SD wants to endrun Roe v Wade by legalizing murder of docs

[Geniasis]

Why isn't a fetus a person?

Because it does not possess personhood.

[Nulono]

Why isn't a fetus a person?

Because it does not possess personhood.

Why doesn't the fetus possess personhood?

[Geniasis]

Why doesn't the fetus possess personhood?

Because the law says it doesn't. In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence.

[Nulono]

Why doesn't the fetus possess personhood?

Because the law says it doesn't. In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence.

So whatever the law says goes?

[Naraba]

putas, guerra e morte pela patria fodida

[Geniasis]

So whatever the law says goes?

That was only half of my statement, but do you assert that the law is wrong?

Why?

[Teotan]

I dunno. Prove it.

Prove what?

Prove why a fetus is or isn't a person.

[Dyakovo]

Whenever you're ready to prove that a fetus is a person, go ahead.

Why isn't a fetus a person?

Because it doesn't fit the definition.

The state or condition of being a person, especially having those qualities that confer distinct individuality.

[Nulono]

Because the law says it doesn't. In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence.

So whatever the law says goes?

That was only half of my statement, but do you assert that the law is wrong?

Why?[/quote]
Slugs have an independent physiological existence. Are they people?

Yes, the law is wrong, because it denies basic human equality.

[Geniasis]

Slugs have an independent physiological existence. Are they people?

That would be odd, since only human beings can be people.

Yes, the law is wrong, because it denies basic human equality.

Fetuses are not yet actual humans. Until they are born they are potential human beings. Naturally, if the fetus is viable, then it is preferable to deliver it. However, abortions at that point are almost exclusively done out of medical necessity, so it's not much of an issue.

[Wiztopia]

*yawns* Nulono still being asinine? Might as well get back on topic.

[Los Cabreddes]

Why doesn't the fetus possess personhood?

Because the law says it doesn't. In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence.

Well actually that's not totally true:

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2011 ... /110209708

[Nulono]

Slugs have an independent physiological existence. Are they people?

That would be odd, since only human beings can be people.

Why can only human beings be people? And why aren't all human beings people?

Yes, the law is wrong, because it denies basic human equality.

Fetuses are not yet actual humans. Until they are born they are potential human beings. Naturally, if the fetus is viable, then it is preferable to deliver it. However, abortions at that point are almost exclusively done out of medical necessity, so it's not much of an issue.

Since you seem to know more then the scientific community, please tell me to which species a fetus belongs to that has human parents, human DNA, and a human developmental trajectory. 'Cause I'd say H. sapiens. Also kindly tell us the mechanism by which an organism changes species, 'cause that's generally held to be biologically impossible.

[Los Cabreddes]

"In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence."

Does ANY being possess an independent physiological existence? I mean, suck the atmosphere out of the earth and you'll die pretty quick.

[Farnhamia]

"In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence."

Does ANY being possess an independent physiological existence? I mean, suck the atmosphere out of the earth and you'll die pretty quick.

Except you can't do that. And don't be disingenuous, you know perfectly well what the poster meant (by the way, the "Quote" button in the upper right-hand section of each post is a fun and useful way to carry on a conversation here).

[The Cat-Tribe]

What is your source for those definitions?

I just googled them and they both come from Princeton.

Um. I originally googled them and missed the "source" it is so obscure.

Apparently, the Free Dictionary lists those definitions in its Thesaraus section. The source is listed as "Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc."

This is a sad stretch -- especially when almost no other sources give a definition that fits Nulono's purpose. Most recognize these are legal terms and most use language that wouldn't allow for Nulono's sophistry.

BUT, I digress and I allow Nulono to hijack this thread further. THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THE PROPOSED S.D. LAW (and proposed laws like it in other states), NOT ABORTION IN GENERAL.

Let's try to regroup, people!

[The Cat-Tribe]

Because the law says it doesn't. In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence.

Well actually that's not totally true:

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2011 ... /110209708

Completely irrelevant, but also WRONG. The law in question there does not say the unborn are legal persons.

[Los Cabreddes]

Well actually that's not totally true:

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2011 ... /110209708

Completely irrelevant, but also WRONG. The law in question there does not say the unborn are legal persons.

By ruling they are victims of murders, you are setting a precedent that they are. This is called "Common Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Then again, by Roe v. Wade, there should be no criminal law in the United States of America as if you look closely at what was considered "unconstitutional" (the violation of privacy required or supposedly required to enforce an abortion law) it would apply equally to all criminal laws including murder. I'm not saying that Abortion shouldn't be legal, in fact it should be, but Roe v. Wade is one of the worst pieces of legal judgement ever written in the history of mankind.

[Los Cabreddes]

"In addition, it is not a being that possesses a independent physiological existence."

Does ANY being possess an independent physiological existence? I mean, suck the atmosphere out of the earth and you'll die pretty quick.

Except you can't do that. And don't be disingenuous, you know perfectly well what the poster meant (by the way, the "Quote" button in the upper right-hand section of each post is a fun and useful way to carry on a conversation here).

I know, but I was only interested in responding to a tiny portion of the post. But seriously, every cell in your body is dependent on every other, and sometimes bacteria, which are very much independent organisms, get lodged inside of you and live symbiotically. This doesn't deny their being, it merely means that their ecosystem is a highly biological one.

[Bitchkitten]

South Dakota Moves To Legalize Killing Abortion Providers
By Kate Sheppard

Tue Feb. 15, 2011 3:00 AM PST

A law under consideration in South Dakota would expand the definition of "justifiable homicide" to include killings that are intended to prevent harm to a fetus—a move that could make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions. The Republican-backed legislation, House Bill 1171, has passed out of committee on a nine-to-three party-line vote, and is expected to face a floor vote in the state's GOP-dominated House of Representatives soon.
"The bill in South Dakota is an invitation to murder abortion providers."

The bill, sponsored by state Rep. Phil Jensen, a committed foe of abortion rights, alters the state's legal definition of justifiable homicide by adding language stating that a homicide is permissible if committed by a person "while resisting an attempt to harm" that person's unborn child or the unborn child of that person's spouse, partner, parent, or child. If the bill passes, it could in theory allow a woman's father, mother, son, daughter, or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman an abortion—even if she wanted one.

Jensen did not return calls to his home or his office requesting comment on the bill, which is cosponsored by 22 other state representatives and four state senators. UPDATE: Jensen spoke to Mother Jones on Tuesday morning, after this story was published. He says that he disagrees with this interpretation of the bill. "This simply is to bring consistency to South Dakota statute as it relates to justifiable homicide," said Jensen in an interview, repeating an argument he made in the committee hearing on the bill last week. "If you look at the code, these codes are dealing with illegal acts. Now, abortion is a legal act. So this has got nothing to do with abortion." Jensen also aggressively defended the bill in an interview with the Washington Post's Greg Sargent on Tuesday morning.

"The bill in South Dakota is an invitation to murder abortion providers," says Vicki Saporta, the president of the National Abortion Federation, the professional association of abortion providers. Since 1993, eight doctors have been assassinated at the hands of anti-abortion extremists, and another 17 have been the victims of murder attempts. Some of the perpetrators of those crimes have tried to use the justifiable homicide defense at their trials. "This is not an abstract bill," Saporta says. The measure could have major implications if a "misguided extremist invokes this 'self-defense' statute to justify the murder of a doctor, nurse or volunteer," the South Dakota Campaign for Healthy Families warned in a message to supporters last week.

Advertise on MotherJones.com

The original version of the bill did not include the language regarding the "unborn child"; it was pitched as a simple clarification of South Dakota's justifiable homicide law. Last week, however, the bill was "hoghoused"—a term used in South Dakota for heavily amending legislation in committee—in a little-noticed hearing. A parade of right-wing groups—the Family Heritage Alliance, Concerned Women for America, the South Dakota branch of Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and a political action committee called Family Matters in South Dakota—all testified in favor of the amended version of the law.

Jensen, the bill's sponsor, has said that he simply intends to bring "consistency" to South Dakota's criminal code, which already allows prosecutors to charge people with manslaughter or murder for crimes that result in the death of fetuses. But there's a difference between counting the murder of a pregnant woman as two crimes—which is permissible under law in many states—and making the protection of a fetus an affirmative defense against a murder charge.

"They always intended this to be a fetal personhood bill, they just tried to cloak it as a self-defense bill," says Kristin Aschenbrenner, a lobbyist for South Dakota Advocacy Network for Women. "They're still trying to cloak it, but they amended it right away, making their intent clear." The major change to the legislation also caught abortion rights advocates off guard. "None of us really felt like we were prepared," she says.

Sara Rosenbaum, a law professor at George Washington University who frequently testifies before Congress about abortion legislation, says the bill is legally dubious. "It takes my breath away," she says in an email to Mother Jones. "Constitutionally, a state cannot make it a crime to perform a constitutionally lawful act."

South Dakota already has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, and one of the lowest abortion rates. Since 1994, there have been no providers in the state. Planned Parenthood flies a doctor in from out-of-state once a week to see patients at a Sioux Falls clinic. Women from the more remote parts of the large, rural state drive up to six hours to reach this lone clinic. And under state law women are then required to receive counseling and wait 24 hours before undergoing the procedure. (Click here for an interactive map of abortion restrictions.)

Before performing an abortion, a South Dakota doctor must offer the woman the opportunity to view a sonogram. And under a law passed in 2005, doctors are required to read a script meant to discourage women from proceeding with the abortion: "The abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being." Until recently, doctors also had to tell a woman seeking an abortion that she had "an existing relationship with that unborn human being" that was protected under the Constitution and state law and that abortion poses a "known medical risk" and "increased risk of suicide ideation and suicide." In August 2009, a US District Court Judge threw out those portions of the script, finding them "untruthful and misleading." The state has appealed the decision.

The South Dakota legislature has twice tried to ban abortion outright, but voters rejected the ban at the polls in 2006 and 2008, by a 12-point margin both times. Conservative lawmakers have since been looking to limit access any other way possible. "They seem to be taking an end run around that," says state Sen. Angie Buhl, a Democrat. "They recognize that people don't want a ban, so they are trying to seek a de facto ban by making it essentially impossible to access abortion services."

South Dakota's legislature is strongly tilted against abortion rights, which makes passing restrictions fairly easy. Just 19 of 70 House members and 5 of the 35 state senators are Democrats—and many of the Democrats also oppose abortion rights.

The law that would legalize killing abortion providers is just one of several measures under consideration in the state that would create more obstacles for a woman seeking an abortion. Another proposed law, House Bill 1217, would force women to undergo counseling at a Crisis Pregnancy Center (CPC) before they can obtain an abortion. CPCs are not regulated and are generally run by anti-abortion Christian groups and staffed by volunteers—not doctors or nurses—with the goal of discouraging women from having abortions.

A congressional investigation into CPCs in 2006 found that the centers often provide "false or misleading information about the health risks of an abortion"—alleging ties between abortion and breast cancer, negative impacts on fertility, and mental-health concerns. "This may advance the mission of the pregnancy resource centers, which are typically pro-life organizations dedicated to preventing abortion," the report concluded, "but it is an inappropriate public health practice." In a recent interview, state Rep. Roger Hunt, one of the bill's sponsors, acknowledged that its intent is to "drastically reduce" the number of abortions in South Dakota.

House Bill 1217 would also require women to wait 72 hours after counseling before they can go forward with the abortion, and would require the doctor to develop an analysis of "risk factors associated with abortion" for each woman—a provision that critics contend is intentionally vague and could expose providers to lawsuits. A similar measure passed in Nebraska last spring, but a federal judge threw it out it last July, arguing that it would "require medical providers to give untruthful, misleading and irrelevant information to patients" and would create "substantial, likely insurmountable, obstacles" to women who want abortions. Extending the wait time and requiring a woman to consult first with the doctor, then with the CPC, and then meet with the doctor again before she can undergo the procedure would add additional burdens for women—especially for women who work or who already have children.

The South Dakota bills reflect a broader national strategy on the part of abortion-rights opponents, says Elizabeth Nash, a public policy associate with the Guttmacher Institute, a federal reproductive health advocacy and research group. "They erect a legal barrier, another, and another," says Nash. "At what point do women say, 'I can't climb that mountain'? This is where we're getting to."

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02 ... -providers

The right wing has officially gone way past nuttiness with this one, off the deep end into hardcore psychopathy.

Damn idiots.
Of course, Oklahoma has Coburn, who when campaigning said they shot shoot all abortion docs and women who use them. And won the election.

We've got plenty of other nuts too. Our Sen. Inhoff(sp?), the biggest global warming denier in the Senate.
And more locally, Sally Kern. Who said that gays were a bigger threat to America than Muslims or terrorists. I'm not sure who should be more offended, gays or Muslims.

[Nulono]

a tiny portion of the post.

It's not that hard.

But seriously, every cell in your body is dependent on every other, and sometimes bacteria, which are very much independent organisms, get lodged inside of you and live symbiotically. This doesn't deny their being, it merely means that their ecosystem is a highly biological one.

Habitat, not ecosystem.

Completely irrelevant, but also WRONG. The law in question there does not say the unborn are legal persons.

By ruling they are victims of murders, you are setting a precedent that they are. This is called "Common Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Then again, by Roe v. Wade, there should be no criminal law in the United States of America as if you look closely at what was considered "unconstitutional" (the violation of privacy required or supposedly required to enforce an abortion law) it would apply equally to all criminal laws including murder. I'm not saying that Abortion shouldn't be legal, in fact it should be, but Roe v. Wade is one of the worst pieces of legal judgement ever written in the history of mankind.

How would you have done it?

I just googled them and they both come from Princeton.

Um. I originally googled them and missed the "source" it is so obscure.

Apparently, the Free Dictionary lists those definitions in its Thesaraus section. The source is listed as "Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc."

This is a sad stretch -- especially when almost no other sources give a definition that fits Nulono's purpose. Most recognize these are legal terms and most use language that wouldn't allow for Nulono's sophistry.

BUT, I digress and I allow Nulono to hijack this thread further. THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THE PROPOSED S.D. LAW (and proposed laws like it in other states), NOT ABORTION IN GENERAL.

Let's try to regroup, people!

Sometimes, words are used in law with a slightly different meaning than their general English definition.

[The Cat-Tribe]

Completely irrelevant, but also WRONG. The law in question there does not say the unborn are legal persons.

By ruling they are victims of murders, you are setting a precedent that they are. This is called "Common Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Then again, by Roe v. Wade, there should be no criminal law in the United States of America as if you look closely at what was considered "unconstitutional" (the violation of privacy required or supposedly required to enforce an abortion law) it would apply equally to all criminal laws including murder. I'm not saying that Abortion shouldn't be legal, in fact it should be, but Roe v. Wade is one of the worst pieces of legal judgement ever written in the history of mankind.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Regardless, your post it too full of vague hand-waving nonsense to merit a response. Come back when you have a clue about: the difference between a charge and a conviction or judgment; what common law is; what precedent is; what statutes are; what SCOTUS actually held in Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), and Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992); and what the right to privacy means under Supreme Court jurisprudence.

[The Cat-Tribe]

a tiny portion of the post.

It's not that hard.

But seriously, every cell in your body is dependent on every other, and sometimes bacteria, which are very much independent organisms, get lodged inside of you and live symbiotically. This doesn't deny their being, it merely means that their ecosystem is a highly biological one.

Habitat, not ecosystem.

By ruling they are victims of murders, you are setting a precedent that they are. This is called "Common Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Then again, by Roe v. Wade, there should be no criminal law in the United States of America as if you look closely at what was considered "unconstitutional" (the violation of privacy required or supposedly required to enforce an abortion law) it would apply equally to all criminal laws including murder. I'm not saying that Abortion shouldn't be legal, in fact it should be, but Roe v. Wade is one of the worst pieces of legal judgement ever written in the history of mankind.

How would you have done it?

Um. I originally googled them and missed the "source" it is so obscure.

Apparently, the Free Dictionary lists those definitions in its Thesaraus section. The source is listed as "Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc."

This is a sad stretch -- especially when almost no other sources give a definition that fits Nulono's purpose. Most recognize these are legal terms and most use language that wouldn't allow for Nulono's sophistry.

BUT, I digress and I allow Nulono to hijack this thread further. THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THE PROPOSED S.D. LAW (and proposed laws like it in other states), NOT ABORTION IN GENERAL.

Let's try to regroup, people!

Sometimes, words are used in law with a slightly different meaning than their general English definition.

You tried that argument already. That led to your strained use of obscure definitions from a thesaurus.

[Nulono]

It's not that hard.

Habitat, not ecosystem.
How would you have done it?

Sometimes, words are used in law with a slightly different meaning than their general English definition.

You tried that argument already. That led to your strained use of obscure definitions from a thesaurus.

They're not from a thesaurus. The thesaurus took the definition from Princeton's WordNet.

[Hydesland]

Apparently, the Free Dictionary lists those definitions in its Thesaraus section. The source is listed as "Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc."

This is a sad stretch -- especially when almost no other sources give a definition that fits Nulono's purpose. Most recognize these are legal terms and most use language that wouldn't allow for Nulono's sophistry.

I used the define function in google:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define ... =firefox-a
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&cl ... arch&meta=

The very first definitions offered for both words are the ones Nulono used. They both point directly to the wordnet Princeton website:

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=homicide
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=murder