Flaws in a barter society

[Ashmoria]

it doesnt work in a complex society

how many onions and chickens do i have to bring my doctor in order to get my gall bladder out?

Your health insurance should cover that. A better question is how many goats and potatoes a year does this health insurance cost and will they accept onions and chickens instead.

maybe i can mow the CEO's lawn once a week....

[Soviet Haaregrad]

Your health insurance should cover that. A better question is how many goats and potatoes a year does this health insurance cost and will they accept onions and chickens instead.

maybe i can mow the CEO's lawn once a week....

It will cut down on illegal immigration from Mexico.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

Okay, not what I meant. You can argue all day long about how much $20 dollars is "worth," but ultimately you have a value set in your head of what $20 can reasonably buy. At least I do.

That expectation only exists because we have a stable monetary system. If you go Zimbabwe or something then who knows how much an xbox should cost.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that have no fucking idea how much a cow is worth.

Thats only because you didn't grow up with cows as part of a barter system.

EXACTLY. Goats and sheep or coffee, or even sticks (look up 'tally sticks') would work just fine. Just because you are familiar with money (dollar bills that is) doesn't mean it is the best system. In fact, it is more likely it is flawed if the powers that be, in an unequal society, want to keep it in place. Remember, we live in an unequal society (few haves and MANY have nots), and it got that way somehow. I would argue that the current monetary system is a big part of that.

[Ashmoria]

That expectation only exists because we have a stable monetary system. If you go Zimbabwe or something then who knows how much an xbox should cost.


Thats only because you didn't grow up with cows as part of a barter system.

EXACTLY. Goats and sheep or coffee, or even sticks (look up 'tally sticks') would work just fine. Just because you are familiar with money (dollar bills that is) doesn't mean it is the best system. In fact, it is more likely it is flawed if the powers that be, in an unequal society, want to keep it in place. Remember, we live in an unequal society (few haves and MANY have nots), and it got that way somehow. I would argue that the current monetary system is a big part of that.

how much coffee do you want to lug around so you can pay your bills?

[Canadian Intellectuals]

EXACTLY. Goats and sheep or coffee, or even sticks (look up 'tally sticks') would work just fine. Just because you are familiar with money (dollar bills that is) doesn't mean it is the best system. In fact, it is more likely it is flawed if the powers that be, in an unequal society, want to keep it in place. Remember, we live in an unequal society (few haves and MANY have nots), and it got that way somehow. I would argue that the current monetary system is a big part of that.

how much coffee do you want to lug around so you can pay your bills?

I'd rather lug around coffee in a society where bankers didn't get to constantly skim off a percentage of EVERYTHING.
I'm not saying coffee is an ideal currency. I am trying to say that the current monetary system is messed up, in favour of those at the top. And if the solution to cut the parasites out is to start lugging around coffee, I'd be willing to do it!

[Ashmoria]

how much coffee do you want to lug around so you can pay your bills?

I'd rather lug around coffee in a society where bankers didn't get to constantly skim off a percentage of EVERYTHING.
I'm not saying coffee is an ideal currency. I am trying to say that the current monetary system is messed up, in favour of those at the top. And if the solution to cut the parasites out is to start lugging around coffee, I'd be willing to do it!

so it doesnt matter to you that you wont GET coffee (since you live in canada which is far from coffee growing areas) as long as bankers dont get to skim?

that seems silly to me.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

I'd rather lug around coffee in a society where bankers didn't get to constantly skim off a percentage of EVERYTHING.
I'm not saying coffee is an ideal currency. I am trying to say that the current monetary system is messed up, in favour of those at the top. And if the solution to cut the parasites out is to start lugging around coffee, I'd be willing to do it!

so it doesnt matter to you that you wont GET coffee (since you live in canada which is far from coffee growing areas) as long as bankers dont get to skim?

that seems silly to me.

I think you are missing the point entirely. Let me try again.
Dollar bills are widely accepted as being a good currency, because they are easy to carry in your pocket, easy to produce, etc.. I am not arguing against their utility in that regard.
However, in our current system, the power to expand or contract the monetary supply is controlled by private corporations (called banks). This is of course a simplification, but generally holds true. Money is created as loans, at interest. Therefore, essentially every dollar bill that you and everyone else has in their pocket is earning interest for banks. If you are interested in learning more about this, read 'Web of Debt'.
Thus, the economy is constantly being skimmed by what I view as parasites, otherwise known as bankers.
Soooooooooo, I would prefer to use coffee, or any other type of currency, if I could eliminate that whole phenomenon.
Now are you going to ask me if I would rather use Folgers or Maxwell House???

[Bendira]

Money is just a good that is demanded, can be broken down into smaller units, and is durable. All it does is fix the asymmetry of trade that would exist in a purely barter economy. How is that bad?

[Free Soviets]

i honestly have never really understood the appeal of barter has for some people. its got all the same issues as regular market exchange for everything + is ridiculously inefficient. also, ridiculous, full stop. what are these alleged problems that money-based exchange has that barter doesn't?

if you want to avoid market exchanges, then what you want is a gift economy of one sort or another.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

Money is just a good that is demanded, can be broken down into smaller units, and is durable. All it does is fix the asymmetry of trade that would exist in a purely barter economy. How is that bad?

How does money get created? How does the creation of money affect the buying power of the current money in the system? How does money get removed from the system? What is the effect of contraction of the money system?
The answers to these questions will answer your question.

[Dypsomaniacs]

All I have to sy on this topic is -

any system that allows people to work two or more full time jobs so that they can remain below the poverty level is seriously corrupt.,,

In any financial system it seems that everyone would benefit from ensuring that anyone who worked did not have to go without the basic necessities for survival...

Our current system fails miserably...

[Bendira]

Money is just a good that is demanded, can be broken down into smaller units, and is durable. All it does is fix the asymmetry of trade that would exist in a purely barter economy. How is that bad?

How does money get created? How does the creation of money affect the buying power of the current money in the system? How does money get removed from the system? What is the effect of contraction of the money system?
The answers to these questions will answer your question.

Money gets created by the free market in response to the asymmetry of trade that exists in a barter system. The problem occurs when governments print fiat currency and introduce centralized banking. You don't have a problem with money, you have a problem with fractional reserve banking and fiat currency. Id re-evaluate my position if I were you, and perhaps read this:

http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp

[Free Soviets]

The problem occurs when governments print fiat currency and introduce centralized banking.

except, of course, that the evidence says those things work better than the alternatives...

[Dypsomaniacs]

The problem occurs when governments print fiat currency and introduce centralized banking.

except, of course, that the evidence says those things work better than the alternatives...

Yeah - unemployment, homelessness, hunger, drug addiction, overpoulated prisons - Those things are working so well... Look at the evidence.

[Free Soviets]

except, of course, that the evidence says those things work better than the alternatives...

Yeah - unemployment, homelessness, hunger, drug addiction, overpoulated prisons - Those things are working so well... Look at the evidence.

how are any of those caused by (or made worse by) fiat currency versus, say, gold?

[Lackadaisical2]

That expectation only exists because we have a stable monetary system. If you go Zimbabwe or something then who knows how much an xbox should cost.


Thats only because you didn't grow up with cows as part of a barter system.

EXACTLY. Goats and sheep or coffee, or even sticks (look up 'tally sticks') would work just fine. Just because you are familiar with money (dollar bills that is) doesn't mean it is the best system. In fact, it is more likely it is flawed if the powers that be, in an unequal society, want to keep it in place. Remember, we live in an unequal society (few haves and MANY have nots), and it got that way somehow. I would argue that the current monetary system is a big part of that.

I wasn't saying that barter is better than monetary, I just don't think theres any need to pile on more things against Barter systems when they already suck so much.

[Rolamec]

Oh sure, and why don't we move into the forests next, go nude, have sex with trees, procreate with the local animals, smoke pot, and burn an effigy to our pagan deities?

[Lackadaisical2]

except, of course, that the evidence says those things work better than the alternatives...

Yeah - unemployment, homelessness, hunger, drug addiction, overpoulated prisons - Those things are working so well... Look at the evidence.

Every society has problems, listing them doesn't discredit one tiny portion of the society (in this case money).

[Georgism]

Oh sure, and why don't we move into the forests next, go nude, have sex with trees, procreate with the local animals, smoke pot, and burn an effigy to our pagan deities?

Because smoking pot is bad for your health.

[Free Soviets]

Oh sure, and why don't we move into the forests next, go nude, have sex with trees, procreate with the local animals, smoke pot, and burn an effigy to our pagan deities?

because its cold out there and splinters are no fun, that's why.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

Oh sure, and why don't we move into the forests next, go nude, have sex with trees, procreate with the local animals, smoke pot, and burn an effigy to our pagan deities?

I for one support this proposition.

[Canadian Intellectuals]

How does money get created? How does the creation of money affect the buying power of the current money in the system? How does money get removed from the system? What is the effect of contraction of the money system?
The answers to these questions will answer your question.

Money gets created by the free market in response to the asymmetry of trade that exists in a barter system. The problem occurs when governments print fiat currency and introduce centralized banking. You don't have a problem with money, you have a problem with fractional reserve banking and fiat currency. Id re-evaluate my position if I were you, and perhaps read this:

http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp

If you read my posts, that is essentially what I am saying. But to clarify, fiat currency isn't the problem, it's the fact that private corporations hold the power to create and contract the currency that is the problem. Money does not get created by the free market. Money gets created by private corporations (banks).
It doesn't matter how you frame your arguments, all money is created at profit for the banks. Thus banks make record profits every year, and more and more regular people suffer hardships. Your free market arguments don't change that fact one iota.

[Cosmopoles]

I think you are missing the point entirely. Let me try again.
Dollar bills are widely accepted as being a good currency, because they are easy to carry in your pocket, easy to produce, etc.. I am not arguing against their utility in that regard.
However, in our current system, the power to expand or contract the monetary supply is controlled by private corporations (called banks). This is of course a simplification, but generally holds true. Money is created as loans, at interest. Therefore, essentially every dollar bill that you and everyone else has in their pocket is earning interest for banks. If you are interested in learning more about this, read 'Web of Debt'.
Thus, the economy is constantly being skimmed by what I view as parasites, otherwise known as bankers.
Soooooooooo, I would prefer to use coffee, or any other type of currency, if I could eliminate that whole phenomenon.
Now are you going to ask me if I would rather use Folgers or Maxwell House???

What makes you thin banks wouldn't exist in a barter system? If anything, the inefficiencies of batrer trade would make banks even more useful. It would provide you with a secure place for your produce, a portion of which the bank could loan out and for which you receive interest. You could deposit in one medium of exchange and withdraw in a different medium that may be more useful to you.

[Mercator Terra]

Real money is just another good people use instead of carrying around 2 cows and a goat.

[Bendira]

Real money is just another good people use instead of carrying around 2 cows and a goat.

QFT