Flaws in a barter society

[Dypsomaniacs]

Yeah - unemployment, homelessness, hunger, drug addiction, overpoulated prisons - Those things are working so well... Look at the evidence.

how are any of those caused by (or made worse by) fiat currency versus, say, gold?

Thomas Jefferson - “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

Investopedia explains Fiat Money
Most of the world's paper money is fiat money. Because fiat money is not linked to physical reserves, it risks becoming worthless due to hyperinflation. If people lose faith in a nation's paper currency, the money will no longer hold any value.

We need to understand why a fiat system is so popular with economists, the business community, bankers, and government officials. One explanation is that a fiat monetary system allows power and influence to fall into the hands of those who control the creation of new money, and to those who get to use the money or credit early in its circulation. The insidious and eventual cost falls on unidentified victims, who are usually oblivious to the cause of their plight.

[Evolvtopia]

We here at Evolvtopia find this particular forum and all it's reply posts rather hilarious! In Evolvtopia you can barter if you wish but it has proven cumbersome at times and quite often winds up in court. The most widely used forms of barter in Evolvtopia are drugs, sex, electronics, foods, clothing. It is much easier to sell your goods at your local Evolvtopian Mercantile Exchange branch office for Tems or any other country's currency, just be prepared to fill out a Barter/ Currency Tracking Form so that you may be taxed properly. BlackMarket activity is forbidden and will result in Hard Labor in the Death Camps so please- fill out the BCTF and bring proper identification and prepare to be fingerprinted and photographed. We are open to any suggestions that may help our nation improve as a whole and for each and every citizen of Evolvtopia regarding this matter or any other. Thank you kindly!

[Lackadaisical2]

We here at Evolvtopia find this particular forum and all it's reply posts rather hilarious! In Evolvtopia you can barter if you wish but it has proven cumbersome at times and quite often winds up in court. The most widely used forms of barter in Evolvtopia are drugs, sex, electronics, foods, clothing. It is much easier to sell your goods at your local Evolvtopian Mercantile Exchange branch office for Tems or any other country's currency, just be prepared to fill out a Barter/ Currency Tracking Form so that you may be taxed properly. BlackMarket activity is forbidden and will result in Hard Labor in the Death Camps so please- fill out the BCTF and bring proper identification and prepare to be fingerprinted and photographed. We are open to any suggestions that may help our nation improve as a whole and for each and every citizen of Evolvtopia regarding this matter or any other. Thank you kindly!

I already told you, this forum isn't for In Character responses. Nothing game related belongs here. Try another subforum.

[Ashmoria]

so it doesnt matter to you that you wont GET coffee (since you live in canada which is far from coffee growing areas) as long as bankers dont get to skim?

that seems silly to me.

I think you are missing the point entirely. Let me try again.
Dollar bills are widely accepted as being a good currency, because they are easy to carry in your pocket, easy to produce, etc.. I am not arguing against their utility in that regard.
However, in our current system, the power to expand or contract the monetary supply is controlled by private corporations (called banks). This is of course a simplification, but generally holds true. Money is created as loans, at interest. Therefore, essentially every dollar bill that you and everyone else has in their pocket is earning interest for banks. If you are interested in learning more about this, read 'Web of Debt'.
Thus, the economy is constantly being skimmed by what I view as parasites, otherwise known as bankers.
Soooooooooo, I would prefer to use coffee, or any other type of currency, if I could eliminate that whole phenomenon.
Now are you going to ask me if I would rather use Folgers or Maxwell House???

yeah i got that

without the banks and money you would never have coffee, cars, tvs, computers, etc.

i would ask you how much you like your face now that you have no nose.

[Partybus]

Anyone who has ever hitchhiked when it was still fun, and somewhat safe, might recall this bumper sticker;

ASS GAS or GRASS
NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE

That is bartering...

[Hydesland]

Barter is hopelessly less efficient for obvious reasons, I don't think anyone who has ever thought about it for more than a second could argue otherwise.

[Conservative-Values]

Connection to gold in the late 1920s created an inability to effectively control the money supply and prevent deflation which was help partly responsible for the deepening of the depression during the early 1930s.

[Free Soviets]

Barter is hopelessly less efficient for obvious reasons, I don't think anyone who has ever thought about it for more than a second could argue otherwise.

what i've always found baffling is that in so far as there are advocates for largely barter-based systems, they tend to be coming from some sort of leftist perspective. hippies and the like, basically. but I just don't see how it is even supposed to help achieve leftist ends.

[Bendira]

Barter is hopelessly less efficient for obvious reasons, I don't think anyone who has ever thought about it for more than a second could argue otherwise.

what i've always found baffling is that in so far as there are advocates for largely barter-based systems, they tend to be coming from some sort of leftist perspective. hippies and the like, basically. but I just don't see how it is even supposed to help achieve leftist ends.

They are mutualists that don't know mutualism exists.

[Mercator Terra]

what i've always found baffling is that in so far as there are advocates for largely barter-based systems, they tend to be coming from some sort of leftist perspective. hippies and the like, basically. but I just don't see how it is even supposed to help achieve leftist ends.

They are mutualists that don't know mutualism exists.

Mutualist money = labor scrips...

echk!

[Bendira]

They are mutualists that don't know mutualism exists.

Mutualist money = labor scrips...

echk!

Haha, they remind me of like, the NWO "libertarians". They are like, people interested in politics but not really all that smart or interested in researching things. So instead of looking into other economic schools for an answer to the business cycle, they blame it on the Illuminati stealing money.

[Mercator Terra]

Mutualist money = labor scrips...

echk!

Haha, they remind me of like, the NWO "libertarians". They are like, people interested in politics but not really all that smart or interested in researching things. So instead of looking into other economic schools for an answer to the business cycle, they blame it on the Illuminati stealing money.

Lol I always think that to. I have nothing against mutualists I think its great social anarchists are reaching over to laissez faire, free markets, etc but economically I think it is not is "ideal" per-say as regular capitalism. Non the less I dont think they are that far off other forms of anarchism is much much worse.

[Bendira]

Haha, they remind me of like, the NWO "libertarians". They are like, people interested in politics but not really all that smart or interested in researching things. So instead of looking into other economic schools for an answer to the business cycle, they blame it on the Illuminati stealing money.

Lol I always think that to. I have nothing against mutualists I think its great social anarchists are reaching over to laissez faire, free markets, etc but economically I think it is not is "ideal" per-say as regular capitalism. Non the less I dont think they are that far off other forms of anarchism is much much worse.

Hah I meant "barterers", I consider mutualists allies and intellectuals.

[Mercator Terra]

Lol I always think that to. I have nothing against mutualists I think its great social anarchists are reaching over to laissez faire, free markets, etc but economically I think it is not is "ideal" per-say as regular capitalism. Non the less I dont think they are that far off other forms of anarchism is much much worse.

Hah I meant "barterers", I consider mutualists allies and intellectuals.

"barterers" I cant even understand their logic....

[Grenartia]

How does an employee for a large company accurately determine a barter value for the companies products that their employers would find acceptable.

How do they do it with money?

[Bendira]

Hah I meant "barterers", I consider mutualists allies and intellectuals.

"barterers" I cant even understand their logic....

My whole motto is that idc what type of anarchist you are, as long as you help smash the state. I think capitalism will emerge to matter who leads the way.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

I think you are missing the point entirely. Let me try again.
Dollar bills are widely accepted as being a good currency, because they are easy to carry in your pocket, easy to produce, etc.. I am not arguing against their utility in that regard.
However, in our current system, the power to expand or contract the monetary supply is controlled by private corporations (called banks). This is of course a simplification, but generally holds true. Money is created as loans, at interest. Therefore, essentially every dollar bill that you and everyone else has in their pocket is earning interest for banks. If you are interested in learning more about this, read 'Web of Debt'.
Thus, the economy is constantly being skimmed by what I view as parasites, otherwise known as bankers.
Soooooooooo, I would prefer to use coffee, or any other type of currency, if I could eliminate that whole phenomenon.
Now are you going to ask me if I would rather use Folgers or Maxwell House???

yeah i got that

without the banks and money you would never have coffee, cars, tvs, computers, etc.

i would ask you how much you like your face now that you have no nose.

So without money I guess I'd have no nose either?
Money doesn't create anything, including cars coffee or computers. Labour, resources and technology create those things.
I'm sure you can't wait to tell me why we can't utilize those things without money!

[Conservative-Values]

yeah i got that

without the banks and money you would never have coffee, cars, tvs, computers, etc.

i would ask you how much you like your face now that you have no nose.

So without money I guess I'd have no nose either?
Money doesn't create anything, including cars coffee or computers. Labour, resources and technology create those things.
I'm sure you can't wait to tell me why we can't utilize those things without money!

Without a credit market and money, developing products would be extremely difficult. We would have likely never seen much of the innovation of today without credit markets. Actually, the emergence of innovation came during the Renaissance when Jewish bankers began creating the first credit markets, thereby allowing for the beautiful architecture and artwork during the period. It was also an important part of the industrial revolution.

Businesses today primarily make money by being innovative and creating new products. In order to afford costs they borrow money in hopes to receive a higher return by investing in their companies.

Most start-up companies begin by borrowing money to afford the costs of creating businesses. Money, credit, and banks are of the utmost importance in our economy.

[Meryuma]

Money has a fixed value

It doesn't. Ever heard of inflation?

In fact, do to the nature of economic value itself, nothing has a fixed value.

[Ashmoria]

yeah i got that

without the banks and money you would never have coffee, cars, tvs, computers, etc.

i would ask you how much you like your face now that you have no nose.

So without money I guess I'd have no nose either?
Money doesn't create anything, including cars coffee or computers. Labour, resources and technology create those things.
I'm sure you can't wait to tell me why we can't utilize those things without money!

how are you going to barter with the thousands of workers who made your car?

how are you going to barter with the dozens who work at the dealership?

how are you going to get a "goat loan" to cover the 500 goats you are going to need to pay for your car?

you seem to have an irrational dislike of the bankers who make your lifestyle possible.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

So without money I guess I'd have no nose either?
Money doesn't create anything, including cars coffee or computers. Labour, resources and technology create those things.
I'm sure you can't wait to tell me why we can't utilize those things without money!

Without a credit market and money, developing products would be extremely difficult. We would have likely never seen much of the innovation of today without credit markets. Actually, the emergence of innovation came during the Renaissance when Jewish bankers began creating the first credit markets, thereby allowing for the beautiful architecture and artwork during the period. It was also an important part of the industrial revolution.

Businesses today primarily make money by being innovative and creating new products. In order to afford costs they borrow money in hopes to receive a higher return by investing in their companies.

Most start-up companies begin by borrowing money to afford the costs of creating businesses. Money, credit, and banks are of the utmost importance in our economy.

Your arguments about credit for business may be true, I'm not sure, but that doesn't mean that banks should be allowed to create money at interest. If businesses need money to develop products as you argue, why should banks profit when all they are doing is running a printing press?
If the money the banks were lending actually had value, then it would be valid for them to lend it at interest. But with fractional reserve banking, and allowing the creation of money based on government bonds, the banks earn interest on fancy printed paper, nothing more.

[Mercator Terra]

Money has a fixed value

It doesn't. Ever heard of inflation?

In fact, do to the nature of economic value itself, nothing has a fixed value.

Not to mention value is subjective.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

So without money I guess I'd have no nose either?
Money doesn't create anything, including cars coffee or computers. Labour, resources and technology create those things.
I'm sure you can't wait to tell me why we can't utilize those things without money!

how are you going to barter with the thousands of workers who made your car?

how are you going to barter with the dozens who work at the dealership?

how are you going to get a "goat loan" to cover the 500 goats you are going to need to pay for your car?

you seem to have an irrational dislike of the bankers who make your lifestyle possible.

Wow, I wish you would actually read my posts.
I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.

[Conservative-Values]

Without a credit market and money, developing products would be extremely difficult. We would have likely never seen much of the innovation of today without credit markets. Actually, the emergence of innovation came during the Renaissance when Jewish bankers began creating the first credit markets, thereby allowing for the beautiful architecture and artwork during the period. It was also an important part of the industrial revolution.

Businesses today primarily make money by being innovative and creating new products. In order to afford costs they borrow money in hopes to receive a higher return by investing in their companies.

Most start-up companies begin by borrowing money to afford the costs of creating businesses. Money, credit, and banks are of the utmost importance in our economy.

Your arguments about credit for business may be true, I'm not sure, but that doesn't mean that banks should be allowed to create money at interest. If businesses need money to develop products as you argue, why should banks profit when all they are doing is running a printing press?
If the money the banks were lending actually had value, then it would be valid for them to lend it at interest. But with fractional reserve banking, and allowing the creation of money based on government bonds, the banks earn interest on fancy printed paper, nothing more.

Why would anyone loan money if they couldn't make a profit? They serve a worthy purpose: capital formulation.

[Dypsomaniacs]

I'm not arguing that a barter system is better than money, except that if we were on a barter system we wouldn't have to pay interest on money that is created out of nothing.
And if you think that bankers 'make' your lifestyle possible, you are sadly mistaken. These bankers you seem to have an irrational love for skim billions off the top year after year. No matter how bad the economy is for the average person, bankers prosper. In fact, they do better in economic downturns. If it weren't for these lovable bankers, we all would have a much higher standard of living, and we would live in a much more equal society. They are the parasites of society.