Flaws in a barter society

[Mercator Terra]

how are you going to barter with the thousands of workers who made your car?

how are you going to barter with the dozens who work at the dealership?

how are you going to get a "goat loan" to cover the 500 goats you are going to need to pay for your car?

you seem to have an irrational dislike of the bankers who make your lifestyle possible.

Wow, I wish you would actually read my posts.
I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.

[Natapoc]

Huge fail. In a barter society, businesses aren't allowed to innovate because there is no incentive to innovate. After the creation of credit markets during the Renaissance period, innovation was pervasive. We would have any of the innovative products we have today if credit and capital markets were closed in favor of a barter system.

Which is why nothing was ever invented before the renaissance!

I'm of course not saying a barter economy is the way to go but the idea that "businesses aren't allowed to innovate because there is no incentive to innovate" Kinda goes against recorded history...

[Free Soviets]

In a barter society, businesses aren't allowed to innovate because there is no incentive to innovate.

what? this is confused in at least two different ways. if it were true there is no incentive to innovate that doesn't mean that innovation isn't allowed. and moreover, there clearly is an incentive to innovate - innovation gets me more goats.

[Andaluciae]

The big downside, of course, is the fact that there are some serious transaction costs. Specifically, there's no standardized unit of value. Price signals are extremely hard to read.

[Ashmoria]

how are you going to barter with the thousands of workers who made your car?

how are you going to barter with the dozens who work at the dealership?

how are you going to get a "goat loan" to cover the 500 goats you are going to need to pay for your car?

you seem to have an irrational dislike of the bankers who make your lifestyle possible.

Wow, I wish you would actually read my posts.
I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.

no they arent.

they provide a necessary service that makes modern life possible.

without credit you couldnt buy a car, a house, an education, or any of the many things that you dont have the upfront money for.

maybe you would prefer spending most of your life saving up money for a house but i was happy to have the bank give me the money and i pay it back to them a little at a time.

[Greed and Death]

An acquaintance was telling me the other day how money is evil and the cause for many social problems. He suggested that we go back to a barter society. Trading services and goods for other services and goods. I see how this could work on a small scale, but I don't think it's a sustainable thing in the long run. What do you think?

It is really impossible to tax in a barter society as how would you uniformly tax if everyone can pay in different items.
And if you set a commodity that the tax must be paid in, that commodity becomes a currency as everyone seeks to have enough to pay their tax.

[Caninope]

That expectation only exists because we have a stable monetary system. If you go Zimbabwe or something then who knows how much an xbox should cost.


Thats only because you didn't grow up with cows as part of a barter system.

EXACTLY. Goats and sheep or coffee, or even sticks (look up 'tally sticks') would work just fine. Just because you are familiar with money (dollar bills that is) doesn't mean it is the best system. In fact, it is more likely it is flawed if the powers that be, in an unequal society, want to keep it in place. Remember, we live in an unequal society (few haves and MANY have nots), and it got that way somehow. I would argue that the current monetary system is a big part of that.

Ooh, that's funny. More like: few haves, lots of have somes, few have nots. America is primarily working/middle/(lower) professional class, which together, make up the large "middle class."

[Caninope]

so it doesnt matter to you that you wont GET coffee (since you live in canada which is far from coffee growing areas) as long as bankers dont get to skim?

that seems silly to me.

I think you are missing the point entirely. Let me try again.
Dollar bills are widely accepted as being a good currency, because they are easy to carry in your pocket, easy to produce, etc.. I am not arguing against their utility in that regard.
However, in our current system, the power to expand or contract the monetary supply is controlled by private corporations (called banks). This is of course a simplification, but generally holds true. Money is created as loans, at interest. Therefore, essentially every dollar bill that you and everyone else has in their pocket is earning interest for banks. If you are interested in learning more about this, read 'Web of Debt'.
Thus, the economy is constantly being skimmed by what I view as parasites, otherwise known as bankers.
Soooooooooo, I would prefer to use coffee, or any other type of currency, if I could eliminate that whole phenomenon.
Now are you going to ask me if I would rather use Folgers or Maxwell House???

You have a very flawed idea on how money is made. Money is printed when the Federal Reserve decides to sell securities. Money can also be made without every making anything at all, because in the economy item is worth more than the sum of its parts.

[Caninope]

how are you going to barter with the thousands of workers who made your car?

how are you going to barter with the dozens who work at the dealership?

how are you going to get a "goat loan" to cover the 500 goats you are going to need to pay for your car?

you seem to have an irrational dislike of the bankers who make your lifestyle possible.

Wow, I wish you would actually read my posts.
I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.

1. Bankers do make the Western lifestyle affordable, because no one can afford to buy a house out of pocket, and most people can't just buy a car out of pocket. Thanks to banks, companies can get some capital, allowing their business to get off the ground.
2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?
3. Show me how we would have a higher standard of living without bankers, and from there, credit.

[Natapoc]

Wow, I wish you would actually read my posts.
I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.

1. Bankers do make the Western lifestyle affordable, because no one can afford to buy a house out of pocket, and most people can't just buy a car out of pocket. Thanks to banks, companies can get some capital, allowing their business to get off the ground.
2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?
3. Show me how we would have a higher standard of living without bankers, and from there, credit.

There was a time when everyone could afford a house. They simply walked up to an area. Dug out a foundation, cut down a few trees and built the house they needed.

[Ashmoria]

1. Bankers do make the Western lifestyle affordable, because no one can afford to buy a house out of pocket, and most people can't just buy a car out of pocket. Thanks to banks, companies can get some capital, allowing their business to get off the ground.
2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?
3. Show me how we would have a higher standard of living without bankers, and from there, credit.

There was a time when everyone could afford a house. They simply walked up to an area. Dug out a foundation, cut down a few trees and built the house they needed.

those days are long gone

and few people today would be satisfied with the hovel they would build with their own hands.

[Caninope]

1. Bankers do make the Western lifestyle affordable, because no one can afford to buy a house out of pocket, and most people can't just buy a car out of pocket. Thanks to banks, companies can get some capital, allowing their business to get off the ground.
2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?
3. Show me how we would have a higher standard of living without bankers, and from there, credit.

There was a time when everyone could afford a house. They simply walked up to an area. Dug out a foundation, cut down a few trees and built the house they needed.

And that won't work nowadays, as there is no frontier left, as well as a shrinking number of trees. Besides, homes have become increasingly complex.

[Andaluciae]

1. Bankers do make the Western lifestyle affordable, because no one can afford to buy a house out of pocket, and most people can't just buy a car out of pocket. Thanks to banks, companies can get some capital, allowing their business to get off the ground.
2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?
3. Show me how we would have a higher standard of living without bankers, and from there, credit.

There was a time when everyone could afford a house. They simply walked up to an area. Dug out a foundation, cut down a few trees and built the house they needed.

The problem being, of course, that said house was the dwelling for some eight-to-ten people, most of whom wouldn't past the age of fifteen. And let's not talk about the mother's life expectancy--a new definition of short and awful.

Of course, those ten kids were needed to work the hardscrabble farm. Produce just enough corn to feed the kids, and maybe some chickens, goats, pigs--and for the lucky, a cow for milk, and then hamburgs when she got too old.

[Dypsomaniacs]

2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?

Whenever the economy goes bad the banks do profit from hard working peoples losses. Maybe not every single last bank that has ever existed, but that is a ludicrous point to begin with...
Person A gets laid off, can't find work, misses a couple of house payments, bank repossess home, kicks person A along with family into streets.
At that point - whether the bank holds onto the property or sells it they have not lost any money, while person A is out years of mortgage payments and homeless.
If they hold onto the property and wait for prices to rise - Well, they make a tidy profit for ruining a families lives...

The scary part of this is that the people that own the big banks also have a major role in creating the economic collapse that put person A out on the streets in the first place...

Money is only as valuable as we choose to make it -
If someone were to create an item that everyone had to have, but they only accepted live cows for payment - Your money would be basically worthless in obtaining that item...

By the way - How can anyone think it is a good thing when the American people (Uncle Sam) have to bail out the same banks that help to create the problem in the first place?

[Bendira]

2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?

Whenever the economy goes bad the banks do profit from hard working peoples losses. Maybe not every single last bank that has ever existed, but that is a ludicrous point to begin with...
Person A gets laid off, can't find work, misses a couple of house payments, bank repossess home, kicks person A along with family into streets.
At that point - whether the bank holds onto the property or sells it they have not lost any money, while person A is out years of mortgage payments and homeless.
If they hold onto the property and wait for prices to rise - Well, they make a tidy profit for ruining a families lives...

The scary part of this is that the people that own the big banks also have a major role in creating the economic collapse that put person A out on the streets in the first place...

Money is only as valuable as we choose to make it -
If someone were to create an item that everyone had to have, but they only accepted live cows for payment - Your money would be basically worthless in obtaining that item...

By the way - How can anyone think it is a good thing when the American people (Uncle Sam) have to bail out the same banks that help to create the problem in the first place?

I really hate it when people play up banking conspiracies. There is no conspiracy, I mean, I can tell you how to fix it right now. Decentralize the banking system.

[Starligh]

Money has a fixed value, trade items do not.

No one is in doubt about how much a $20 bill is worth, but the same is not true for a goat.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

2. Banks do better in an economic recession? Is that why so many banks failed during the first few years of the Great Depression in America? Or why Uncle Sam had to become the banker's banker? Or why JP Morgan had to lend money to banks through his entire lifetime, including the Panic of 1907? Or why Banks suffered the most in the Panic of 1837?

Whenever the economy goes bad the banks do profit from hard working peoples losses. Maybe not every single last bank that has ever existed, but that is a ludicrous point to begin with...
Person A gets laid off, can't find work, misses a couple of house payments, bank repossess home, kicks person A along with family into streets.
At that point - whether the bank holds onto the property or sells it they have not lost any money, while person A is out years of mortgage payments and homeless.
If they hold onto the property and wait for prices to rise - Well, they make a tidy profit for ruining a families lives...

The scary part of this is that the people that own the big banks also have a major role in creating the economic collapse that put person A out on the streets in the first place...

Money is only as valuable as we choose to make it -
If someone were to create an item that everyone had to have, but they only accepted live cows for payment - Your money would be basically worthless in obtaining that item...

By the way - How can anyone think it is a good thing when the American people (Uncle Sam) have to bail out the same banks that help to create the problem in the first place?

HEAR HEAR.

I always find it amazing when people defend banks by saying they make our standard of living possible, as the divide between the haves and the have nots continually widens. Most of those people are probably the ones most hurt by banking policies.
My opinion is that the majority of people believe the propaganda put out by the corporate run media that banks have the people's best interest at heart, when the opposite is true. They have profits as their main motive, the same as any other corporation, and if maximizing profit comes at the cost of the average joe, so be it.

[Cosmopoles]

HEAR HEAR.

I always find it amazing when people defend banks by saying they make our standard of living possible, as the divide between the haves and the have nots continually widens. Most of those people are probably the ones most hurt by banking policies.
My opinion is that the majority of people believe the propaganda put out by the corporate run media that banks have the people's best interest at heart, when the opposite is true. They have profits as their main motive, the same as any other corporation, and if maximizing profit comes at the cost of the average joe, so be it.

You still haven't explained how barter invalidates the existence of banks.

[UCUMAY]

We already live in a barter system. I go to work in exchange for money. I use the money from my work to barter/buy food which the farmer grew to bring to market to trade for money. Enough said.

[Bendira]

We already live in a barter system. I go to work in exchange for money. I use the money from my work to barter/buy food which the farmer grew to bring to market to trade for money. Enough said.

I love you

[UCUMAY]

We already live in a barter system. I go to work in exchange for money. I use the money from my work to barter/buy food which the farmer grew to bring to market to trade for money. Enough said.

I love you

Thank you

[Free Soviets]

the divide between the haves and the have nots continually widens.

actually, we know that we can at least hold that steady - we've done it before:


and on the world scale, we're getting better. really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

[Canadian Intellectuals]

HEAR HEAR.

I always find it amazing when people defend banks by saying they make our standard of living possible, as the divide between the haves and the have nots continually widens. Most of those people are probably the ones most hurt by banking policies.
My opinion is that the majority of people believe the propaganda put out by the corporate run media that banks have the people's best interest at heart, when the opposite is true. They have profits as their main motive, the same as any other corporation, and if maximizing profit comes at the cost of the average joe, so be it.

You still haven't explained how barter invalidates the existence of banks.

No I haven't, because that isn't what I am arguing.

[Bendira]

I love you

Thank you

No but srsly

[Hydesland]

I always find it amazing when people defend banks by saying they make our standard of living possible

You find it amazing when people defend banks by saying an objective fact, proven thousands of times empirically and theoretically?