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Japan gets weirder...

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Montanaa
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Montanaa » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:49 pm

Geek time!
Conserative Morality wrote:
Anemos Major wrote:By the end ofthe war, most of the population was disillusioned by the whole affair. ANyways, there was no such thing as the IJA by that point; it'd been all but wiped out. At the very least, you could have used the atomic bomb in a Show of Force near Tokyo, instead of dropping it on a major city. Nagasaki was a major port, so it's partly justifiable. But Hiroshima? I mean, exactly what purpose did that serve?

Remember; at the beginning of WWII, you had fanatical Nazi soldiers shooting at the enemy. By the end, the same Heer troops were gunning down SS officers so they could desert. Morale is a powerful thing, and Japan had none left.

While I agree that we could have dropped the bomb somewhere else, they were ready to pull out the suicide bombers if we invaded. Either way, the Atomic had/would have saved thousands of lives.

Actually, I remember reading somewhere the losses would have been lower than suggested. The military actually gave no accurate indication whatsoever of how many marines and servicemen would have been lost, ranging from 31k to 200k, when actually it was their own desires to participate or not, including using the atomic weapons. So, I think since the US had bombers, fighters, artillery/naval artillery, and such the losses would be lower.
And about Hiroshima not being a military target, the military wanted to use it on a civilian population, so as to prove what they could do with one bomb, as military targets were already being wiped out. And on Tokyo it would lead to hatred against the US if it killed the Emperor or wounded him, same with the city itself. :ugeek:
Last edited by Montanaa on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Conserative Morality
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:51 pm

Anemos Major wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:While I agree that we could have dropped the bomb somewhere else, they were ready to pull out the suicide bombers if we invaded. Either way, the Atomic had/would have saved thousands of lives.


But at what cost? The problem is that each side will sympathize with their own, a perfectly reasonable thing. Every life lost in that war was a loss. It's not a matter of which side they were on; they were, at the end, all people. Either way, there would have been losses. It's just that the USA did what was best for their people, and I cannot hold anything against that.

I'm not saying that their main reason wasn't saving American lives, I'm saying that by dropping the bomb, they saved plenty of American and Japanese lives, civilian and otherwise.
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:51 pm

Brogavia wrote:They traded a hundred thousand for tens of millions.


I doubt it. The US had the clear superiority; if they wanted to, they could simply have sat back and blockaded Japan.

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Conserative Morality
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:52 pm

Anemos Major wrote:I doubt it. The US had the clear superiority; if they wanted to, they could simply have sat back and blockaded Japan.

And literally starved them to death. Much better way to go, isn't it? Starvation, I mean. :roll:
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Brogavia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Brogavia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:54 pm

Montanaa wrote:Actually, I remember reading somewhere the losses would have been lower than suggested. The military actually gave no accurate indication whatsoever of how many marines and servicemen would have been lost, ranging from 31k to 200k, when actually it was their own desires to participate or not, including using the atomic weapons. So, I think since the US had bombers, fighters, artillery/naval artillery, and such the losses would be lower.


Are you really suggestion that millitary planners that came up with these figures, forgot to include basic elements of combined arms warfare, which is the basis of almost every military doctine in some form since the Romans?
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:54 pm

What, than spending years in hospital, scarred and burned, slowly dying without knowing what's hapening except that you're in more pain than you've ever known, and that your entire family is dead, eventually succumbing to the radiation poisoning and burns?

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Brogavia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Brogavia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:56 pm

Anemos Major wrote:
Brogavia wrote:They traded a hundred thousand for tens of millions.


I doubt it. The US had the clear superiority; if they wanted to, they could simply have sat back and blockaded Japan.


Every time the Americans attacked an island with a Japanese civilian population, the millitary forced or convinced a good chunk of the civilian population to commit sucide, rather than be occupied by American citizens. Do you really think this time it would be different?

And we were blockading japan.
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Aelosia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Aelosia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:57 pm

Do you know that people like that, while exist in Japan, are not common?

I went to Japan for the first three months of this year, and I realized the weirdos are a minority.

Actually, between the japanese socially excluded minorities, like this guy, and the american socially excluded minorities, like the Unabomber, I take the japanese guy anyday. As far as I know, with some clear exceptions, most of these recluded socially excluded people are inoffensive in Japan.

I am pretty sure there is someone in my country that fell in love with his/her pillow. I am pretty sure there are hundreds of people in love with their dogs in america, and with their horses in China. So what? They are harmless, let them be.
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Gauthier » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:57 pm

Saint Clair Island wrote:We should also have dropped a nuke on Hollywood and L.A., to keep them from producing all those dumb romantic comedies and such-like.


And as a bonus, wipe out all those "Reality Shows".
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:57 pm

Brogavia wrote:
Anemos Major wrote:
Brogavia wrote:They traded a hundred thousand for tens of millions.


I doubt it. The US had the clear superiority; if they wanted to, they could simply have sat back and blockaded Japan.


Every time the Americans attacked an island with a Japanese civilian population, the millitary forced or convinced a good chunk of the civilian population to commit sucide, rather than be occupied by American citizens. Do you really think this time it would be different?

And we were blockading japan.


That's true. But burnign them all alive isn't exactly the way to go either, is it?

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Redwulf
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Redwulf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:58 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I watched 'Battle of The Planets' when I was a kid. :p


Exactly. Who doesn't remember literally decades of japanese cartoons - not to mention the Godzilla movies...


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Brogavia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Brogavia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:59 pm

Anemos Major wrote:What, than spending years in hospital, scarred and burned, slowly dying without knowing what's hapening except that you're in more pain than you've ever known, and that your entire family is dead, eventually succumbing to the radiation poisoning and burns?


A small minority compared to millions starving to death or being forced to fight, or commit sucide.
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Saint Clair Island
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Saint Clair Island » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:00 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Saint Clair Island wrote:We should also have dropped a nuke on Hollywood and L.A., to keep them from producing all those dumb romantic comedies and such-like.


And as a bonus, wipe out all those "Reality Shows".
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:00 pm

Redwulf wrote:Voltron, Thunder Cats, "Go Speed Racer, go!"


The... good... old... days... urmm....

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Brogavia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Brogavia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:01 pm

Anemos Major wrote:
Redwulf wrote:Voltron, Thunder Cats, "Go Speed Racer, go!"


The... good... old... days... urmm....


No should thing.
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:01 pm

Brogavia wrote:A small minority compared to millions starving to death or being forced to fight, or commit sucide.


Well then, I'll use your point against you; surely suicide is preferrable to suffering for years in pain on a hospital bed, burned and blasted with radiaiton?

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Aelosia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Aelosia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:02 pm

Redwulf wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I watched 'Battle of The Planets' when I was a kid. :p


Exactly. Who doesn't remember literally decades of japanese cartoons - not to mention the Godzilla movies...


Voltron, Thunder Cats, "Go Speed Racer, go!"


Thundercats wasn't japanese, pal.
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Saint Jade IV
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Saint Jade IV » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:02 pm

The only reason that the casualties from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the associated atrocities are not recognised as war crimes is because they were done by the eventual victor. And because of the atrocities that the Japanese army perpetrated against POWs and other personell.

I never fail to be amazed when this argument starts at the back and forth of people trying to one-up each other with atrocities. Can't we say that it was just bad on both sides, a war crime and an evil act and leave it be?

I came in here for a laugh and all I want to do now is :palm:
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Katganistan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:02 pm

North Suran wrote:
Scarsaw wrote:Anyway, about the topic. Japan rages like that have always scared me, and honestly, I have no clue why so many American teens find Japan so 'kawakii'!

The Western love affair with Japanese culture - especially anime - pretty much started with Pokemon and Dragonball Z, before launching into an epidemic once anime became readily available from the Internet.

Really? That must be why I was watching Dirty Pair, and Lupin, and Bubblegum Crisis, and Project A-ko, and Gatchaman, and Voltron, and Astroboy, and Macross, and Tank Police and Akira and Ogenki Clinic looooooong before Pokemon and Dragonball Z. Because there was no interest in Japanese anime or culture before then.

Think of all the Sci-Fi cons I went to where they weren't running anime for 12 hours a day!

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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:04 pm

Lupin III and Astro-Boy were great; hell, I have all the manga of the latter. I liked Tezuka Osamu quite a lot.

But Gatchaman.... well...

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Montanaa
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Montanaa » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:04 pm

Brogavia wrote:
Montanaa wrote:Actually, I remember reading somewhere the losses would have been lower than suggested. The military actually gave no accurate indication whatsoever of how many marines and servicemen would have been lost, ranging from 31k to 200k, when actually it was their own desires to participate or not, including using the atomic weapons. So, I think since the US had bombers, fighters, artillery/naval artillery, and such the losses would be lower.


Are you really suggestion that millitary planners that came up with these figures, forgot to include basic elements of combined arms warfare, which is the basis of almost every military doctine in some form since the Romans?

Yes. They just wanted an excuse to use the bomb, or not use and go ahead with X-Day. Most of the Joint Chiefs of Staff didn't want to go ahead with the invasion, not after seeing how the battle of Okinawa went. They came up with the numbers of casualties simply to get ahead of one another's branch of service and such.

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Redwulf
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Redwulf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:04 pm

Anemos Major wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:While I agree that we could have dropped the bomb somewhere else, they were ready to pull out the suicide bombers if we invaded. Either way, the Atomic had/would have saved thousands of lives.


But at what cost? The problem is that each side will sympathize with their own, a perfectly reasonable thing.


Actually I have no sympathy for my countries terrorist actions against Japan, but once again can we take this thread jack to another thread? This one is supposed to be about geeks in love with cartoon girls.

So on topic . . . that Betty Boop sure was a hottie, huh?
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Anemos Major
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Anemos Major » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:05 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:The only reason that the casualties from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the associated atrocities are not recognised as war crimes is because they were done by the eventual victor. And because of the atrocities that the Japanese army perpetrated against POWs and other personell.

I never fail to be amazed when this argument starts at the back and forth of people trying to one-up each other with atrocities. Can't we say that it was just bad on both sides, a war crime and an evil act and leave it be?

I came in here for a laugh and all I want to do now is :palm:


Oh, everyone committed atrocities during the war. And the deaths can't be justified; the whole war was started for a stupid reason.

So why on Earth am I arguing?

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Brogavia
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Re: Japan gets weirder...

Postby Brogavia » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:05 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:The only reason that the casualties from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the associated atrocities are not recognised as war crimes is because they were done by the eventual victor. And because of the atrocities that the Japanese army perpetrated against POWs and other personell.

I never fail to be amazed when this argument starts at the back and forth of people trying to one-up each other with atrocities. Can't we say that it was just bad on both sides, a war crime and an evil act and leave it be?

I came in here for a laugh and all I want to do now is :palm:


What freaking attrocties?

Bombing of cities?

The targets were industrial, which they de centralized and scattered inside densly populated residential areas.
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