Exactly how ****ed is Detroit?

[Nazis in Space]

A lot of what you hear about the U.S. is also sensationalist crap to sell newspapers.

Bingo. For the most part even our "dangerous" cities are safe. Detroit definitely not as safe as others, but you won't necessarily be killed for walking around. You're almost guaranteed to get mugged if you spend enough time walking around the streets, sure, but if everyone who walked around Detroit was shot they'd have run out of victims 30 years ago.

If that's your standard of 'Safe', I'd argue that your problem is even bigger than everyone thought.

[Sun Aut Ex]

Not true at all, there are some streets that ambos wont go unless they have a police escort. They may not be shot but they will be assaulted quite severely. I know that is just one city but I dare say the bigger ones in Australia have the same problem.

After all there are some suburbs in Sydney I wouldn't want to be in

I have never heard or experienced anything like that.

[Blouman Empire]

Not true at all, there are some streets that ambos wont go unless they have a police escort. They may not be shot but they will be assaulted quite severely. I know that is just one city but I dare say the bigger ones in Australia have the same problem.

After all there are some suburbs in Sydney I wouldn't want to be in

I have never heard or experienced anything like that.

You should broaden your horizons, and not just think that the suburbs we live in are the same as others in Australia

[Havl]

...the dirty, litter covered streets and the generally angry, violent uneducated population....

Facts, huh? Have you been there? Have you talked with the "angry, violent uneducated" people?

[Vitaphone Racing]

Detroit is sad, but Chrysler, GM and Ford have only themselves to blame for their misfortune during the GFC.

Ill start with Chrysler. To put it simply, they made shit cars. Interior quality was well below Japanese standards, engines were about as refined as something out of a John Deere and they handled like complete pigs. On top of this, Chrysler was still under the impression that the world might want these cars. Wrong, exporting them was a big mistake. Until Chrysler makes cars that people might actually want to drive for more reasons than being american, they are doomed. Thanks to Fiat ownership, we may finally see a turn around and it can't come soon enough for America's sickest brand.

GM has an ignorance problem. While they do make some really great cars (Australian Commodore, Euro Astra & Insignia etc.), they also push their mediocre crap they source from Daewoo right around the world. I don't understand how GM expects people to get excited at the prospect of a rebadged Daewoo when Opel and Vauxhall are producing such great cars. I have news for you GM, a tempting bottom line isn't everything. Thats why Hyundai and Kia are desperate to shake the stigma of the typical Korean car so I have no idea why GM still aims to build them. GM desperately needs to give Korean cars the ass and start utilizing their better cars.

Ford also has an ignorance problem. They do not, NOT, share expertise between brands. Volvo, for example, has had great engines but poor chassis for ages. Yet is has taken Ford this long to donate some technical expertise to sort the handling problems out, and still they ignore the superb Volvo engines which would go great in many Fords. Then we have the issue of Australian Falcon vs American Taurus. Get this America, the Falcon is better than your Taurus and whats more it was designed on a budget that wouldn't cover the cost of the Ford Boardroom's paper towel bill. Why America hasn't embraced the Falcon, fixed its NVH and refinement issues and pushed it globally is ridiculous. Ford has the potential for a large, superb handling rear drive sedan to strike into the heart of BMW & Mercedes territory and still they ignore it.

So, Detroit has itself to blame. The big three no longer find themselves at the center of the automotive universe.

[Londim]

At least they'll get a Robocop statue...

Though that money might be better used on building a real Robocop. I've only seen Detroit through pictures and the news. To me it looks like the city should just be abandoned altogether.

[Servantium]

More like, everywhere that's mostly red is not all that bad:

What's the story behind that image?

Detroit is getting a bad rap for unfair reasons. It's one thing for residents to complain, but if you've never lived in Detroit, you don't know what you're talking about.

That image is a a population map color coded by ethnicity.

Red = White people
Blue = Black people
Yellow = Hispanic people

The line that pretty much divides the two colors is 8 mile. 8 mile is basically the dividing line between class levels in Detroit. Below it you've got crippling poverty and rampant crime. Above it you've got rich car manufacturers.

The "crippling poverty and rampant crime" part of the map is what people are talking about when they say that Detroit is dangerous.

[Alien Space Bats]

That image is a a population map color coded by ethnicity.

Red = White people
Blue = Black people
Yellow = Hispanic people

The line that pretty much divides the two colors is 8 mile. 8 mile is basically the dividing line between class levels in Detroit. Below it you've got crippling poverty and rampant crime. Above it you've got rich car manufacturers.

The "crippling poverty and rampant crime" part of the map is what people are talking about when they say that Detroit is dangerous.

Cause and effect, but which is which?

Blacks in Detroit usually live in the unsafe areas because, giving employment opportunities in the city, that is where they can afford to live. Whites live in the safer areas because they can generally afford to live there and don't have to settle for something in the neighborhoods (the blue areas).

I would say that Detroit's biggest problem is policing, and that it's second biggest problem is a lack of employment. Corruption and the poor quality of education are serious problems, but pale when compared to the other two I've named.

[Sibirsky]

It's not the concept I can't grasp, it's the idea that a govt lets it happen. Here, we alleged have a drunken violence epidemic (we don't, it's sensationalist crap to sell newspapers), and the police are out patrolling the city streets in numbers every night. If shit like happens in the US ever happened here, I can't imagine how heavy the police crackdown would be.

A lot of what you hear about the U.S. is also sensationalist crap to sell newspapers.

There's your answer to why US cities have the violent reputation they do.

[Sibirsky]

A lot of what you hear about the U.S. is also sensationalist crap to sell newspapers.

Bingo. For the most part even our "dangerous" cities are safe. Detroit definitely not as safe as others, but you won't necessarily be killed for walking around. You're almost guaranteed to get mugged if you spend enough time walking around the streets, sure, but if everyone who walked around Detroit was shot they'd have run out of victims 30 years ago.

Detroit is a special and extreme case though.

You're six times more likely to be mugged in London, than in New York.

[Lacadaemon]

I would say that Detroit's biggest problem is policing, and that it's second biggest problem is a lack of employment. Corruption and the poor quality of education are serious problems, but pale when compared to the other two I've named.

Employment is always going to be a problem in detroit though because the city government is batshit insane. And since that is unlikely to change...

[Sibirsky]

Detroit is sad, but Chrysler, GM and Ford have only themselves to blame for their misfortune during the GFC.

Ill start with Chrysler. To put it simply, they made shit cars. Interior quality was well below Japanese standards, engines were about as refined as something out of a John Deere and they handled like complete pigs. On top of this, Chrysler was still under the impression that the world might want these cars. Wrong, exporting them was a big mistake. Until Chrysler makes cars that people might actually want to drive for more reasons than being american, they are doomed. Thanks to Fiat ownership, we may finally see a turn around and it can't come soon enough for America's sickest brand.

GM has an ignorance problem. While they do make some really great cars (Australian Commodore, Euro Astra & Insignia etc.), they also push their mediocre crap they source from Daewoo right around the world. I don't understand how GM expects people to get excited at the prospect of a rebadged Daewoo when Opel and Vauxhall are producing such great cars. I have news for you GM, a tempting bottom line isn't everything. Thats why Hyundai and Kia are desperate to shake the stigma of the typical Korean car so I have no idea why GM still aims to build them. GM desperately needs to give Korean cars the ass and start utilizing their better cars.

Ford also has an ignorance problem. They do not, NOT, share expertise between brands. Volvo, for example, has had great engines but poor chassis for ages. Yet is has taken Ford this long to donate some technical expertise to sort the handling problems out, and still they ignore the superb Volvo engines which would go great in many Fords. Then we have the issue of Australian Falcon vs American Taurus. Get this America, the Falcon is better than your Taurus and whats more it was designed on a budget that wouldn't cover the cost of the Ford Boardroom's paper towel bill. Why America hasn't embraced the Falcon, fixed its NVH and refinement issues and pushed it globally is ridiculous. Ford has the potential for a large, superb handling rear drive sedan to strike into the heart of BMW & Mercedes territory and still they ignore it.

So, Detroit has itself to blame. The big three no longer find themselves at the center of the automotive universe.

Entirely ignoring labor costs and UAW. When you have to pay 30% more for labor, and it takes longer to make a car due to your own ineptitude, you have to cut costs elsewhere, like interior components.

Fiat is a joke compared to Chrysler. GM owns both Opel and Vauxhall.

Australian cars are different. Not sure why we don't get more of them here. I like the Holden Ute and the Commodore. Or any HSV just about. And we don't get shit here in the US. Don't get me wrong, we have hundreds of different cars available, but over the past 7 years we've only had 2 Australian cars. And it took us ages to get the Skyline GT-R.

[Sibirsky]

I would say that Detroit's biggest problem is policing, and that it's second biggest problem is a lack of employment. Corruption and the poor quality of education are serious problems, but pale when compared to the other two I've named.

Employment is always going to be a problem in detroit though because the city government is batshit insane. And since that is unlikely to change...

This...

Although the state government also, leaves much to be desired.

[Sibirsky]

At least the Detroit Federation of Teachers is looking out for the kids.

‘Am I optimistic that they can avoid it . . . ? I am not.” That’s what retired judge Ray Graves said this week when asked whether the Detroit public schools, which he is advising, would be forced into bankruptcy. Facing violence, a shrinking student body, and graduating just one out of every four students who enter the ninth grade on time, the city’s schools have been stumbling for years. Now they face a seemingly insurmountable deficit and are expected to file for bankruptcy protection at about the time that students should be settling down in a new school year.

As embarrassing as such a filing would be, it also may be the only thing that can force the kinds of changes Detroit schools need—as the financial turmoil is just the latest manifestation of a system in terminal decline.

Detroit is like many urban school districts—large, unwieldy and bureaucratic, with a powerful union that makes the system unable to adapt to changing circumstances and that until very recently had an indulgent political class that insulated it from reform. That insulation came in two forms. The first was neglect. Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick spent several years distracted by a scandal stemming from his affair with a staffer. He resigned last year, pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice, and was sentenced to four months in jail. Had he been an effective mayor, he might have also been a powerful advocate for students.

The other insulating force was a conscious decision to wall off Detroit from charter schools. In 1993, Michigan’s legislature made it difficult to create new charters in Detroit by declaring that only community colleges could authorize charters for primary and secondary schools in “First-Class Districts”—defined as those with more than 100,000 students. Detroit was the only First-Class District. In 2003 the state, under pressure from the Detroit Federation of Teachers, turned down a gift of $200 million from philanthropist Robert Thompson that would have established 15 charter schools in the city. Those charters are needed today.

The net result has been a school system that’s been coming apart as the teachers union has dug in its heels. In 2006, the union illegally went on strike, killing a plan to force teachers to take a pay cut to balance the system’s books.

In June, seven students were wounded in a shooting near Cody Ninth Grade Academy just two weeks after 16-year-old Tenecia Walter was shot in the chest shortly after leaving class at Denby High School. Earlier this year a gunfight broke out in Detroit’s Central High School and last year a student was shot and killed walking home from Henry Ford High School. All of this has forced school officials to step up security measures, including increasing the number of police patrols.

Meanwhile, only 16.2% of the city’s 11th graders scored proficient in math this year on the state’s standardized Merit Examination, compared to 49.3% statewide. Detroit reading and science scores are just as bleak. And this in schools that spend $1,700 more per student than the state average.

The school system also has been rocked by corruption. A few years ago, an audit revealed that Detroit’s school system misused more than $46 million on insurance and other contracts and was forced to sue venders to get some of its money back. Two of the system’s employees were recently indicted for allegedly embezzling $400,000 from the school system over the past couple of years.

To clean up the mess, the state took control of the district earlier this year and brought in Robert Bobb as an “emergency financial manager.” In June, to stem pay-check fraud he required that employees pick up their paychecks in person. Paychecks for 257 suspected “ghost” employees—people who had improperly been getting checks—went unclaimed.

Mr. Bobb has been energetic in tackling problems. At the outset, he faced a $306 million shortfall in a $1.3 billion budget. He responded by closing 29 schools, laying off 2,500 employees, and cutting 80% from the budget of the department that draws up the district’s curriculum. He plans to overhaul 40 schools and has hired private companies to run 17 of the district’s 22 high schools. He also tapped Mr. Graves, a bankruptcy expert, for advice.

The Detroit Board of Education has gone along with many of these changes. But it is now seeking a court injunction to block private companies from running district high schools. The board says Mr. Bobb exceeded his authority in hiring the companies. But a court fight will only bog things down at a time when the district still faces a $260 million deficit.

This is why Mr. Graves and others see little alternative to declaring bankruptcy, and why doing so would likely be a net benefit. It would allow the city to tear up union contracts, cut some of its debt, and forge a political consensus for lasting reforms. No one will want to repeat the bankruptcy experience any time soon.

What the city needs is a multitude of charter schools and other school-choice provisions that would give students a means to escape. It also needs to break free of collective-bargaining agreements. Collective bargaining for government employees is not a constitutional right; it is a special privilege, and one that has been abused. Michigan’s education laws could be amended to allow school districts to suspend collective-bargaining agreements when that district fails to meet minimal academic standards, is pushed to the brink of bankruptcy, or when the union goes out on an illegal strike.

Over the past seven years, Detroit schools have lost 60,000 students. Its system is now, according to the state’s attorney general, so small that it no longer qualifies as a First-Class District.

That gives the state legislature and Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm an opportunity to do what they needed to do all along: Treat Detroit like other school districts in the state and hold local officials accountable when the schools fail to perform. Walling off Detroit from the rest of the state may have some appeal and was once the politically easy thing to do, but it’s only given Michigan a larger mess to clean up.

[Georgism]

You're six times more likely to be mugged in London, than in New York.

Sounds about right. I've been mugged a few times and I live in a fairly nice area (albeit surrounded by a bunch of shithole areas).

[Sibirsky]

You're six times more likely to be mugged in London, than in New York.

Sounds about right. I've been mugged a few times and I live in a fairly nice area (albeit surrounded by a bunch of shithole areas).

Damn are you serious? That's worse then I thought...

[Maraque]

I live in New York.

Never been mugged. ^_^

[Dakini]

I've gone through for the airport and for the bus station. The bus station is pretty sketchy and horrible (and if you're a girl who can avoid the use of the bathrooms, I would advise you to do so) and there are barbed wire gates that cover the ends of the bus area.

The airport isn't bad. I mean, it's an airport.

But one of my friends went through on a photography trip (they traveled in a large group) just taking pictures of/in the abandoned buildings and it's pretty surreal. The city has emptied out and it's just like a ghost town in parts (well, a ghost town with squatters and lots of spray paint). It seems pretty bleak.

[Sibirsky]

I've gone through for the airport and for the bus station. The bus station is pretty sketchy and horrible (and if you're a girl who can avoid the use of the bathrooms, I would advise you to do so) and there are barbed wire gates that cover the ends of the bus area.

The airport isn't bad. I mean, it's an airport.

But one of my friends went through on a photography trip (they traveled in a large group) just taking pictures of/in the abandoned buildings and it's pretty surreal. The city has emptied out and it's just like a ghost town in parts (well, a ghost town with squatters and lots of spray paint). It seems pretty bleak.

It probably feels like a different planet. Or a different nation at least*.

*Yes, I understand that it is a different nation, but I mean, radically different.

I imagine, it looks similar to the abandoned steel mills in Bethlehem, except on a much more massive scale. Seen those and it's eye opening.

[Sibirsky]

I live in New York.

Never been mugged. ^_^

New York is a great city. None of my complaints with it have anything to do with crime.

I've been there... I don't know, probably a dozen times. From a couple of days to a week or so at a time.

The first time I was there (I was 10 years old), this guy walks up to me holding a bunch of cash out. I'm like
He says, "be careful with your money young man. I took this out of your pocket." I checked, and indeed the money was mine. Didn't feel a thing.

[The Lone Alliance]

I may not know about how bad it is for the population or the state of it's services... But seeing photos of parts of the city, you'd think it was Pripyat.

I live in New York.

Never been mugged. ^_^

New York is a great city. None of my complaints with it have anything to do with crime.

I've been there... I don't know, probably a dozen times. From a couple of days to a week or so at a time.

The first time I was there (I was 10 years old), this guy walks up to me holding a bunch of cash out. I'm like
He says, "be careful with your money young man. I took this out of your pocket." I checked, and indeed the money was mine. Didn't feel a thing.

Come to New York, our pickpockets have standards.

[Georgism]

Damn are you serious? That's worse then I thought...

Yeah. On the plus side though only once was at knife point, which is probably better than you can expect just up the Uxbridge Road towards Hayes Town (not that you'd know where I'm talking about ).

[Oterro]

Damn are you serious? That's worse then I thought...

Yeah. On the plus side though only once was at knife point, which is probably better than you can expect just up the Uxbridge Road towards Hayes Town (not that you'd know where I'm talking about ).

You must be lying, I have never once been killed/stabbed/mugged in Glasgow which is the epicenter of all petty crime.

[Georgism]

You must be lying, I have never once been killed/stabbed/mugged in Glasgow which is the epicenter of all petty crime.

100000% serious.

[Oterro]

You must be lying, I have never once been killed/stabbed/mugged in Glasgow which is the epicenter of all petty crime.

100000% serious.

Maybe you just look really God damn muggable.