God and Satan

[JJ Place]

If Satan, who, as I understand, rules, create, and controls all that is evil and is said to be worshiped by various heathen groups and witches, doesn't that make him, more or less, a god himself?

Merriam-Webster's Definition of god-
"a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality "

I'm not a Christian myself, and nor do I believe any part of Christianity, nor any other religion, but this talk of God and Satan reminds me of a particular educational video.

[Minotzia]

I thought Satan represented more of a moral prosecutor and was more or less on good terms with God. Course us Catholics don't see Hell in the fire-y death pit way most Protestants do.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but from what I could tell from the bible God and Satan weren't exactly buddies.

Mainly from the tale of Job.

Either way I don't think that God, being omnipotent, would hate anyone, even someone diametrically opposed to His goals.

[Harata]

Just to expand on my earlier post (sorry to double-post, by the way):

You're not going to Hell because you're a non-Christian. You're going to Hell because you've made a choice to go to Hell (*if* you *are* "going to Hell"). If you're religious in any way, it's entirely possible you will go to Heaven because I know for a fact that salvation is based around repentance of sins, not around which church you attend. God can see into your heart. If God sees that you are repentant, that you want to be with Him, that you love Him, and that you want to obey His laws, I see no reason why you wouldn't go to Heaven.

If you're a Muslim or a Jew - well, I might offend some Christians here, but I have no doubt you would go to Heaven, because we all worship the same God! Allah, YHWH and God are all the same God - that is, the God of Abraham/Ibrahim - so I don't see why there's so much fuss over the difference between us. Really, we're all just different sects of "Abrahamism" or whatever you'd like to call it.

If you're a Buddhist, well, I'm not sure. If you're a Hindu, I think (if the Christian God is real) that you've probably gotten on the wrong boat, so to speak.

If you're an agnostic, then make a choice.

If you're an atheist, then why are you complaining?

It would be nice if you are right, but honestly I doubt it. Honestly, the descriptions of Allah compared with the Christian descriptions of God are often so different that's it's pretty much impossible to believe that they're the same God. Personally, I wish everyone could go to Heaven, since I don't like the idea of people suffering for all eternity, but if that was the case then what would be the point of faith at all? Just a fun thing to do to pass the time on earth?

[Goulart]

[not IC]
If the discussion about "God=Satan?" or similar to it continue with everyone holding their belief,
it WILL lead to nowhere.
let me give you an example:
A: In my belief,...*words*...
B:No, It was supposed to be like ...*words about B's belief's view about satan*...
C:No,It said that in...* words again *...

then

A:"I questioned about your religion."
B:" your religion made no sense in my religion."
C:"flying cookies!!!"

AND no endings until this thread being like,

Z:"urrr...should I argue with them about the view of their belief or should I just answer the topic creator's question? Oh screw it, just ignore it !"

So,why don't we just leave the answer here about topic creator's question and let it sno- no wait, I mean let it go.

[100% IMHO and this is non-belief's view, tell me if its offended you I will edit it and yeah, my English is bad...]

[Harata]

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but from what I could tell from the bible God and Satan weren't exactly buddies.

Mainly from the tale of Job.

Either way I don't think that God, being omnipotent, would hate anyone, even someone diametrically opposed to His goals.

I don't think God hates either. After all, hate is usually directed towards someone you perceive to be a threat, and who could threaten God? That said, I wouldn't say that Satan was on good terms with God. Satan was arrogant and too full of himself and he received his punishment from God. Satan is the Great Deceiver, trying to lure humans away from God, and that doesn't exactly make for a good relationship.

[Harata]

[not IC]
If the discussion about "God=Satan?" or similar to it continue with everyone holding their belief,
it WILL lead to nowhere.
let me give you an example:
A: In my belief,...*words*...
B:No, It was supposed to be like ...*words about B's belief's view about satan*...
C:No,It said that in...* words again *...

then

A:"I questioned about your religion."
B:" your religion made no sense in my religion."
C:"flying cookies!!!"

AND no endings until this thread being like,

Z:"urrr...should I argue with them about the view of their belief or should I just answer the topic creator's question? Oh screw it, just ignore it !"

So,why don't we just leave the answer here about topic creator's question and let it sno- no wait, I mean let it go.

[100% IMHO and this is non-belief's view, tell me if its offended you I will edit it and yeah, my English is bad...]

I think that this discussion has been quite intellectually and spiritually stimulating, and I've enjoyed it. This discussion will end eventually but I intend to enjoy it for now.

[Minotzia]

Mainly from the tale of Job.

Either way I don't think that God, being omnipotent, would hate anyone, even someone diametrically opposed to His goals.

I don't think God hates either. After all, hate is usually directed towards someone you perceive to be a threat, and who could threaten God? That said, I wouldn't say that Satan was on good terms with God. Satan was arrogant and too full of himself and he received his punishment from God. Satan is the Great Deceiver, trying to lure humans away from God, and that doesn't exactly make for a good relationship.

Well I don't think that the Satan that you're talking about is the same one I am. I think there are several different figures mentioned in the Bible who all share that name, so it's hard to be sure which one it's talking about at any one time. I don't really think a "devil" figure has much relevance to the message of Christianity. It seems that it would be impossible for an angel to rebel against God without God intending that event to occur. Same thing pops up with evil, of course, but I think that the only real answer to how this relationship can occur would require omnipotence. Personally I believe that the current universe is the absolute "most good" that can be produced. If there was less evil, there would be less good, and vice versa.

[Harata]

I don't think God hates either. After all, hate is usually directed towards someone you perceive to be a threat, and who could threaten God? That said, I wouldn't say that Satan was on good terms with God. Satan was arrogant and too full of himself and he received his punishment from God. Satan is the Great Deceiver, trying to lure humans away from God, and that doesn't exactly make for a good relationship.

Well I don't think that the Satan that you're talking about is the same one I am. I think there are several different figures mentioned in the Bible who all share that name, so it's hard to be sure which one it's talking about at any one time. I don't really think a "devil" figure has much relevance to the message of Christianity. It seems that it would be impossible for an angel to rebel against God without God intending that event to occur. Same thing pops up with evil, of course, but I think that the only real answer to how this relationship can occur would require omnipotence. Personally I believe that the current universe is the absolute "most good" that can be produced. If there was less evil, there would be less good, and vice versa.

I understand your point, and I believe that a little evil is, perhaps paradoxically, required to keep people good. If there was no evil, how would we know good? Also, I agree that Satan isn't really necessary for Christianity strictly speaking, but I believe that Satan could rebel on his own. I believe that humans have free will, and I think that that would extend to the angels. The angels aren't perfect, so an attempted rebellion could occur. Of course, God can't be beat (literally), but then again arrogance can often overshadow common sense.

[Minotzia]

Well I don't think that the Satan that you're talking about is the same one I am. I think there are several different figures mentioned in the Bible who all share that name, so it's hard to be sure which one it's talking about at any one time. I don't really think a "devil" figure has much relevance to the message of Christianity. It seems that it would be impossible for an angel to rebel against God without God intending that event to occur. Same thing pops up with evil, of course, but I think that the only real answer to how this relationship can occur would require omnipotence. Personally I believe that the current universe is the absolute "most good" that can be produced. If there was less evil, there would be less good, and vice versa.

I understand your point, and I believe that a little evil is, perhaps paradoxically, required to keep people good. If there was no evil, how would we know good? Also, I agree that Satan isn't really necessary for Christianity strictly speaking, but I believe that Satan could rebel on his own. I believe that humans have free will, and I think that that would extend to the angels. The angels aren't perfect, so an attempted rebellion could occur. Of course, God can't be beat (literally), but then again arrogance can often overshadow common sense.

I thought God created angels to be perfect servants..? Free will exists in that we can do whatever we want, but since our actions are already known to God, and God has set the course for the end of the universe, they are already present. But for all practical purposes free will exists because we can't ever access knowledge of our future.

[Big Jim P]

In the mythology, Satan was cast out of Heaven for the "sin" of pride. One of the reasons modern Satanists have taken the Image/archetype of Satan as their own. We are outcasts, and proud of it.

[Cameroi]

god, and satan, are both simply names, invented by humans, for things they know nothing about.
while it stands to reason there is just as much that is bigger then ourselves as there is that is smaller.
and likewise that there is, or may be, just as much that is invisible as can be seen.
and that, given the above, there would be an invisible thing that is bigger then all other invisible things,
and possibly, even probably, bigger then all other things.
that thing has been given a name, which is what we call god.

as for evil and good, these are merely the causing, willfully, of needless suffering and harm, and the avoidance of doing so respectively.

there is neither a 'god of evil', nor need for there to be.
christianity (and islam) describe god in ways that are equal to a psychotic spoiled brat.
there is nothing observable in the real universe to require any such thing, that might be called a god, to resemble anything of the sort.

as for invisible beings, great or small, wishing to cause harm or suffering of living persons, organizations, and societies; ask yourself what motivation, what there could possibly be to be gained by them, for doing so.

rather, the far greater likelihood, is that the vast majority of invisible beings, great and small, have no more idea of our existence then we have of theirs, and that those who do, are no better nor worse as potential friends, then the kinds of visible people we run into every day,

it is also somewhat unclear, as to just how much any invisible awairness has to DO with, the kind of world we all live in, and shape statistically ourselves, by what is important to each of us, every day.

so i regard god, as a generic term, for something that exists, but is completely unknown and unknowable, and satan as something people have made up for reasons entirely of their own.

nor is there any such law of balance in the observable universe. but rather such a degree of diversity, as to get around to everything, so as to make it appear perhaps, as if there might be.

[Zetion]

Satan is what we call god when he throws a bitch-fit.

[Ashmoria]

If Satan, who, as I understand, rules, create, and controls all that is evil and is said to be worshiped by various heathen groups and witches, doesn't that make him, more or less, a god himself?

Merriam-Webster's Definition of god-
"a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality "

yes

but the trinity makes christianity a kind of polytheism too.

so lets not destroy anyone's illusions, ok?

[Georgism]

They're the same thing.

[Innsmothe]

There is no Satan, just another section of the ego that is the christian Death-god Jehovah.

[Sirians]

Satan, in a way of saying, is yet one of Dark Deities, aspects of the Dark Lord who is beyond mortal understanding.

[Feral Land]

Actually the bible doesn't say there is only one god, but the god of Abraham is a jealous god and commands his followers to worship no other god but him, and apparently god doesn't like the paparazzi -- no pictures or images - graven or otherwise.

As for Satan...nope he isn't a god, but an angel, I think the debate on whether he is an enemy of god or a servant of god (responsible for punishing sinners) is still open as far as I am concerned.

Frankly I believe that organized religion be it Judaism, christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc... is the work of the devil...when you think of the atrocities committed by organized religion in the name of their god/s how else would you explain it?

And yet I still believe in "god" or more accurately a creator, but in a very UNORGANIZED way.

[Unhealthy2]

but if that was the case then what would be the point of faith at all?

I have a hard time grasping what the point of faith is regardless of the metaphysics of the afterlife. Why is god's sole concern whether or not we believe in him in the absence of any evidence? He doesn't care about goodness. He doesn't care about accomplishments. He doesn't care about how many lives you change for the better. All he cares about is whether or not you accept a certain set of propositions in the complete absence of evidence. Furthermore, you must also guess the correct set of propositions to believe in without evidence. And yes, with no evidence at all, it is very much just a guess. Islam is a guess. Christianity is a guess. If you choose the wrong set of propositions to believe in, you're fucked. Oops, sorry, Zoroastrianism was the incorrect guess, you go to hell. There's nothing in any of this that presents a reliable test of how much someone deserves heaven and hell, and thus nothing in this that can be even remotely referred to as "justice."

[Uhriventis]

I must let it be known that the best way of understanding what I believe as of late (because on this subject it does change as I age and get wiser.) Is two Mark Twain books, Letters From The Earth and of course The Mysterious Stranger. You can read them free online as no one owns his rights since his publications are so old. Satan has been misunderstood.

[Unhealthy2]

Completely and utterly wrong. God doesn't want people to be punished, he wants them to be in Heaven with Him. That's why he sent Jesus (or Muhammad or whoever you want to believe in), so that humanity could be saved from their sins and go to Heaven. Hell is not a "lake of burning fire" in the literal sense - it is merely a place completely devoid of God (and, therefore, completely devoid of joy, happiness, goodness, and life). Although I'd rather be in a lake of burning fire for all eternity than in such a place as Hell!

Another strange proposition of Christian religion, how does sending an innocent person to suffer and die allow god to forgive us in a way that he couldn't have done prior to the aforementioned sacrifice? How is mankind redeemed by the death of an innocent person? How does that even begin to make sense? If god wants to forgive us, why can't he just snap his fingers and forgive us? What's with the pointless gesture of killing himself in corporeal form?

[Al-Harakut al-Islami]

No. Satan has no power -- he can merely tempt.
At least, that's the case in Islam ^-^

[Unhealthy2]

From a purely rational perspective, yes. However, faith requires something else, the "leap to faith" that Soren Kierkegaard talked about. Purely rational thought is not enough, though if you open yourself up to faith I believe that you can find the truth, or the best truth that humans can understand.

And how do you know what to have faith in? By its very nature, faith is based in the lack of knowledge. Thus, it's an unreliable way to get at truth, because there are an infinite number of things you could have faith in, but the overwhelming majority will be false. Faith only leads to truth if you start out with faith in the correct thing to begin with. Thus, it only "leads" you to truth if you're already there from the start.

[Ashmoria]

Completely and utterly wrong. God doesn't want people to be punished, he wants them to be in Heaven with Him. That's why he sent Jesus (or Muhammad or whoever you want to believe in), so that humanity could be saved from their sins and go to Heaven. Hell is not a "lake of burning fire" in the literal sense - it is merely a place completely devoid of God (and, therefore, completely devoid of joy, happiness, goodness, and life). Although I'd rather be in a lake of burning fire for all eternity than in such a place as Hell!

Another strange proposition of Christian religion, how does sending an innocent person to suffer and die allow god to forgive us in a way that he couldn't have done prior to the aforementioned sacrifice? How is mankind redeemed by the death of an innocent person? How does that even begin to make sense? If god wants to forgive us, why can't he just snap his fingers and forgive us? What's with the pointless gesture of killing himself in corporeal form?

its theology. its not supposed to make literal sense

after all god sent HIMSELF to live and die as a human.

[Unhealthy2]

What, may I ask, brought you to that conclusion?

Simple:

1) It is logically possible for there to be no god, thus, all arguments for the existence of god that are based on pure reason must be invalid. Thus, because god is not logically necessary, we must support the proposition of god's existence with evidence outside of the realm of pure reason.

2) Outside of the realm of pure reason, there is no evidence for god. Hence, it is not logical to believe in god, as there are an infinite number of other possibilities that you could believe in place of god and, given the utter lack of evidence, all of those other possibilities are just as likely as god. Ergo, in the complete absence of evidence, belief in god is irrational. You can believe in god if you want to, but I will have a philosophical problem with that. No, I won't hate or even dislike you, nor will I think you a bad person. However, I will have a philosophical problem with you believing in god.

3) I won't get into it here in this post, as it's far too complicated, but not only is there no positive evidence to support the existence of god, there's plenty of reason to think that god does not exist, such as the highly contingent nature of consciousness, and the complexity problem.

Note: If we ever get positive evidence for god, it will become rational to accept the existence of god. However, this is exceptionally unlikely to happen.

[Unhealthy2]

its theology. its not supposed to make literal sense

Are you sure that theology isn't supposed to make sense? I always thought that it was supposed to make sense, but that it simply failed at it.