Flaws in a barter society

[Wamitoria]

Isn't barter society flawed at its core?

[Dypsomaniacs]

What category?

The US Census Bureau's poverty level.
Sorry... Had to edit out some of what I had originally wanted to have in that response, didn't want to offer too much for the nit pickers to pick at. Forgot to change the wording of what was left.

[Caninope]

What category?

The US Census Bureau's poverty level.
Sorry... Had to edit out some of what I had originally wanted to have in that response, didn't want to offer too much for the nit pickers to pick at. Forgot to change the wording of what was left.

I doubt there are 303 million Americans below the poverty line.

[Dypsomaniacs]

I doubt there are 303 million Americans below the poverty line.

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

Possibly you are confused by population numbers that only account for adults with US citizenship - while we all know that there are many more people than that living and working in the United States... Even using this number, the number of persons living below poverty was estimated to be 40 some million in 2009...
I believe the census bureau number takes into consideration every human living in the US - children and non-americans...

[Conservative-Values]

I doubt there are 303 million Americans below the poverty line.

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

That doesn't make any sense. There are only 307 million Americans -- 40% of that is 122.8 million.... something doesn't add up.

[Caninope]

I doubt there are 303 million Americans below the poverty line.

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

Because poverty is generally determined based on annual income. Most people won't have a high annual income when they're retired or a student.

[Dypsomaniacs]

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

That doesn't make any sense. There are only 307 million Americans -- 40% of that is 122.8 million.... something doesn't add up.

Possibly you are confused by population numbers that only account for adults with US citizenship - while we all know that there are many more people than that living and working in the United States... Even using this number, the number of persons living below poverty was estimated to be 40 some million in 2009...
I believe the census bureau number takes into consideration every human living in the US - children and non-americans...

[Dypsomaniacs]

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

Because poverty is generally determined based on annual income. Most people won't have a high annual income when they're retired or a student.

Well those are good reasons to have to go without the basic essentials of life...

[Caninope]

That doesn't make any sense. There are only 307 million Americans -- 40% of that is 122.8 million.... something doesn't add up.

Possibly you are confused by population numbers that only account for adults with US citizenship - while we all know that there are many more people than that living and working in the United States... Even using this number, the number of persons living below poverty was estimated to be 40 some million in 2009...
I believe the census bureau number takes into consideration every human living in the US - children and non-americans...

There are only 310 Million People in the US. And a poverty rate that's below 15% is pretty good, considering the quality of life for the poor in America.

[Dypsomaniacs]

Possibly you are confused by population numbers that only account for adults with US citizenship - while we all know that there are many more people than that living and working in the United States... Even using this number, the number of persons living below poverty was estimated to be 40 some million in 2009...
I believe the census bureau number takes into consideration every human living in the US - children and non-americans...

There are only 310 Million People in the US. And a poverty rate that's below 15% is pretty good, considering the quality of life for the poor in America.

There is only an estimated 310 million adults living in the U.S. Any poverty is unacceptable... Having been poor, I know that there is little quality of life in being poor...

[Caninope]

There are only 310 Million People in the US. And a poverty rate that's below 15% is pretty good, considering the quality of life for the poor in America.

There is only an estimated 310 million adults living in the U.S. Any poverty is unacceptable... Having been poor, I know that there is little quality of life in being poor...

There is a population of 310 million in the US. Furthermore, the quality of life in being poor in America is fantastic, on an absolute scale, better than the lives of rich/middle class people in many other countries.

EDIT: There will always be a poverty, at least on a relative scale.

[Natapoc]

There is only an estimated 310 million adults living in the U.S. Any poverty is unacceptable... Having been poor, I know that there is little quality of life in being poor...

[url-http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html]There is a population of 310 million in the US.[/url] Furthermore, the quality of life in being poor in America is fantastic, on an absolute scale, better than the lives of rich/middle class people in many other countries.

Perhaps better then the life of the middle class in the worlds most impoverished countries but not better then the rich in any country and not better then the middle class of most countries.

[Caninope]

[url-http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html]There is a population of 310 million in the US.[/url] Furthermore, the quality of life in being poor in America is fantastic, on an absolute scale, better than the lives of rich/middle class people in many other countries.

Perhaps better then the life of the middle class in the worlds most impoverished countries but not better then the rich in any country and not better then the middle class of most countries.

The poor currently has a better life than any class in most African and Latin American countries (excluding the ultra-rich here), than the middle class in many Asian countries, and some Eastern European countries.

[Ashmoria]

The US Census bureau has lots of numbers you probably won't agree with...
You might not believe that they estimate 40% of all americans WILL fall below the poverty level at least one year in their lifetimes...

That doesn't make any sense. There are only 307 million Americans -- 40% of that is 122.8 million.... something doesn't add up.

of course it makes sense.

the children of very young parents tend to be in poverty, for example.

its only ONE YEAR in a life of 80 years.

[Natapoc]

Perhaps better then the life of the middle class in the worlds most impoverished countries but not better then the rich in any country and not better then the middle class of most countries.

The poor currently has a better life than any class in most African and Latin American countries (excluding the ultra-rich here), than the middle class in many Asian countries, and some Eastern European countries.

That's totally false. You'll need to prove this. I say this because I have personally spoken with millionaires from various African countries. The rich in many African countries have multiple servants, luxuries the middle class of the US cannot dream of, ect.

edit: Okay I'll start with a source: African millionaires:

There are over 83,000 millionaires (in US dollars) in Africa

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080480/

In most African countries a million can buy you far more then what it can buy you in the US.

[Caninope]

The poor currently has a better life than any class in most African and Latin American countries (excluding the ultra-rich here), than the middle class in many Asian countries, and some Eastern European countries.

That's totally false. You'll need to prove this. I say this because I have personally spoken with millionaires from various African countries. The rich in many African countries have multiple servants, luxuries the middle class of the US cannot dream of, ect.

edit: Okay I'll start with a source: African millionaires:

There are over 83,000 millionaires (in US dollars) in Africa

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080480/

In most African countries a million can buy you far more then what it can buy you in the US.

In Africa, someone making 30k a year (in US dollars) might be considered rich, so those African millionaires would fall into the "ultra-rich"

[Natapoc]

That's totally false. You'll need to prove this. I say this because I have personally spoken with millionaires from various African countries. The rich in many African countries have multiple servants, luxuries the middle class of the US cannot dream of, ect.

edit: Okay I'll start with a source: African millionaires:

There are over 83,000 millionaires (in US dollars) in Africa

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080480/

In most African countries a million can buy you far more then what it can buy you in the US.

In Africa, someone making 30k a year (in US dollars) might be considered rich, so those African millionaires would fall into the "ultra-rich"

Oh right... So now you want to change what "rich" means depending on the country to try to dishonestly be correct in your own mind. At any rate, even then the data shows you to be incorrect. Consider that The average high school teacher in south africa makes: 48,181.36 USD per year (338,243 ZAR). http://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Cou ... ica/Salary

[Sibirsky]

That's interesting because I am far from the one with the most money yet I am well fed and clothed, decently housed etc.

In short, you analysis is dead wrong.

Yes, but a starving child has more need for food than a millionaire in an MEDC but the food goes to the millionaire because he can afford it.

A cancer patient needs medicine more than a rich man with a less severe illness (I know they both won't need the same medicine but the analogy still stands) but it will go to the rich man because he has more money.

And on another note, if someone is wrong you should tell them properly, not be so big-headed as to say flat out "you're wrong".

And the free market is better able to allocate resources. Food, housing, clothing was cheaper in the Soviet Union. Yet Americans were better housed, clothed and fed.

[Caninope]

In Africa, someone making 30k a year (in US dollars) might be considered rich, so those African millionaires would fall into the "ultra-rich"

Oh right... So now you want to change what "rich" means depending on the country to try to dishonestly be correct in your own mind. At any rate, even then the data shows you to be incorrect. Consider that The average high school teacher in south africa makes: 48,181.36 USD per year (338,243 ZAR). http://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Cou ... ica/Salary

The wealth that the "rich" own in US dollars will vary per country, because some countries are poorer than others. Nothing dishonest about that at all, Natapoc.

South Africa is also one of the more developed and stable countries in Africa.

[Sibirsky]

Sibirsky -

Census numbers are interesting things...
These are pre tax numbers that don't really mean to much - Below is what census.gov says about the US Census numbers...

Still - They estimate that 303,820,000 in the US fall into that category... Now that is no small number.

What category?

That looks like the number of people, several years ago. Yep. There are a lot of people in the US. I never said otherwise.

[Sibirsky]

What category?

The US Census Bureau's poverty level.
Sorry... Had to edit out some of what I had originally wanted to have in that response, didn't want to offer too much for the nit pickers to pick at. Forgot to change the wording of what was left.

You are unbelievably wrong.

[Sibirsky]

[url-http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html]There is a population of 310 million in the US.[/url] Furthermore, the quality of life in being poor in America is fantastic, on an absolute scale, better than the lives of rich/middle class people in many other countries.

Perhaps better then the life of the middle class in the worlds most impoverished countries but not better then the rich in any country and not better then the middle class of most countries.

Better than middle class of most countries.

[Sibirsky]

The US 4 person poverty line is higher than the GDP/capita (PPP) of 148 nations. Therefore, the American poor are better of than most of the world's middle classes.

[Mercator Terra]

The US 4 person poverty line is higher than the GDP/capita (PPP) of 148 nations. Therefore, the American poor are better of than most of the world's middle classes.

But is obviously has no correlation with the free market.

[Big Jim P]

The US 4 person poverty line is higher than the GDP/capita (PPP) of 148 nations. Therefore, the American poor are better of than most of the world's middle classes.

Your point? America is a wealthier nation.