Is School Slavery With Benifits?

[Dakini]

But if you teach yourself about how the market works (like you said you would) you can become a businessman, deal in stocks and shares, or whatever you like. Surely this is better than slaving away in public education where the economists are probably all statists anyway and will likely try and indoctrinate you?

The problem is I didn't have time to study how the market works, because I was busy doing my "Home and Career" homework.

Why would anyone take a class called "Home and Career"?

[Bendira]

If you truly are this condescending towards people who you view as having inferrior reading and writing skills than you, then I am willing to bet you lack social intelligence. Unless of course you are just being condescending towards me for the sake of this argument, in which case I would just tell you to stop insulting me and get back to the actual topic.

I'm not saying this to be condescending. Earlier, you stated that if you weren't wasting your time doing economics 101 homework (as though that takes much time for someone so intelligent as yourself) then you could spend your time reading various works. Usually someone who reads a lot of books will have better grammar and spelling abilities because they will see many more examples of good grammar and good spelling (unless they read Twilight which was apparently edited by a drunken monkey). So while they may not understand all the nuances or the rules of grammar, they will gain a sense of "something here just doesn't look right" when a grammar rule is broken.

So, for someone who claims to be able to self-educate, your poor grammar tells me that this is unlikely because you probably don't read very many books on your own.

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

[Johz]

**Employers. Not employer's.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with this little slip of paper. Here in England it is relatively easy to get little slips of paper for anything. My friend managed to do a Dutch A level two years early with minimal interuption to normal lessons, as a native Dutch speaker. At school - at a compulsory center for education - it is relatively easy to take exams for most subjects. Indeed, in most cases schools are quite keen on paying for exams, because passes pay dividends for them.

Employers could do that, but why should they bother? They have pieces of paper. These pieces of paper, however stupid they sound, have to be worked for. Trust me. I know. So why should they bother testing all their would-be employees?

Because in a society without regulations and standards on schooling, grades would no longer be considered a universal measure of how much you know and don't know.

Which is good how? A universal standard that allows for easy comparison of candidates would suit your AnCap world more than this one. I just don't get how this is benifiting anyone.

[Bendira]

The problem is I didn't have time to study how the market works, because I was busy doing my "Home and Career" homework.

Why would anyone take a class called "Home and Career"?

It was mandatory We learned how to sew and make pie.

[Bendira]

Because in a society without regulations and standards on schooling, grades would no longer be considered a universal measure of how much you know and don't know.

Which is good how? A universal standard that allows for easy comparison of candidates would suit your AnCap world more than this one. I just don't get how this is benifiting anyone.

A universal standard may be born out of the markets of an AnCap society. But what my point is, is that the school system itself should not be repsonsible for the grading process. It should either be up to employers or contractors hired by employers to determine the employees aptitudes. This would eliminate discrimination based on what school you went to, and give self educated people a chance to demonstrate what they know.

[Johz]

Why would anyone take a class called "Home and Career"?

It was mandatory We learned how to sew and make pie.

Fair enough. I believe my mother's only A level was in domestic science, and she turned out as a fantastic teacher and an even better cook, so I reckon these sorts of subjects are more important than we think.

[Georgism]

Reposting in case you missed it:

The problem is I didn't have time to study how the market works, because I was busy doing my "Home and Career" homework.

Why are you on NSG instead of learning how the market works?

I'm genuinely interested.

[Bendira]

It was mandatory We learned how to sew and make pie.

Fair enough. I believe my mother's only A level was in domestic science, and she turned out as a fantastic teacher and an even better cook, so I reckon these sorts of subjects are more important than we think.

Lol, its where I learned to crack my eggs into a seperate bowl and sniff them before I dump them into my cake batter.

[Norstal]

Which is good how? A universal standard that allows for easy comparison of candidates would suit your AnCap world more than this one. I just don't get how this is benifiting anyone.

A universal standard may be born out of the markets of an AnCap society. But what my point is, is that the school system itself should not be repsonsible for the grading process. It should either be up to employers or contractors hired by employers to determine the employees aptitudes. This would eliminate discrimination based on what school you went to, and give self educated people a chance to demonstrate what they know.

You mean like the SAT or ACT test?

[Bendira]

Reposting in case you missed it:

The problem is I didn't have time to study how the market works, because I was busy doing my "Home and Career" homework.

Why are you on NSG instead of learning how the market works?

I'm genuinely interested.

When I am on NSG, I am constantly challenged by others. My beliefs are under constant attack, and I actually learn quite a bit from posting here. Whenever somebody legitimately stumps me, I go research the topic further and see if they are in fact correct. I probably have learned more about philosophy and politics from debating on NSG than I ever did in any classroom growing up.

[Sdaeriji]

Fair enough. I believe my mother's only A level was in domestic science, and she turned out as a fantastic teacher and an even better cook, so I reckon these sorts of subjects are more important than we think.

Lol, its where I learned to crack my eggs into a seperate bowl and sniff them before I dump them into my cake batter.

It's funny that you think that is useless knowledge.

[Bendira]

A universal standard may be born out of the markets of an AnCap society. But what my point is, is that the school system itself should not be repsonsible for the grading process. It should either be up to employers or contractors hired by employers to determine the employees aptitudes. This would eliminate discrimination based on what school you went to, and give self educated people a chance to demonstrate what they know.

You mean like the SAT or ACT test?

Exactly, except perhaps more focused on the particular field of study. For instance applying for a mechanic job, you probably aren't going to get a test like the SAT.

[Johz]

Which is good how? A universal standard that allows for easy comparison of candidates would suit your AnCap world more than this one. I just don't get how this is benifiting anyone.

A universal standard may be born out of the markets of an AnCap society. But what my point is, is that the school system itself should not be repsonsible for the grading process. It should either be up to employers or contractors hired by employers to determine the employees aptitudes. This would eliminate discrimination based on what school you went to, and give self educated people a chance to demonstrate what they know.

True, and this is major failing of many universities. (a sweet smell is drifting up from downstairs, this post will be short...) Here in Britain we do not have this sort of problem at GCSEs or A levels, due to third-party examining bodies, I don't know if this is the same where you live although I expect so. (smell's getting stronger...) There are problems with the number of these bodies (about four or five, Georgism will back me up here) so a universal standard is somewhat lost, but there is still the same idea that one GCSE is one GCSE is one GCSE. And it isn't a BTEC or a Bacheloriate either.

[Georgism]

When I am on NSG, I am constantly challenged by others. My beliefs are under constant attack, and I actually learn quite a bit from posting here. Whenever somebody legitimately stumps me, I go research the topic further and see if they are in fact correct. I probably have learned more about philosophy and politics from debating on NSG than I ever did in any classroom growing up.

So NSG is teaching you more about the market than reading actual, proper books on the subject would?

[Bendira]

Lol, its where I learned to crack my eggs into a seperate bowl and sniff them before I dump them into my cake batter.

It's funny that you think that is useless knowledge.

Lol, it actually is useful knowledge. Its just that sometimes, when im really really hungry and want to nom some cake, I skip that step and just dump the egg directly into the batter. I guess you can say I like to live dangerously.

[Georgism]

I guess you can say I like to live dangerously.

Right on the edge man.

[Cyber Utopia]

If school's slavery, slaves have a fucking easy time.

[Bendira]

When I am on NSG, I am constantly challenged by others. My beliefs are under constant attack, and I actually learn quite a bit from posting here. Whenever somebody legitimately stumps me, I go research the topic further and see if they are in fact correct. I probably have learned more about philosophy and politics from debating on NSG than I ever did in any classroom growing up.

So NSG is teaching you more about the market than reading actual, proper books on the subject would?

NSG itself isn't. But whenever I am debating somebody and they, for instance, use an economics phrase I do not understand, I go research what it means. I have read books in response to me not understanding things and opposing arguments I have encountered on NSG. NSG has also made me aware of many different political philosophies I never knew existed previously.

[Dakini]

I'm not saying this to be condescending. Earlier, you stated that if you weren't wasting your time doing economics 101 homework (as though that takes much time for someone so intelligent as yourself) then you could spend your time reading various works. Usually someone who reads a lot of books will have better grammar and spelling abilities because they will see many more examples of good grammar and good spelling (unless they read Twilight which was apparently edited by a drunken monkey). So while they may not understand all the nuances or the rules of grammar, they will gain a sense of "something here just doesn't look right" when a grammar rule is broken.

So, for someone who claims to be able to self-educate, your poor grammar tells me that this is unlikely because you probably don't read very many books on your own.

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

I spent 12 years in public school. I read constantly when I wasn't in class, at band practice, drawing or at the mall with my friends. Often, I stayed up until three in the morning reading, woke up at seven and went to school. I stayed awake during class, snuck some reading in between classes, read on the bus, read before bed. I read fiction, undergraduate science textbooks, philosophical works, books on anthropology (I especially enjoyed reading about the Celts). I read more in high school than I've managed since (because homework in undergrad actually takes time outside class to complete and grad school never really stops) although I've been getting back into reading more often lately.

At any rate, I enjoy reading. I enjoy reading about subjects that people can go to school and study. I have learned much from books. However, I recognize that my knowledge of anthropology and Celtic culture (for instance) is woefully incomplete despite my self-teaching because I don't know the best resources and I haven't had any guidance on the matter. I've never taken a class in anthropology (I couldn't fit them into my schedule). I did take classes in philosophy and I can say that being forced to read certain books (as opposed to just reading what I want) greatly broadened my horizons and exposed me to things I never would have sought on my own.

I'm also being somewhat self-taught now, as I go further into my career. Although I'm still a student and have a supervisor who guides me, I do much literature search on my own and bring in my own ideas. I'm not wholly independent and I would not have got to this stage without the more intensive guidance earlier in my life and education.

So, while I recognize that it is possible to be self-taught, I also recognize that there are often limits to what one can teach oneself without a strong foundation. I also recognize that much more motivation is required for independent learning than being guided through a lesson plan. Further, it is much harder work than having a mentor or a teacher to help explain difficult concepts, clarify certain points, someone to whom you can address questions or who asks you interesting questions. I also recognize that most self-taught individuals have a much narrower focus on their education since they avoid subjects they do not like.

Once again, I should restate that being self-taught means that one must be self-motivated. Being self-motivated means that one will find the time to self-teach. You do not demonstrate that you have this.

[Dakini]

Why would anyone take a class called "Home and Career"?

It was mandatory We learned how to sew and make pie.

Oh! This was in junior high school. I understand.

I thought this was a class you were taking in college and was very confused.

[Bendira]

I am not self-educated, and I don't read as many books as I would like. Why not? Because I spend about 12 years in public school sleeping during class, instead of being actively engaged in what I wanted to learn.

I spent 12 years in public school. I read constantly when I wasn't in class, at band practice, drawing or at the mall with my friends. Often, I stayed up until three in the morning reading, woke up at seven and went to school. I stayed awake during class, snuck some reading in between classes, read on the bus, read before bed. I read fiction, undergraduate science textbooks, philosophical works, books on anthropology (I especially enjoyed reading about the Celts). I read more in high school than I've managed since (because homework in undergrad actually takes time outside class to complete and grad school never really stops) although I've been getting back into reading more often lately.

At any rate, I enjoy reading. I enjoy reading about subjects that people can go to school and study. I have learned much from books. However, I recognize that my knowledge of anthropology and Celtic culture (for instance) is woefully incomplete despite my self-teaching because I don't know the best resources and I haven't had any guidance on the matter. I've never taken a class in anthropology (I couldn't fit them into my schedule). I did take classes in philosophy and I can say that being forced to read certain books (as opposed to just reading what I want) greatly broadened my horizons and exposed me to things I never would have sought on my own.

I'm also being somewhat self-taught now, as I go further into my career. Although I'm still a student and have a supervisor who guides me, I do much literature search on my own and bring in my own ideas. I'm not wholly independent and I would not have got to this stage without the more intensive guidance earlier in my life and education.

So, while I recognize that it is possible to be self-taught, I also recognize that there are often limits to what one can teach oneself without a strong foundation. I also recognize that much more motivation is required for independent learning than being guided through a lesson plan. Further, it is much harder work than having a mentor or a teacher to help explain difficult concepts, clarify certain points, someone to whom you can address questions or who asks you interesting questions. I also recognize that most self-taught individuals have a much narrower focus on their education since they avoid subjects they do not like.

Once again, I should restate that being self-taught means that one must be self-motivated. Being self-motivated means that one will find the time to self-teach. You do not demonstrate that you have this.

I would think out of anybody you would understand my point. Those classes that you took, some of which I am sure you felt were unnecessary, were taking up time you could have spent researching anthropology more. If you wanted to broaden your horizons on anthropology and find out the best works to read, I am sure a simple search on the internet could help you with this. If this didn't, I am sure there is some anthropology nerd websites out there that you could ask questions at and learn from. With the internet, it is easier than ever to actually contact EXPERTS in their respective fields and learn from them. I am sure spending a few months on an anthropology forum would result in you gaining far more knowledge than your anthropology teacher. Granted, it may not be true if your anthropology teacher is quite good. But in high school level classes, typically your teachers are not former experts in the field.

Even if you do not agree with my position, I find it hard to believe that as somebody who was "held back" by the system like I was, you could not atleast see my point.

[Georgism]

NSG itself isn't. But whenever I am debating somebody and they, for instance, use an economics phrase I do not understand, I go research what it means. I have read books in response to me not understanding things and opposing arguments I have encountered on NSG. NSG has also made me aware of many different political philosophies I never knew existed previously.

I see. This is fairly similar to how I approach extra-curricular learning, in that I also look up things I don't understand.

As for the political philosophy part, I tend to use the wikipedia route. Go to any political system (for example: Constitutional monarchy) and read it. I then slowly begin working my way through the other ideologies listed on the right of the screen under "Forms of government". Then I follow the other links etc. in each article, and read through it all.

If I were more interested in politics I'd read books and other sources on various philosophies that I find interesting. I'm not, so I don't.

[Bendira]

NSG itself isn't. But whenever I am debating somebody and they, for instance, use an economics phrase I do not understand, I go research what it means. I have read books in response to me not understanding things and opposing arguments I have encountered on NSG. NSG has also made me aware of many different political philosophies I never knew existed previously.

I see. This is fairly similar to how I approach extra-curricular learning, in that I also look up things I don't understand.

As for the political philosophy part, I tend to use the wikipedia route. Go to any political system (for example: Constitutional monarchy) and read it. I then slowly begin working my way through the other ideologies listed on the right of the screen under "Forms of government". Then I follow the other links etc. in each article, and read through it all.

If I were more interested in politics I'd read books and other sources on various philosophies that I find interesting. I'm not, so I don't.

I often wished there was more classroom debate in public school. As somebody who is very opinionated and always has been, I always wanted to debate and challenge my views against others. I feel like that is my "learning style". In the classroom, more "obscure" topics often do not come up for several reasons. Often times this is because a classroom lacks the diversity of an internet forum for instance. In a classroom, you are lucky if you find a single fascist, communist, anarchist etc. to actually defend their views. Many teachers do not even enter these area's of philosophy and politics, and the ones who do often mischaracterize their positions. I was just really frustrated growing up and going through that environment which I felt was anti-intellectual. I am no commie, but I wish we would have atleast spent a week on communism. I am sure some classes do, but I never did in school. And I wish the teacher didn't just say it was a failed idea because people don't want to work for free. Granted I would agree with that statement, but it is condescending to the ideology to just simply attempt to discredit it with a sweeping statement like that.

[Mediterreania]

In an anarchist society, schools would still exist. Don't be ridiculous.

Where did I say they wouldn't?

Sorry, that's the impression I got.

[Georgism]

I often wished there was more classroom debate in public school. As somebody who is very opinionated and always has been, I always wanted to debate and challenge my views against others. I feel like that is my "learning style". In the classroom, more "obscure" topics often do not come up for several reasons.

Between my politics class and my philosophy class, I'm actually starting to get sick of debates in school. The diversity is pretty good in my classes too, although obviously I recognise that this isn't universal.

This is all a moot point though really since I'm past the age of mandatory schooling and so I choose to be there. As do you. You're an adult now, which means that you're responsible enough to make your own decisions. If being in school/college bothers you so much, perhaps you should consider withdrawing from school and teaching yourself about something that is relevant to your interests/future career?