Flaws in a barter society

[Ashmoria]

As far as your claim that Ashmoria has an "irrational love of bankers" first, I'll disclose an assumption. Ashmoria is not a fat cat capitalist.

Now, what she has actually show is a rational understanding that without banks, and the credit they provide her college degree, house, car, college degrees for her kids, etc. would all be unattainable toys for the rich.

back when i had a house mortgage it would amaze me that people were resentful of having to make their monthly payments. i was extremely happy that i had a house and all i had to do was pay back the money a little at a time over a huge amount of time.

whats to complain about?

now TODAY i sympathize with people who got caught at the end of the housing bubble and those who were taken advantage of by unethical bankers. but that is a rare happening in the history of banking.

it certainly isnt a reason to end the banking system as we know it.

[Sibirsky]

I always find it amazing when people defend banks by saying they make our standard of living possible

You find it amazing when people defend banks by saying an objective fact, proven thousands of times empirically and theoretically?

[Sibirsky]

As far as your claim that Ashmoria has an "irrational love of bankers" first, I'll disclose an assumption. Ashmoria is not a fat cat capitalist.

Now, what she has actually show is a rational understanding that without banks, and the credit they provide her college degree, house, car, college degrees for her kids, etc. would all be unattainable toys for the rich.

back when i had a house mortgage it would amaze me that people were resentful of having to make their monthly payments. i was extremely happy that i had a house and all i had to do was pay back the money a little at a time over a huge amount of time.

whats to complain about?

now TODAY i sympathize with people who got caught at the end of the housing bubble and those who were taken advantage of by unethical bankers. but that is a rare happening in the history of banking.

it certainly isnt a reason to end the banking system as we know it.

A lot of people are in trouble due to no fault of their own (laid off perhaps) and are stuck with no easy way out (bought house in 2006 in San Diego for example, only job they can find is in Washington, DC). They want to sell the house in San Diego to move to DC for the job, but are upside down. It sucks. I sympathize with them as well.

It would take a median household more than 5 years of saving every penny, committing tax fraud, not eating, drinking or buying any clothes etc. to save up enough to buy the median house.

Or they can get an average mortgage and pay 25.2% of their gross income to live in the median house now.

[Georgism]

I think we should have a barter system where everybody trades things for money. I haven't thought of a name for it yet but when I do I'm going to write a book about it and try to get the world to follow my system.

You sound like the government.

You mean they read about my system on this forum and put it into practice behind my back? Without crediting me?

I'm outraged!

[Sibirsky]

You sound like the government.

You mean they read about my system on this forum and put it into practice behind my back? Without crediting me?

I'm outraged!

I mean a system arose then they mandated it and took credit for it's creation.

[Georgism]

You mean they read about my system on this forum and put it into practice behind my back? Without crediting me?

I'm outraged!

I mean a system arose then they mandated it and took credit for it's creation.

Bollocks. I wanted to do that!

Although I'm not sure using the central currency is mandated here in the UK. I mean we have things like the Brixton Pound and so on... Perhaps an economist could enlighten me?

[Tightfisted Monkeybots]

The thing with barter system is that it never could get global or work on a macro scale and the people that tend to support the system are fairly small-minded and slightly crazy anyway. Go freecycle!

[Natapoc]

The thing with barter system is that it never could get global or work on a macro scale and the people that tend to support the system are fairly small-minded and slightly crazy anyway. Go freecycle!

Small minded and slightly crazy? Do you realize that you've not presented ANY argument for or against a barter society?

You've simply stated that it "can't work on a global or macro scale" and that people who support it are "small minded and slightly crazy anyway."

Since most people here agree with you... You will normally be permitted to make such errors since generally people don't point out flaws in arguments of people who agree with them. But not today! Tightfisted Monkeybots, Your logic is flawed!

[Sibirsky]

I mean a system arose then they mandated it and took credit for it's creation.

Bollocks. I wanted to do that!

Although I'm not sure using the central currency is mandated here in the UK. I mean we have things like the Brixton Pound and so on... Perhaps an economist could enlighten me?

I assume UK laws are similar to US laws in this regard. Legal tender laws. So, in Brixton, where there are 80+ businesses that accept the Brixton Pound, if I walked in and tried to pay with the good old pound sterling, it would be illegal for them to refuse my currency.

[Georgism]

I assume UK laws are similar to US laws in this regard. Legal tender laws. So, in Brixton, where there are 80+ businesses that accept the Brixton Pound, if I walked in and tried to pay with the good old pound sterling, it would be illegal for them to refuse my currency.

Oh. Seems like a good thing to me.

[UCUMAY]

I love you

Watch out for Meiko

[Meryuma]

Well, as someone on the left, I see abolishing currency in favor of a simpler system that is still capitalistic to be counter-productive.

Exchange isn't the same thing as capitalism. Capitalism is an economy based on the wage relation. Capital-ism, capital being privileged.

[Sociobiology]

the history of currency is always interesting, the earliest currency were stamped coins of gold and electrum, they were stamped to certify their purity, they were still only worth whatever they weighed not a set amount. but representational money predates even that, the ancient Egyptians used government issued ceramic tokens which you got for donating grain to the public storehouses, if your crops failed you could trade that token in at any time (even decades later) for measured amount of grain back from the store house. Of coarse people soon realized it was much easier to trade those token then haul the grain to barter. they also uses regulated weights and measures, a measure of beer or a loaf of bread was the same where ever you got it under penalty of law. this practice carried on through for several thousand years all over the world. in fact the first regulated measurements were for three diffrent things, a standard weight of copper, a standard volume of beer, and standard volume of grain and had a well established set value (1 to 1 for copper and beer and 2 of either for one unit of grain.
in fact wages were measured off a standard amount of bread and beer.
currency originated as standardized weights and measures. not the other way around.
in england it was the reason for the bakers dozen, it was easier and safer to give the customer an extra loaf rather than be accused of shorting them.

[Sociobiology]

not surprisingly one of the most stable commodities in existence is still grain, plain white flour has an amazingly stable price, and could be used to track inflation almost by itself.
I would argue if you wanted to tie the value of currency to anything a weight of flour would be one of the best options.

[Big Jim P]

The perks of living somewhere rural

Of course, with a monetary system the hot women have flocked to the city and the farmers are just left with sheep.

And the blessed peace of the barnyard.

[UCUMAY]

Of course, with a monetary system the hot women have flocked to the city and the farmers are just left with sheep.

And the blessed peace of the barnyard.

That could be read so wrongly....

[Big Jim P]

And the blessed peace of the barnyard.

That could be read so wrongly....

No! Really?

[Sociobiology]

Of course, with a monetary system the hot women have flocked to the city and the farmers are just left with sheep.

And the blessed peace of the barnyard.

no hot women have always gone to cities, but technology made it so farmers no longer saw being able to lift a full grown hog under each arm as attractive.

[Big Jim P]

And the blessed peace of the barnyard.

no hot women have always gone to cities, but technology made it so farmers no longer saw being able to lift a full grown hog under each arm as attractive.

A full grown hog under each arm?

[Dypsomaniacs]

Whenever the economy goes bad the banks do profit from hard working peoples losses. Maybe not every single last bank that has ever existed, but that is a ludicrous point to begin with...
Person A gets laid off, can't find work, misses a couple of house payments, bank repossess home, kicks person A along with family into streets.
At that point - whether the bank holds onto the property or sells it they have not lost any money, while person A is out years of mortgage payments and homeless.
If they hold onto the property and wait for prices to rise - Well, they make a tidy profit for ruining a families lives...

The scary part of this is that the people that own the big banks also have a major role in creating the economic collapse that put person A out on the streets in the first place...

Money is only as valuable as we choose to make it -
If someone were to create an item that everyone had to have, but they only accepted live cows for payment - Your money would be basically worthless in obtaining that item...

By the way - How can anyone think it is a good thing when the American people (Uncle Sam) have to bail out the same banks that help to create the problem in the first place?

Foreclosure costs money. Lots of money. The value of the house declines. The bank losses money on foreclosures. Banks do not hold property waiting for prices to rise, they are not landlords or property managers.

I could still use money to buy cows.

I agree completely that home foreclosures cost lots of money - Anyone who has ever lost their home would not argue that point. In any foreclosure banks profit while those losing their homes pay the costs... Sometimes for years...

Those poor poverty stricken bankers -
Brian Moynihan CEO of Bank of America gets $950,000 per year base salary...
Lloyd Blankfein Goldman CEO gets base pay of $2,000,000...
Salary Caps - Obama's salary cap aimed at CEO's of those banks that we the tax payers bail out set a $500,000 limit on annual salaries...

Yeah - you people might have a point - The bank system seems to be working really well...

[Meikoland]

I love you

Watch out for Meiko

please don't abreviate, it's less intimidating that way

[Caninope]

Foreclosure costs money. Lots of money. The value of the house declines. The bank losses money on foreclosures. Banks do not hold property waiting for prices to rise, they are not landlords or property managers.

Ninja'd.

[Caninope]

Foreclosure costs money. Lots of money. The value of the house declines. The bank losses money on foreclosures. Banks do not hold property waiting for prices to rise, they are not landlords or property managers.

I could still use money to buy cows.

I agree completely that home foreclosures cost lots of money - Anyone who has ever lost their home would not argue that point. In any foreclosure banks profit while those losing their homes pay the costs... Sometimes for years...

Those poor poverty stricken bankers -
Brian Moynihan CEO of Bank of America gets $950,000 per year base salary...
Lloyd Blankfein Goldman CEO gets base pay of $2,000,000...
Salary Caps - Obama's salary cap aimed at CEO's of those banks that we the tax payers bail out set a $500,000 limit on annual salaries...

Yeah - you people might have a point - The bank system seems to be working really well...

You're problem isn't with bankers then, it's mad at executives who are making more than you.

[Dypsomaniacs]

Whenever the economy goes bad the banks do profit from hard working peoples losses. Maybe not every single last bank that has ever existed, but that is a ludicrous point to begin with...
Person A gets laid off, can't find work, misses a couple of house payments, bank repossess home, kicks person A along with family into streets.
At that point - whether the bank holds onto the property or sells it they have not lost any money, while person A is out years of mortgage payments and homeless.
If they hold onto the property and wait for prices to rise - Well, they make a tidy profit for ruining a families lives...

The scary part of this is that the people that own the big banks also have a major role in creating the economic collapse that put person A out on the streets in the first place...

Money is only as valuable as we choose to make it -
If someone were to create an item that everyone had to have, but they only accepted live cows for payment - Your money would be basically worthless in obtaining that item...

By the way - How can anyone think it is a good thing when the American people (Uncle Sam) have to bail out the same banks that help to create the problem in the first place?

Foreclosure costs money. Lots of money. The value of the house declines. The bank losses money on foreclosures. Banks do not hold property waiting for prices to rise, they are not landlords or property managers.

I could still use money to buy cows.

PART 2 - (Sorry had to run)

The majority of people who are making mortgage payments are paying money to a bank - Because the bank owns the property... Surprise!

Years ago I was offered a job from a bank to do repairs on the properties they owned. I turned them down after finding out that I would need a sheriff to escort me to some properties where I would need to throw families personal property into dumpsters...

The property I currently rent is owned by a bank. I make my rent payments to the bank - Because they own the property... Surprise!

Foreclosure does not necessarily cause a houses value to decline. The house is usually sold at a price that covers what is owed on the property, the value of the property is not affected. Still, the bank grants the new owner a new mortgage - They still make money.

While the banks are not the actual landlord or property managers, some banks do actually have departments within their organizations that do handle those details...

[Sociobiology]

no hot women have always gone to cities, but technology made it so farmers no longer saw being able to lift a full grown hog under each arm as attractive.

A full grown hog under each arm?

we have been breeding hogs for size so using the modern breeds it would be an exaggeration.
the ones back then would have been much smaller. the French truffle hogs are closer to the right size.