Exactly how ****ed is Detroit?

[Sibirsky]

I may not know about how bad it is for the population or the state of it's services... But seeing photos of parts of the city, you'd think it was Pripyat.

The cause is different, but the effect is the same. Abandonment.

New York is a great city. None of my complaints with it have anything to do with crime.

I've been there... I don't know, probably a dozen times. From a couple of days to a week or so at a time.

The first time I was there (I was 10 years old), this guy walks up to me holding a bunch of cash out. I'm like
He says, "be careful with your money young man. I took this out of your pocket." I checked, and indeed the money was mine. Didn't feel a thing.

Come to New York, our pickpockets have standards.

Well he returned the money, so I would not call him a pickpocket. A good Samaritan attempting to prevent me from being a victim of pickpockets.

[Sibirsky]

Damn are you serious? That's worse then I thought...

Yeah. On the plus side though only once was at knife point, which is probably better than you can expect just up the Uxbridge Road towards Hayes Town (not that you'd know where I'm talking about ).

London sounds worse than DC now. At least in DC most of that shit is contained to like 1/4 of the city. Just avoid that 1/4.

I know exactly of where you're talking about.

[Norstal]

You must be lying, I have never once been killed/stabbed/mugged in Glasgow which is the epicenter of all petty crime.

100000% serious.

Come now. If this is a British city, the Frenchies must be worse.

[Alien Space Bats]

I would say that Detroit's biggest problem is policing, and that it's second biggest problem is a lack of employment. Corruption and the poor quality of education are serious problems, but pale when compared to the other two I've named.

Employment is always going to be a problem in detroit though because the city government is batshit insane. And since that is unlikely to change...

Oh, I don't know. I get the sense that Dave Bing is a decent man, and I generally felt the same about Kenneth Cockrel, Jr., who preceded him as interim mayor and lost the mayoral race to Bing (Detroit's mayoral candidates run on a non-partisan ballot, so you can't really put party labels on them). The City Council needs fumigation, but that seems to be happening slowly but surely. It will take time, but I'm hopeful that the corruption will get cleaned up. While horrid at its worst, it was never as institutionalized as in other big cities.

Although the state government also, leaves much to be desired.

What?!? You're not thrilled with our shiny new ultra-conservative government? I'm sure as Hell not.

I've gone through for the airport and for the bus station. The bus station is pretty sketchy and horrible (and if you're a girl who can avoid the use of the bathrooms, I would advise you to do so) and there are barbed wire gates that cover the ends of the bus area.

The airport isn't bad. I mean, it's an airport.

The airport's not in Detroit - it's in Romulus.

[Lackadaisical2]

This may be one of the few cities in the world where urban planning involves downsizing, rather than growth. In the meantime, proposals are being put forward to turn the ghetto land into small inner-city farming plots.

Clearly someone isn't familiar with the rustbelt. Most cities are downsizing, I thought, my hometown sure is.

[Saiwania]

It's so easy to blame liberals and liberal policies isn't it?

Detroit is the model city for liberal policies in action for over half a century. Nothing but Democratic mayors since 1961, powerful unions, expanded government entitlements with no exceptions. To hell with the UAW. Their members do not need $74 an hour + benefits, when the real market wage for their labor is only about $25 an hour to start out. Toyota operates plenty of plants in the US and they don't have nearly the problems that the big three US automakers have because of their union contracts. The unions have gotten so greedy, that they drove out the very jobs they were trying to protect.

This video was very informative about the problems with Detroit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw

[Maurepas]

And unlike us, their football team blows, as I remind my friend from Detroit everytime he hates on the Saints,

[Alien Space Bats]

It's so easy to blame liberals and liberal policies isn't it?

Detroit is the model city for liberal policies in action for over half a century. Nothing but Democratic mayors since 1961, powerful unions, expanded government entitlements with no exceptions. To hell with the UAW. Their members do not need $74 an hour + benefits, when the real market wage for their labor is only about $25 an hour to start out. Toyota operates plenty of plants in the US and they don't have nearly the problems that the big three US automakers have because of their union contracts. The unions have gotten so greedy, that they drove out the very jobs they were trying to protect.

This video was very informative about the problems with Detroit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw

Two problems with your rant:

• Detroit mayors are elected on a non-partisan ballot. How in the Hell would you or anyone else know if the mayor was a Republican, and if no Republican ever ran for the office, how in the Hell would it be Detroit's fault for not electing one? Stupid partisan rants are stupid.
  
  
• That $74 a hour figure includes all benefits, as well as pension distributions for retired or disabled workers. The figure for the newest non-union plants in the South is somewhere in the neighborhood of $55 a hour, and the foreign transplants operating in the South haven't been running for as long, so their don't have as many retirees. I've never seen anyone take the Southern transplant cost figure and adjust it for what it would be if both Northern UAW plants and Southern "right to work" plants had the same demographic mix, but I'll lay odds that of they did, the numbers would be less that $10/hour apart. Add in the fact that those Northern UAW plants have higher measured productivity, and I think a case could be made that the whole union vs. "righ to work" argument is a wash from a community perspective.

So, because I'm in the mood to stomp on people who don't know what they're talking about today, let me ask you: How many years have you been living in Southeastern Michigan, and what sort of intimate, on-the-ground familiarity do you have with Detroit?

My guess is you've never lived here and get everything you think you know about Detroit from biased media sources that exist to advance a political agenda, but that's just my best guess. Prove me wrong, and explain what it is that makes you qualified to comment with insight in this thread.

[Sibirsky]

if no Republican ever ran for the office, how in the Hell would it be Detroit's fault for not electing one?

Republicans don't field a candidate for Mayor of DC. Haven't in many years.

Add in the fact that those Northern UAW plants have higher measured productivity

They do? That's news to me. I thought the foreign transplants were considerably more productive. I always thought it was management stupidity up north.

[Vetalia]

Well, given how well GM and Ford are doing after their bankruptcy they might very well have a chance; they'll need to seriously crack down on corruption but I think there is hope for the city. Recall that Detroit isn't a total wasteland...there are some very, very wealthy areas and hope for revitalization.

Given how quintessentially American Detroit's rise to prosperity and influence was, I'd love nothing more than to see it rise again.

[Alien Space Bats]

if no Republican ever ran for the office, how in the Hell would it be Detroit's fault for not electing one?

Republicans don't field a candidate for Mayor of DC. Haven't in many years.

Fair enough, but my point remains: It's a non-partisan ballot, so the usual labels don't apply.

Dave Bing's just made his first "State of the City" address. I'd like to hear what you think.

iAdd in the fact that those Northern UAW plants have higher measured productivity

They do? That's news to me. I thought the foreign transplants were considerably more productive. I always thought it was management stupidity up north.

Yep. This has been covered to death here in Michigan, where we got a lot more local press coverage during the bailout debate. There were a lot of people here on both sides of the aisle who face-palmed constantly during that debate, in so far as the national press slid over all the nuances and just gravitated to the sound bites.

I think that there should have been a lot more discussion of the connection between the problems automakers were having in 2008 and the lack of consumer credit due to the fiscal crisis. People buy cars on credit; if you can't get credit, you can't buy a car (Hell, you usually can't even lease a car without credit...). Sadly, the credit corporations for all the auto firms - just like everyone else - had gotten themselves into the mortgage business (God, why, why, why, WHY?!?), so that screwed up everything as far as new car purchases were concerned. There were (and still are) also some market changes nobody has talked about (the way auto rental companies buy fleets new and then flood the market with 1-2 year old vehicles with 30,000-40,000 miles on them) which I'm still not certain won't have a profound long-term effect on the industry (it could move us towards an corporate-new/lease personal-used consumption model, and what that means for the industry is hard to predict).

Instead, everyone wanted to talk about the unions and moral hazards, because that was what the Conservative Noise and Light Machine (a/k/a FOX News) wanted to talk about. Nuances? What in the Hell are they, something French? Gimme McSoundbites!!!!

The whole management-labor relationship in the auto industry has evolved quite far from where it was a generation ago, and it doesn't serve anyone to pretend that it hasn't in favor of talking like we were still living in the 1970's.

I wish I could recommend some good books to you on the auto industry, Sibirsky. I know you get into economics enough that you'd probably find a serious, detailed discussion fascinating as Hell. This is not an easy industry to encapsulate in a few simple words - not by any means. Or, if you prefer flashback catch-phrases, this is not your father's Oldsmobile.

[Tmutarakhan]

More like, everywhere that's mostly red is not all that bad:

What's the story behind that image?

Detroit is getting a bad rap for unfair reasons. It's one thing for residents to complain, but if you've never lived in Detroit, you don't know what you're talking about.

Well, I was stuck there for 15 years, and was happy to put everything in my car and go. On my way out of the city, somebody from a freeway overpass threw a chunk of concrete down on me (popular sport around there), put a little chink in my windshield (naturally the crack eventually spread so that I had to replace the glass), just a farewell present from my city to confirm my decision to leave.

[Dynaminterra]

that sounds bad. I've lived in Toronto Canada, i can't even think of this shit happening there. Scarborough would get bad, especially near Jane and finch (university campus near there.) but it doesn't even scratch what you're describing.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

wow that's depressing. makes me think of this.
see i prefer this kinda stuff, but i still like the first vid.

[Sibirsky]

What's the story behind that image?

Detroit is getting a bad rap for unfair reasons. It's one thing for residents to complain, but if you've never lived in Detroit, you don't know what you're talking about.

Well, I was stuck there for 15 years, and was happy to put everything in my car and go. On my way out of the city, somebody from a freeway overpass threw a chunk of concrete down on me (popular sport around there), put a little chink in my windshield (naturally the crack eventually spread so that I had to replace the glass), just a farewell present from my city to confirm my decision to leave.

Fuckers. I can't imaging somebody throwing chunks of concrete at anything around here.

[Zarvarza]

Having been from there, I can say that there is a LOT more to Detroit than meets the eye. Its still a large populus city by a lot of standards. Yet, people built there for a reason, and ultimately people will rebuild there for the sam reason, it has a very strategic location... Sure, it needs to be cleaned up,but what city doesnt?

[Bosiu]

Detroit equals crime ridden Pyongyang minus the dictatorship.

[Sibirsky]

Detroit equals crime ridden Pyongyang minus the dictatorship.

It's got single party rule, if that counts.

[Bosiu]

Detroit equals crime ridden Pyongyang minus the dictatorship.

It's got single party rule, if that counts.

They have elections though.

[Sibirsky]

It's got single party rule, if that counts.

They have elections though.

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

[Alien Space Bats]

Detroit equals crime ridden Pyongyang minus the dictatorship.

It's got single party rule, if that counts.

Oh, come on. I've addressed this.

In a city where all ballots are non-partisan, how in the Hell do you know they're all Democrats? Only by "assuming" they are, and we all know what A-S-S-U-M-E means...

Besides, even if that were true, there's nothing preventing Republicans from organizing in Detroit and building a coalition based on the idea that what the city needs is to be come an Anlib or Micarchist paradise. Funny thing is, I don't even see them publicly trying, for all the screaming they're doing about how "the Democrats own Detroit".

It's the same old usual "we don't want to get our hands dirty dealing with problems" shit the GOP has made its boilerplate in recent years.

They have elections though.

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

Proof that Detroit elections are rigged, or get out of town.

[Bosiu]

They have elections though.

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

It's nit really an election unless there's some competition?

[Sibirsky]

It's got single party rule, if that counts.

Oh, come on. I've addressed this.

In a city where all ballots are non-partisan, how in the Hell do you know they're all Democrats? Only by "assuming" they are, and we all know what A-S-S-U-M-E means...

Besides, even if that were true, there's nothing preventing Republicans from organizing in Detroit and building a coalition based on the idea that what the city needs is to be come an Anlib or Micarchist paradise. Funny thing is, I don't even see them publicly trying, for all the screaming they're doing about how "the Democrats own Detroit".

It's the same old usual "we don't want to get our hands dirty dealing with problems" shit the GOP has made its boilerplate in recent years.

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

Proof that Detroit elections are rigged, or get out of town.

You're taking this way too seriously. It was a joke.

Republicans don't even field a candidate for Mayor of DC half the time.

[Farnhamia]

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

It's nit really an election unless there's some competition?

You need the Other Party to make an actual effort in order to have competition. Complaining, as ASB said, doesn't count.

[Sibirsky]

So does China. So did Iraq. So did the Soviet Union.

It's nit really an election unless there's some competition?

It was a joke. In those shit holes elections are shams.

In the US, certain locations are so heavily Democrat or Republican that sometimes the other party doesn't field a candidate and focuses their resources on other locations.