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Should England have its own parliament?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should England have its own parliament?

No - England is already represented in the House of Commons
35
32%
No - Scotland/Wales/NI should lose their devolved bodies as well
20
18%
Yes - a devolved English Parliament is needed
21
19%
Yes - the Union must break up
34
31%
 
Total votes : 110

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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:42 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:None of which is relevant to the reasons I gave against an English parliament.


For someone who insists on making snide, condescending remarks, you are pretty fucking ignorant.

Again, read your post. You said England was the largest region - no it isn't. It is a nation, not a region.

Again, none of which has anything to do with the points I made. The points that you are avoiding in favour of this pedantic obsession.

Breten wrote:As I said, please try to keep up with what's being discussed or don't get involved.

Practice what you preach.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Lackadaisical2
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Founded: Mar 03, 2008
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:43 am

North Suran wrote:
Chumblywumbly wrote:
Westminster is there for the UK and some of the legislation that passes through it only affects England. I'm sure you're well aware of the West Lothian question; the fact that MPs from Scotland, NI and Wales can help pass legislation that only affects English constituents. Though there are plenty more English MPs compared to ones from Scotland, NI and Wales, said MPs are drawn from across party lines. The last government made a great deal of this, pushing through foundation hospitals, tuition fee hikes, etc.; policies that would not have passed if only English MPs voted.

If not a separate English parliament, what's you solution? Excluding non-English MPs from legislative debates and votes (in effect creating an English parliament within Westminster)? Devolving more power to Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff?

Or something else?

The West Lothian Question is just an inherent problem of devolution, which cannot easily be solved. At any rate, I think the status quo is acceptable, and most proposed solutions are only can exacerbate the issue and make things worse.

How would having a separate parliament for England make anything worse?
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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:43 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:Yes. Giving all four Home Nations equal devolution with tax raising powers is the best way of saving the Union in my opinion,

Then your opinion is absurd. Rendering the UK Parliament toothless would be the final nail.


No it wouldn't. UK Government would still control issues such as defence, foreign affairs, transport, energy grids, etc.

Here's something quite interesting from the Adam Smith Institute on the Scotland Bill:

http://www.adamsmith.org/files/scotland-bill.pdf

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St George of England
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Postby St George of England » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:44 am

Banold wrote:I believe that the monarchy should be done away with, Ireland made whole again, and Great Britain be split into 3.

Except Northern Ireland doesn't want to join the morally and financially bankrupt mess to the south, not even a majority of Catholics want to, (it's something like 48% in favor and 40% against joining the south), and opinion polls in Wales show a similar thing, they just do not want to leave the
Union.

In Scotland it's closer, but iirc, opinion polls etc, have repeatedly shown a majority are in favor of remaining in the union.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:45 am

Jesus Christ. One parliament was too many. Now they're multiplying like regionalist rabbits.
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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:46 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:Then your opinion is absurd. Rendering the UK Parliament toothless would be the final nail.

No it wouldn't. UK Government would still control issues such as defence, foreign affairs, transport, energy grids, etc.

At which point, the UK essentially becomes a night watchman state.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:46 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:Again, read your post. You said England was the largest region - no it isn't. It is a nation, not a region.

Again, none of which has anything to do with the points I made. The points that you are avoiding in favour of this pedantic obsession.

Breten wrote:As I said, please try to keep up with what's being discussed or don't get involved.

Practice what you preach.



You really don't get this. One of the arguments FOR England to have its own NATIONAL parliament is that it is a nation, not a region. Your ignorance is blinding you.

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Interstellar Planets
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Postby Interstellar Planets » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:46 am

Devolution of the UK in an increasingly globilising world has always seemed a bit... I don't know, backwards to me, somehow. In an era where individual nations are losing influence in world affairs, chopping up an already-small nation into even smaller bits somehow doesn't seem like progress.

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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:48 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:Again, none of which has anything to do with the points I made. The points that you are avoiding in favour of this pedantic obsession.


Practice what you preach.

You really don't get this.

No, you don't get this, because you apparently have zero reading comprehension.

Breten wrote:One of the arguments FOR England to have its own NATIONAL parliament is that it is a nation, not a region.

Great. Excellent. Fan-fucking-tastic.

It still has literally nothing to do with the points I raised against the creation of an English Parliament. So if you would so kindly get around to addressing those points, rather than attacking an "England is not a nation" strawman argument that no one made in the first place, that would be great.

Breten wrote:Your ignorance is blinding you.

This...this is beyond words.
Last edited by North Suran on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:49 am

Interstellar Planets wrote:Devolution of the UK in an increasingly globilising world has always seemed a bit... I don't know, backwards to me, somehow. In an era where individual nations are losing influence in world affairs, chopping up an already-small nation into even smaller bits somehow doesn't seem like progress.


Its decentralisation - a step forwards. Besides, UK isn't a nation it is a multinational state.

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Chumblywumbly
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Founded: Feb 22, 2006
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Postby Chumblywumbly » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:49 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:No it wouldn't. UK Government would still control issues such as defence, foreign affairs, transport, energy grids, etc.

At which point, the UK essentially becomes a night watchman state.

That's rather hyperbolic, no?

Having a centralised state in charge of national infrastructure, international affairs and defence if the realm is hardly Nozick's wet dream.
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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:50 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:You really don't get this.

No, you don't get this, because you apparently have zero reading comprehension.

Breten wrote:One of the arguments FOR England to have its own NATIONAL parliament is that it is a nation, not a region.

Great. Excellent. Fan-fucking-tastic.

It still has literally nothing to do with the points I raised against the creation of an English Parliament. So if you would so kindly get around to addressing those points, rather than attacking an "England is not a nation" strawman argument that no one made in the first place, that would be great.

Breten wrote:Your ignorance is blinding you.

This...this is beyond words.



Seriously, you really don't understand. YOU wrote that England is a region, which is wrong, so I corrected you. Understand yet??

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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:50 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Jesus Christ. One parliament was too many. Now they're multiplying like regionalist rabbits.


This isn't regionalism.

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Chumblywumbly
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Founded: Feb 22, 2006
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Postby Chumblywumbly » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:51 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:This...this is beyond words.

Seriously, you really don't understand.

I think you guys need to devolve from one another.
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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:52 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:No, you don't get this, because you apparently have zero reading comprehension.


Great. Excellent. Fan-fucking-tastic.

It still has literally nothing to do with the points I raised against the creation of an English Parliament. So if you would so kindly get around to addressing those points, rather than attacking an "England is not a nation" strawman argument that no one made in the first place, that would be great.


This...this is beyond words.

Seriously, you really don't understand. YOU wrote that England is a region, which is wrong, so I corrected you. Understand yet??

England is a region and a nation. Furthermore, you still refuse to address my other points in regards to an English Parliament. You've made your point - now answer mine. Because I don't think I can really stand repeating the same thing over and over again for another page.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:53 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:Seriously, you really don't understand. YOU wrote that England is a region, which is wrong, so I corrected you. Understand yet??

England is a region and a nation. Furthermore, you still refuse to address my other points in regards to an English Parliament. You've made your point - now answer mine. Because I don't think I can really stand repeating the same thing over and over again for another page.


As I said before, England is not a region it is a nation, within which there are regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England

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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:54 am

Chumblywumbly wrote:
North Suran wrote:

At which point, the UK essentially becomes a night watchman state.

That's rather hyperbolic, no?

Having a centralised state in charge of national infrastructure, international affairs and defence if the realm is hardly Nozick's wet dream.

It sets the UK on a poor path. Once even the largest constituent nation of the Union has its own parliament, we will simply end up with a situation where more and more powers will be devolved to the national assemblies. This would certainly precipitate the dissolution of the United Kingdom.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:54 am

Perhaps North Suran would care to explain how an English Parliament would make things worse, as he seems to be avoiding the issue.

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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:56 am

North Suran wrote:
Chumblywumbly wrote:That's rather hyperbolic, no?

Having a centralised state in charge of national infrastructure, international affairs and defence if the realm is hardly Nozick's wet dream.

It sets the UK on a poor path. Once even the largest constituent nation of the Union has its own parliament, we will simply end up with a situation where more and more powers will be devolved to the national assemblies. This would certainly precipitate the dissolution of the United Kingdom.


Where's your evidence? If anything, it would lead to more contentment with the Union, as each national parliament would be able to raise its own taxes and not complain about the other, so that point is moot.

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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:56 am

Breten wrote:
North Suran wrote:England is a region and a nation. Furthermore, you still refuse to address my other points in regards to an English Parliament. You've made your point - now answer mine. Because I don't think I can really stand repeating the same thing over and over again for another page.

As I said before, England is not a region it is a nation, within which there are regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England

A region is simply "an extensive, continuous part of a surface, space, or body". England is a region. Scotland is a region. Great Britain is a region. Europe is a region. There can be regions within regions, just as the UK has nations within nations.

But regardless, this still has nothing to do with my opposition to the English Parliament.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:57 am

Breten wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Jesus Christ. One parliament was too many. Now they're multiplying like regionalist rabbits.


This isn't regionalism.


Depends. I view Britain as a nation made up of component regions but I suppose that model may be old hat. Part of me wonders how much support the Scottish, Welsh etc nationalists get out of genuine 'nationalism' versus understandable anger along the lines of "our region has been pissed on by a central government fixated on the City of London and ambivalent, if not hostile, to industry". But you're right, its a central point, and far from just arguing semantics.
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Interstellar Planets
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Postby Interstellar Planets » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:58 am

Breten wrote:
Interstellar Planets wrote:Devolution of the UK in an increasingly globilising world has always seemed a bit... I don't know, backwards to me, somehow. In an era where individual nations are losing influence in world affairs, chopping up an already-small nation into even smaller bits somehow doesn't seem like progress.


Its decentralisation - a step forwards. Besides, UK isn't a nation it is a multinational state.


You can decentralise the powers of the UK government without going around creating parliaments for everybody. The political infrastructure to do so already exists, if our government were prepared to utilise it better.

And yes, the UK is a sovereign entity, with a national government. I don't know about yours, but my passport says I'm a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That's a sovereign country, with a national government and a ridiculously long-winded name, located off the shores of continental Europe. That it was born of a union of disparate countries is beside the point.

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Breten (Ancient)
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Founded: Feb 14, 2011
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Postby Breten (Ancient) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:58 am

North Suran wrote:
Breten wrote:As I said before, England is not a region it is a nation, within which there are regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England

A region is simply "an extensive, continuous part of a surface, space, or body". England is a region. Scotland is a region. Great Britain is a region. Europe is a region. There can be regions within regions, just as the UK has nations within nations.

But regardless, this still has nothing to do with my opposition to the English Parliament.


No, the UK is not a nation. It is a multinational state. As I have said many times, you are not grasping the concepts being discussed.

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Pesda
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Founded: Jun 26, 2010
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Postby Pesda » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:59 am

St George of England wrote:
Banold wrote:I believe that the monarchy should be done away with, Ireland made whole again, and Great Britain be split into 3.

Except Northern Ireland doesn't want to join the morally and financially bankrupt mess to the south, not even a majority of Catholics want to, (it's something like 48% in favor and 40% against joining the south), and opinion polls in Wales show a similar thing, they just do not want to leave the
Union.

In Scotland it's closer, but iirc, opinion polls etc, have repeatedly shown a majority are in favor of remaining in the union.


I agree with Banold. I live in Wales and suport our independence (in the futre, not now). I know that most people want to stay in the union, but you can't argue "the uk shouldn't split up because people don't want to", you should give reasons why the people don't want to.
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North Suran
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Founded: Jul 12, 2009
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Postby North Suran » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:59 am

Breten wrote:Perhaps North Suran would care to explain how an English Parliament would make things worse, as he seems to be avoiding the issue.

Coming from the guy who has literally avoided all my points in favour of screaming "England is a nation" over and over again.

Breten wrote:Where's your evidence?

Historical precedent. In history, complete devolution has always precipitated the collapse of a union. See the Dominions of the British Empire, for example, or the Ausgleich of the Habsburg Empire, or the decentralisation of Yugoslavia, etc etc.
Last edited by North Suran on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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