Is School Slavery With Benifits?

[Bendira]

I often wished there was more classroom debate in public school. As somebody who is very opinionated and always has been, I always wanted to debate and challenge my views against others. I feel like that is my "learning style". In the classroom, more "obscure" topics often do not come up for several reasons.

Between my politics class and my philosophy class, I'm actually starting to get sick of debates in school. The diversity is pretty good in my classes too, although obviously I recognise that this isn't universal.

This is all a moot point though really since I'm past the age of mandatory schooling.

In my classes, I was always the raving lunatic for the first couple weeks. However by the end of the semester people became far more receptive to my views. I think it is because they realized anarchism isn't an ideology comprised of schizophrenics who wants people to live in the woods.

[Dakini]

I spent 12 years in public school. I read constantly when I wasn't in class, at band practice, drawing or at the mall with my friends. Often, I stayed up until three in the morning reading, woke up at seven and went to school. I stayed awake during class, snuck some reading in between classes, read on the bus, read before bed. I read fiction, undergraduate science textbooks, philosophical works, books on anthropology (I especially enjoyed reading about the Celts). I read more in high school than I've managed since (because homework in undergrad actually takes time outside class to complete and grad school never really stops) although I've been getting back into reading more often lately.

At any rate, I enjoy reading. I enjoy reading about subjects that people can go to school and study. I have learned much from books. However, I recognize that my knowledge of anthropology and Celtic culture (for instance) is woefully incomplete despite my self-teaching because I don't know the best resources and I haven't had any guidance on the matter. I've never taken a class in anthropology (I couldn't fit them into my schedule). I did take classes in philosophy and I can say that being forced to read certain books (as opposed to just reading what I want) greatly broadened my horizons and exposed me to things I never would have sought on my own.

I'm also being somewhat self-taught now, as I go further into my career. Although I'm still a student and have a supervisor who guides me, I do much literature search on my own and bring in my own ideas. I'm not wholly independent and I would not have got to this stage without the more intensive guidance earlier in my life and education.

So, while I recognize that it is possible to be self-taught, I also recognize that there are often limits to what one can teach oneself without a strong foundation. I also recognize that much more motivation is required for independent learning than being guided through a lesson plan. Further, it is much harder work than having a mentor or a teacher to help explain difficult concepts, clarify certain points, someone to whom you can address questions or who asks you interesting questions. I also recognize that most self-taught individuals have a much narrower focus on their education since they avoid subjects they do not like.

Once again, I should restate that being self-taught means that one must be self-motivated. Being self-motivated means that one will find the time to self-teach. You do not demonstrate that you have this.

I would think out of anybody you would understand my point. Those classes that you took, some of which I am sure you felt were unnecessary, were taking up time you could have spent researching anthropology more. If you wanted to broaden your horizons on anthropology and find out the best works to read, I am sure a simple search on the internet could help you with this. If this didn't, I am sure there is some anthropology nerd websites out there that you could ask questions at and learn from. With the internet, it is easier than ever to actually contact EXPERTS in their respective fields and learn from them. I am sure spending a few months on an anthropology forum would result in you gaining far more knowledge than your anthropology teacher. Granted, it may not be true if your anthropology teacher is quite good. But in high school level classes, typically your teachers are not former experts in the field.

Even if you do not agree with my position, I find it hard to believe that as somebody who was "held back" by the system like I was, you could not atleast see my point.

I'm not sure that I would say I was exactly held back by the system. I would say I was incredibly bored during high school and that my classes generally moved too slowly for my liking. However, if these classes had gone a touch faster then I would have learned more during class and that sort of challenge would have been nice.

There's absolutely no way I would have learned calculus or linear algebra or French or Spanish or biology or chemistry or physics or how to play the flute or even how to write poetry on my own. I just wouldn't have bothered with the last one, but the others are good to know and some of them have been useful to me in my life.

The only problem I really had with high school was that it didn't challenge me enough. However, the structured learning was good for me and doing well in school was good for my self-esteem. I was also sufficiently challenged in my pursuit of a physics degree during my undergraduate career.

[Georgism]

I think it is because they realized anarchism isn't an ideology comprised of schizophrenics who wants people to live in the woods.

Well, not usually anyway.

Also see my edit.

[Dazchan]

In our society, a self taught person who is far more intelligent than somebody who attended college would have trouble finding employment, which is another reason why public education is completely absurd. The whole idea of obtaining pieces of paper to verify you know the material is stupid as hell, and wouldn't exist in a society without public education. Employer's would most likely administer tests at your job interview to determine how much you actually know about the subject, not what a piece of paper says you know.

Employers testing their candidates sounds prohibitively expensive. If only they could outsource this to some other organisation, which could do the tests for them and provide a copy of the results to the candidate in writing, to be presented to the employer, saving both time and money. Oh wait...

Self-educating during summers would do absolutely nothing, since the tests are not based on in depth study of anything. Its teachers job to teach for the test, not actually make you learn anything.

Anyone who knows anything about teaching knows that this statement was extruded from the rear of a bovine.

Even if schools didn't exist, the idea that bookstores and libraries would teach people to read is ludicrous. What business is going to invest thousands of dollars into teaching someone to read in the off chance that they choose to buy ten dollar books from them and not some other company?

Why would it cost thousands of dollars?

Because that's what it does cost.

[Bendira]

Employers testing their candidates sounds prohibitively expensive. If only they could outsource this to some other organisation, which could do the tests for them and provide a copy of the results to the candidate in writing, to be presented to the employer, saving both time and money. Oh wait...

Are you trying to say that public school's test self educated people?

Anyone who knows anything about teaching knows that this statement was extruded from the rear of a bovine.

Anybody who has ever lived in a state that issues regents exams knows what im talking about.

Because that's what it does cost.

Source?

[Mostly armless]

I'm not saying this to be condescending. Earlier, you stated that if you weren't wasting your time doing economics 101 homework (as though that takes much time for someone so intelligent as yourself) then you could spend your time reading various works. Usually someone who reads a lot of books will have better grammar and spelling abilities because they will see many more examples of good grammar and good spelling (unless they read Twilight which was apparently edited by a drunken monkey). So while they may not understand all the nuances or the rules of grammar, they will gain a sense of "something here just doesn't look right" when a grammar rule is broken.

So, for someone who claims to be able to self-educate, your poor grammar tells me that this is unlikely because you probably don't read very many books on your own.

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

[The Cat-Tribe]

I'm not saying this to be condescending. Earlier, you stated that if you weren't wasting your time doing economics 101 homework (as though that takes much time for someone so intelligent as yourself) then you could spend your time reading various works. Usually someone who reads a lot of books will have better grammar and spelling abilities because they will see many more examples of good grammar and good spelling (unless they read Twilight which was apparently edited by a drunken monkey). So while they may not understand all the nuances or the rules of grammar, they will gain a sense of "something here just doesn't look right" when a grammar rule is broken.

So, for someone who claims to be able to self-educate, your poor grammar tells me that this is unlikely because you probably don't read very many books on your own.

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner and become an An-Cap: you can blame everything about your life that you don't like on the fact that you doubt live in the "utopia" of an unworkable anarchist-capitalist system.

For example, if you don't read books -- even though you are not in the public school system anymore, you can blame it on once having been in a public school system.

If you don't have the ideal job, it is because businesses (despite the fact they would be the pinnacle of efficient exchanges in your utopia) fail to recognize that formal education is meaningless.

Etc, etc, etc.

It is truly brilliant!

[Bendira]

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

Because if I was reading a book during class, they would typically take it away from us and hold it until the end of class. Even when I slept they used to squirt me with water.

[The Cat-Tribe]

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

Because the snipers of the Collectivist State would take you out.

I know I never read material during class or engaged my mind in public school other than what was set before me. To do otherwise would be to risk death!

[Tavalu]

Nope..just because something is required of you, does not make it slavery. The funny thing is that at least today when you are looking for a job, if you dont have a high school diploma, they wont even look at you twice. In some small cases they will, but it is unlikely. All the government is trying to do is help you, I personally feel anyone who things school is slavery is either a child who hates school, but will realize later how important it is, or is just someone who needs a reality check. School is not slavery because being a slave is, by definition, is the state of being owned by someone else. School does not own you, it is a required "course" that you must take to better your life in the future. Sorry, but without school we would live in a country that is, well, terrible. All school is trying to do is HELP you succeed in life. It is not trying to control you in any way. Slavery never had the intention of helping anyone, school does. Therefor school and slavery are on to opposite sides. Forcing you to do something is not slavery, unfair maybe, but not slavery. I mean your boss tells you do answer the phone, your boss tells you that you are taking a pay cut, your boss tells you that you will be cleaning the bathroom, would that make him a slave owner and you a slave? No. The government tells the people that they have to go to school? Does that mean the government thinks of us as slaves? No. The argument is silly.

[Mostly armless]

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

Because if I was reading a book during class, they would typically take it away from us and hold it until the end of class. Even when I slept they used to squirt me with water.

So what do you actually do all through your lessons?

[Bendira]

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

Because the snipers of the Collectivist State would take you out.

I know I never read material during class or engaged my mind in public school other than what was set before me. To do otherwise would be to risk death!

They would snipe you with waterbottles yes. I was in a class of 250 students, and I was ranked 50th with an 85 average lol. Sorta paints the picture of the type of school I went to.

[Farnhamia]

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner and become an An-Cap: you can blame everything about your life that you don't like on the fact that you doubt live in the "utopia" of an unworkable anarchist-capitalist system.

For example, if you don't read books -- even though you are not in the public school system anymore, you can blame it on once having been in a public school system.

If you don't have the ideal job, it is because businesses (despite the fact they would be the pinnacle of efficient exchanges in your utopia) fail to recognize that formal education is meaningless.

Etc, etc, etc.

It is truly brilliant!

Yep, and if you have to do something you don't like, you can claim that the state is holding a gun to your head. And when asked for proof on anything, you just wave your hands and dismiss empirical data as meaningless in the philosophically rarefied air of your Cloudcuckooland.

[Hydesland]

Are you trying to say that public school's test self educated people?

They do in fact. It was probably by far the most effective way to get me to learn anything at least, because it forces you to remember every detail which I would never bother learning otherwise. If there was no maths test, I probably would have just about grasped calculus, differentiation, vectors etc... However, testing my knowledge forces me to do numerous practice tests and problems until I can integrate or differentiate any function in my sleep (something which I've found quite useful now that I've reached university education). If there was no test looming, I would have shirked, that's how I am, and that's how most people are.

[Bendira]

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner and become an An-Cap: you can blame everything about your life that you don't like on the fact that you doubt live in the "utopia" of an unworkable anarchist-capitalist system.

For example, if you don't read books -- even though you are not in the public school system anymore, you can blame it on once having been in a public school system.

If you don't have the ideal job, it is because businesses (despite the fact they would be the pinnacle of efficient exchanges in your utopia) fail to recognize that formal education is meaningless.

Etc, etc, etc.

It is truly brilliant!

Lol, well wouldn't you agree that you would have more time available to you to read books if you weren't spending it in a classroom or doing homework?

[Los Cabreddes]

No but the draft is slavery without benefits. Too bad we didn't remember what the Second Amendment was for.

[Bendira]

Are you trying to say that public school's test self educated people?

They do in fact. It was probably by far the most effective way to get me to learn anything at least, because it forces you to remember every detail which I would never bother learning otherwise. If there was no maths test, I probably would have just about grasped calculus, differentiation, vectors etc... However, testing my knowledge forces me to do numerous practice tests and problems until I can integrate or differentiate any function in my sleep (something which I've found quite useful now that I've reached university education). If there was no test looming, I would have shirked, that's how I am, and that's how most people are.

Lol, so if you go read a biography about Wallenstein during the 30 Years War, and you take the test and get two watered down questions about him, that was worth it?

[Farnhamia]

I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner and become an An-Cap: you can blame everything about your life that you don't like on the fact that you doubt live in the "utopia" of an unworkable anarchist-capitalist system.

For example, if you don't read books -- even though you are not in the public school system anymore, you can blame it on once having been in a public school system.

If you don't have the ideal job, it is because businesses (despite the fact they would be the pinnacle of efficient exchanges in your utopia) fail to recognize that formal education is meaningless.

Etc, etc, etc.

It is truly brilliant!

Lol, well wouldn't you agree that you would have more time available to you to read books if you weren't spending it in a classroom or doing homework?

Available? Certainly. You're making a false dichotomy, though, by implying that classroom time and homework are useless. Or so it seems.

[The Cat-Tribe]

I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner and become an An-Cap: you can blame everything about your life that you don't like on the fact that you doubt live in the "utopia" of an unworkable anarchist-capitalist system.

For example, if you don't read books -- even though you are not in the public school system anymore, you can blame it on once having been in a public school system.

If you don't have the ideal job, it is because businesses (despite the fact they would be the pinnacle of efficient exchanges in your utopia) fail to recognize that formal education is meaningless.

Etc, etc, etc.

It is truly brilliant!

Lol, well wouldn't you agree that you would have more time available to you to read books if you weren't spending it in a classroom or doing homework?

1. Non-responsive.

2. Randomly reading books on your own is not education (especially unless and until you have a base education in both the subject matter you are reading about and how to learn it). That is why, for example, you've already admitted you would have voluntarily gone to public school and are now going to college -- rather than just "reading books."

[Dakini]

Why are you spending your time in school sleeping? If your desire to learn is so great, why aren't you using that time to read instead?

Because if I was reading a book during class, they would typically take it away from us and hold it until the end of class. Even when I slept they used to squirt me with water.

You set the book inside your desk.

Or you do the homework they assigned at the beginning of class during class (between taking notes, of course), which frees up time after class to read. Duh.

[Mostly armless]

They do in fact. It was probably by far the most effective way to get me to learn anything at least, because it forces you to remember every detail which I would never bother learning otherwise. If there was no maths test, I probably would have just about grasped calculus, differentiation, vectors etc... However, testing my knowledge forces me to do numerous practice tests and problems until I can integrate or differentiate any function in my sleep (something which I've found quite useful now that I've reached university education). If there was no test looming, I would have shirked, that's how I am, and that's how most people are.

Lol, so if you go read a biography about Wallenstein during the 30 Years War, and you take the test and get two watered down questions about him, that was worth it?

If you know the test questions will be easy, why have you read the book in the first place? Seems strange to me.

[Dakini]

Because the snipers of the Collectivist State would take you out.

I know I never read material during class or engaged my mind in public school other than what was set before me. To do otherwise would be to risk death!

They would snipe you with waterbottles yes. I was in a class of 250 students, and I was ranked 50th with an 85 average lol. Sorta paints the picture of the type of school I went to.

That compared to your classmates, you were mediocre?

[Bendira]

Lol, well wouldn't you agree that you would have more time available to you to read books if you weren't spending it in a classroom or doing homework?

Available? Certainly. You're making a false dichotomy, though, by implying that classroom time and homework are useless. Or so it seems.

It might not be completely useless, but it also is far more inefficient than the alternative if the student actually wishes to learn. And not only that, but it is compulsory.

[Bendira]

They would snipe you with waterbottles yes. I was in a class of 250 students, and I was ranked 50th with an 85 average lol. Sorta paints the picture of the type of school I went to.

That compared to your classmates, you were mediocre?

No, that in a school of 250 people I was in the top 5th of my class with an 85. And I slept through all the classes.

[Hydesland]

They do in fact. It was probably by far the most effective way to get me to learn anything at least, because it forces you to remember every detail which I would never bother learning otherwise. If there was no maths test, I probably would have just about grasped calculus, differentiation, vectors etc... However, testing my knowledge forces me to do numerous practice tests and problems until I can integrate or differentiate any function in my sleep (something which I've found quite useful now that I've reached university education). If there was no test looming, I would have shirked, that's how I am, and that's how most people are.

Lol, so if you go read a biography about Wallenstein during the 30 Years War, and you take the test and get two watered down questions about him, that was worth it?

I don't remember my questions being particularly watered down, but any test is a self correction mechanism, it ensures people don't shirk and overlook the details. Because you don't know what questions will arise, even if there are only two, you necessarily will need to have good knowledge of the entire work, it gives a strong incentive to thus increase your knowledge in general of whatever subjects you take. And I'm not sure what your point about it being worth it is, but testing people on their knowledge is a far greater way to ensure students actually engage in knowledge accumulation than simply giving them a textbook and not giving a fuck afterwards.