?
2.) When is he going to be able to be able to escape home to get there?

1. Solution: abolish the laws that prohibit N from acquiring and owning property, working in non-exploitative jobs, etc.
2. Solution: make it illegal for parents to use force against their children to keep them in the home or to prevent them from going somewhere where they can learn things.

Did you read the bit where he has to be collected by the principal because his parents won't voluntarily let him go? If the principal was not able to use the threat of the law to get him, then he wouldn't go. He wants to learn, I see it on the 3 days a week when he's there. His parents won't let him.

Like he could now? Except his parents won't let him attend without a fight?

Please demonstrate how creating other institutions that teach (we'll ignore the dictionary and refrain from calling them schools) would improve N's access to an education that his parents don't want him to have.

If his parents are using force to prevent N from going somewhere he wants to go where he can learn things, then his parents should be arrested. Once that happens, N would be able to voluntarily go to school or anywhere else to learn.

He's not imprisoned, just prevented from going to school.

If his parents use force to keep N inside the home, then he's being imprisoned. If his parents don't use force to prevent him from leaving the home in general but do use force to prevent him from going to school in particular, then he's "just" being prevented from going to school. Either way, his parents have no right to use that force and they should be arrested so that N can voluntarily go to school if he chooses.

Slavery with benefits is freedom.

Slavery... is freedom.

Slavery is freedom.

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

So you aren't arguing whether its imprisonment or slavery at this point, you agree it is. You are just saying it is a necessary evil?

I don't even think it's evil. It doesn't even count as slavery because you pay to be there.

How does the fact that you pay to be there mean that it's not slavery? You're forced to be there and you're forced to pay for it.

Because if I was reading a book during class, they would typically take it away from us and hold it until the end of class.

They did the same thing to me too. I usually got my homework done in class, and still had time after that to read, but if I tried to read they'd take the book, sometimes without ever giving it back, so I ended up just sitting there daydreaming instead of reading about something that interested me.

I mean your boss tells you do answer the phone, your boss tells you that you are taking a pay cut, your boss tells you that you will be cleaning the bathroom, would that make him a slave owner and you a slave?

No, because you can leave at any time and the state won't send its armed agents to force you back.

And that last is the key to almost every argument I have ever seen you make here, that you are against anything that is compulsory, that you know far better than the people who make things compulsory, and if you don't, you know where to look up the relevant arguments against those things in the Von Mises Library.

Speaking only for myself, I do oppose anything that is compulsory. The legitimate use of force is limited only to preventing people from harming others against their will.

You're aware that you can argue with a teacher, yes?

In grad school, yes, and in undergrad, generally yes, but in high school, my experience is that the answer to your question is an emphatic "no." Arguing with a teacher would only get me punished.

[Dakini]

You're aware that you can argue with a teacher, yes?

In grad school, yes, and in undergrad, generally yes, but in high school, my experience is that the answer to your question is an emphatic "no." Arguing with a teacher would only get me punished.

Either your teachers suck or you're not presenting it in a good way.

There's a difference between "You're wrong, I read it in x y and z!" and "I read in x y and z that a instead of b. Could you clarify?".

[Bottle]

In grad school, yes, and in undergrad, generally yes, but in high school, my experience is that the answer to your question is an emphatic "no." Arguing with a teacher would only get me punished.

Either your teachers suck or you're not presenting it in a good way.

There's a difference between "You're wrong, I read it in x y and z!" and "I read in x y and z that a instead of b. Could you clarify?".

Yeah, I argued with teachers from pretty much kindergarten on, and I got straight A's.

I'm sure there are some school districts that suck. But the existence of crappy schools (or crappy teachers) does not mean that schooling is inherently crappy or that all teachers are dictatorial jackasses.

[Mediterreania]

In grad school, yes, and in undergrad, generally yes, but in high school, my experience is that the answer to your question is an emphatic "no." Arguing with a teacher would only get me punished.

Either your teachers suck or you're not presenting it in a good way.

There's a difference between "You're wrong, I read it in x y and z!" and "I read in x y and z that a instead of b. Could you clarify?".

My public school history teacher used to hate me for disagreeing with him, and my friend had a similar experience with his pre-algebra teacher.

[Bottle]

Either your teachers suck or you're not presenting it in a good way.

There's a difference between "You're wrong, I read it in x y and z!" and "I read in x y and z that a instead of b. Could you clarify?".

My public school history teacher used to hate me for disagreeing with him, and my friend had a similar experience with his pre-algebra teacher.

My second-grade teacher was a raging bitch. So? I had many teachers throughout my public school career, and most of them welcomed having engaged students who were interested in questioning the material and criticizing it intelligently.

[Mediterreania]

My public school history teacher used to hate me for disagreeing with him, and my friend had a similar experience with his pre-algebra teacher.

My second-grade teacher was a raging bitch. So? I had many teachers throughout my public school career, and most of them welcomed having engaged students who were interested in questioning the material and criticizing it intelligently.

Overall, though, my public school teachers have punished dissent rather than encouraging it.

[Bottle]

My second-grade teacher was a raging bitch. So? I had many teachers throughout my public school career, and most of them welcomed having engaged students who were interested in questioning the material and criticizing it intelligently.

Overall, though, my public school teachers have punished dissent rather than encouraging it.

Sounds like you've had crappy teachers, then. That's a shame. If you care strongly about it, you could try to help your district raise more money so they can attract better teachers, and perhaps get involved with the school board to contribute input on curricula and teaching standards.

[Poorisolation]

Lol I like the border patrol analogy. Like schools job is to prepare you to be ready to answer questions from government agents who want to throw you in prison.

And rape you with their nazi penises like the evil statist tyrant enforcers that they are.

Well not getting raped with nazi penises would be high on my list of things to avoid, not getting raped by nazi echidna penises would be even higher and if you do not know why then do an image search on echidna penises but be warned you may regret it.

Still a good schooling can prepare you for more things than you can possibly imagine and that is the whole point of it. I went through a wide range of educational formats and it was only as I got old enough that I was able to influence which institutions I attended that I actually enjoyed education. Some of those were intensely specialist schools but the funny thing is apart from the specialist knowledge a lot of the same models of education were actually applied.

Yes some people can be autodidacts most cannot and systems designed to help society have to aim primarily for the masses and there is a strong link between educational outcomes and both economic perform and general happiness ratios. There is real evidence that people who have received schooling have a greater chance of happy and productive lives than those who do not. Yes you cannot guarantee any individual outcome but very unlike slavery school helps the vast majority of its victims to live better more fulfilled lives.

That does rather seem to put in a different spectrum of human endeavour than slavery now does it not?

[Dakini]

Either your teachers suck or you're not presenting it in a good way.

There's a difference between "You're wrong, I read it in x y and z!" and "I read in x y and z that a instead of b. Could you clarify?".

My public school history teacher used to hate me for disagreeing with him, and my friend had a similar experience with his pre-algebra teacher.

So? I argued with teachers a lot. Most of them were fine with it because I wasn't a total asshat about it (e.g. I asked for clarification and suggested an alternative instead of stating that they were wrong) and if I saw an outright mistake in a maths derivation, the question would usually be along the lines of "Where did the extra x come from, or should it be x^3 not x^4?". I had some teachers who were jerks (one threatened to send me to a Christian reading group) and idiots, but for the most part they were fine (and knew more than I did in their particular subject).

[Dakini]

Overall, though, my public school teachers have punished dissent rather than encouraging it.

Sounds like you've had crappy teachers, then. That's a shame. If you care strongly about it, you could try to help your district raise more money so they can attract better teachers, and perhaps get involved with the school board to contribute input on curricula and teaching standards.

Or get them to hire more teachers. It's possible that the teachers were overwhelmed by large (and too many) classes.

[Qatarab]

Don't see how school is slavery when in fact you have a choice of participating or not in schoolwork. If you participate you get an education,you don't participate you just attend a social meeting 5 days a week for around 5-6 hours with people you know or will know. It is definitely not involuntary servitude in any sense as they do not officially have possession of you. You don't like the staff? tell them to go screw themselves,get expelled and voila...your no longer what you believe to be!. No need to run away using the underground railroad,join the army,make money to buy your freedom or shoot your master in the head.

[Dyakovo]

Oh. My. God.

Employers*
who have college educations* (or who has a college education)

This sort of thing is seriously impeding your point.

Maybe to you, somebody who finds grammar a measure of intelligence.

Whether you like it or not (obviously you don't) proper grammar is a demonstration of intelligence.

[Dyakovo]

Between my politics class and my philosophy class, I'm actually starting to get sick of debates in school. The diversity is pretty good in my classes too, although obviously I recognise that this isn't universal.

This is all a moot point though really since I'm past the age of mandatory schooling.

In my classes, I was always the raving lunatic for the first couple weeks. However by the end of the semester people became far more receptive to my views. I think it is because they realized anarchism isn't an ideology comprised of schizophrenics who wants people to live in the woods.

How'd they learn that from listening to you?

[Bottle]

Maybe to you, somebody who finds grammar a measure of intelligence.

Whether you like it or not (obviously you don't) proper grammar is a demonstration of intelligence.

More importantly (at least IMO), it's a demonstration of courtesy.

When mature people converse, one of the most fundamental elements to the conversation is the idea that they should each make themselves clearly understood to the other. This is why, for instance, in the sciences they train us to minimize our use of jargon even when writing scholarly journal articles. There is also the notion that how you choose to say something will, logically, impact the message that is received. This is why most people realize that certain forms of slang are inappropriate in formal venues. Showing that you've put a little thought and effort into what you say and how you say it is a simple form of respect for your reader/listener.

On internet forums, I don't necessarily assume that grammar or spelling will correlate with intelligence, but I absolutely have found that they directly correlate with maturity level. People who are interested in meaningful discussions tend to write accordingly, while people who are simply interested in barfing their opinions all over cyberspace will rarely bother with things like punctuation or appropriate plurals.

[Chumblywumbly]

On internet forums, I don't necessarily assume that grammar or spelling will correlate with intelligence, but I absolutely have found that they directly correlate with maturity level. People who are interested in meaningful discussions tend to write accordingly, while people who are simply interested in barfing their opinions all over cyberspace will rarely bother with things like punctuation or appropriate plurals.

Grocer's'ss'

[Tahar Joblis]

A prison where your parents are the jailers is no better than a prison where the state is the jailer.

Actually, I would call that worse. The state will have common high standards of treatment.

1. Solution: abolish the laws that prohibit N from acquiring and owning property, working in non-exploitative jobs, etc.

I would doubt N has the skills to get a job that would let N pay rent. Or tuition at a private school, which is generally quite expensive. Et cetera.

There's a basic originating problem here. In order for N to acquire wealth, N needs an education. In order to pay for an education, N needs wealth.

In order to educate Nself, N needs to have time, which N will not have if N is working full-time at a low-skill, low-pay job, and knowledge about how to educate Nself, which brings us back to the education problem.

Solution: make it illegal for parents to use force against their children to keep them in the home or to prevent them from going somewhere where they can learn things.

Define "force."

In grad school, yes, and in undergrad, generally yes, but in high school, my experience is that the answer to your question is an emphatic "no." Arguing with a teacher would only get me punished.

So suck it up. I started arguing with teachers in kindergarten.

[Bendira]

Overall, though, my public school teachers have punished dissent rather than encouraging it.

Sounds like you've had crappy teachers, then. That's a shame. If you care strongly about it, you could try to help your district raise more money so they can attract better teachers, and perhaps get involved with the school board to contribute input on curricula and teaching standards.

Beyond the fact that this would be raising money for imprisoning people who haven't commit any crime, it would also just be helping the school pay shitty teachers with tenure's salaries. Also what a waste of time and energy, the government already robs me at gunpoint to pay these horrible horrible teachers. Why am I seriously going to raise money for the government? Are you joking?

[Bendira]

Whether you like it or not (obviously you don't) proper grammar is a demonstration of intelligence.

More importantly (at least IMO), it's a demonstration of courtesy.

When mature people converse, one of the most fundamental elements to the conversation is the idea that they should each make themselves clearly understood to the other. This is why, for instance, in the sciences they train us to minimize our use of jargon even when writing scholarly journal articles. There is also the notion that how you choose to say something will, logically, impact the message that is received. This is why most people realize that certain forms of slang are inappropriate in formal venues. Showing that you've put a little thought and effort into what you say and how you say it is a simple form of respect for your reader/listener.

On internet forums, I don't necessarily assume that grammar or spelling will correlate with intelligence, but I absolutely have found that they directly correlate with maturity level. People who are interested in meaningful discussions tend to write accordingly, while people who are simply interested in barfing their opinions all over cyberspace will rarely bother with things like punctuation or appropriate plurals.

Oh, well I on the other hand am not an elitist douche that snubs people over grammar.

[Norstal]

There's no bargaining/negotiating with an anarcho-capitalist.

Which is funny since there are different flavors of anarchy...not to mention the need to trade...

[Dakini]

Sounds like you've had crappy teachers, then. That's a shame. If you care strongly about it, you could try to help your district raise more money so they can attract better teachers, and perhaps get involved with the school board to contribute input on curricula and teaching standards.

Beyond the fact that this would be raising money for imprisoning people who haven't commit any crime, it would also just be helping the school pay shitty teachers with tenure's salaries. Also what a waste of time and energy, the government already robs me at gunpoint to pay these horrible horrible teachers. Why am I seriously going to raise money for the government? Are you joking?

No.

Maybe it would be a good way to ensure that everyone leaves high school with the ability to form coherent sentences instead of making a monstrosity like "helping the school pay shitty teachers with tenure's salaries." in an argument online.

Also, let's cut this "taxes are theft at gunpoint" nonsense. You don't want to pay taxes, you move somewhere that doesn't have taxes. I suggest Somalia. The rest of us like things like infrastructure, education and agencies that make sure our food isn't poisoned before we buy it.

[Norstal]

Beyond the fact that this would be raising money for imprisoning people who haven't commit any crime, it would also just be helping the school pay shitty teachers with tenure's salaries. Also what a waste of time and energy, the government already robs me at gunpoint to pay these horrible horrible teachers. Why am I seriously going to raise money for the government? Are you joking?

No.

Maybe it would be a good way to ensure that everyone leaves high school with the ability to form coherent sentences instead of making a monstrosity like "helping the school pay shitty teachers with tenure's salaries." in an argument online.

Also, let's cut this "taxes are theft at gunpoint" nonsense. You don't want to pay taxes, you move somewhere that doesn't have taxes. I suggest Somalia.

Or hell, just buy a boat, fishing equipment, and a pillow.