Constantinople or Istanbul what do you call it?

[Farnhamia]

Really, the place has always been called Constantinople after its true Roman founder.....Stamboul, or 'Istanbul' in modern Turkic language, was really just a local term used to refer to Constantinople until the 1920's.

I was brought up with the term 'Constantinople', never 'Istanbul' because I had a history teacher with a relative who had always called it that before they changed it to 'Istanbul'.

Lots of Europeans and Westerners still called it Constantinople for the entirety of the 1920's and into the 1930's. Even Robert Ripley did when he referred to the city (If I'm not mistaken, shortly after they officially changed the name). I think the change happened in 1936 or so. A lot of Westerners liked going there, and had to learn to say 'Istanbul' and got that stamped on their passports and suitcases. Plus, it started being in print a lot more (newspapers, magazines, media, etc.)

Anyway, Constantinople rightfully and originally belonged to the Greeks up until 1900 or so, I would say. They lost their last chance in the 1800's to seize back for themselves, so now I will say it's a thoroughly and rightfully Turkish possession. The people there have been mainly Turks for so long it would be impossible to restore it to Greek control.

If you look up "Istanbul" in Wiki, there's a good discussion of the origin of the name.

As for "rightfully and originally" belonging to the Greeks, when someone surrounds your city and bashes big holes in the walls and kills your Emperor in the final assault, they kind of get possession rights.

[Farnhamia]

If you look up "Istanbul" in Wiki, there's a good discussion of the origin of the name.

As for "rightfully and originally" belonging to the Greeks, when someone surrounds your city and bashes big holes in the walls and kills your Emperor in the final assault, they kind of get possession rights.

I think there should be a Mulligan if you held them off for 800 years. And for that last siege someone forgot to lock the door.

I think the mulligan would be cancelled by leaving the door open.

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

I thought that 19 people voted for Istanbul in the poll. How did it get back to 18? And I didn't allow re-voting!

[United Mercenary Firms]

I think there should be a Mulligan if you held them off for 800 years. And for that last siege someone forgot to lock the door.

I think the mulligan would be cancelled by leaving the door open.

That door could have been secured if the Venetian commander had not deserted the Byzantines at that moment.

I read somewhere that the Byzantines were prepared to surround and destroy the few Janissaries inside the forgotten sally-port and lock it back again, but at that moment were thrown into confusion by their Genoese and Venetian allies fleeing the battlefield. Since most of the soldiers at that gate were Genoese, they fled their posts as well with their other countrymen and doomed the city.

[Nova Zaporozhia]

Being of Greek ancestry....Costantinople. But I accept the fact that the place is Turkish.......For now

[Farnhamia]

I think the mulligan would be cancelled by leaving the door open.

That door could have been secured if the Venetian commander had not deserted the Byzantines at that moment.

I read somewhere that the Byzantines were prepared to surround and destroy the few Janissaries inside the forgotten sally-port and lock it back again, but at that moment were thrown into confusion by their Genoese and Venetian allies fleeing the battlefield. Since most of the soldiers at that gate were Genoese, they fled their posts as well with their other countrymen and doomed the city.

Actually, there was no unguarded gate. The Blacharnae section had been damaged in 1204 and not rebuilt well. They were further damaged during the siege. The Genoese did panic and withdraw, but not from cowardice per se. Their commander had been mortally wounded and the panic started when he was taken from the walls. This was common with medieval armies, unfortunately, and not because they were "cowardly Italians." Even if none of this were true, I doubt the City could have held out another month, if that.

[Osthia]

I call it Constantinople some of the time, merely because I feel that it still has a strong Christian heritage, despite its, with lack of a proper word, Islamification. Of course, in a political situation, one should call it Istanbul so as not to upset the Turks.

[RomeW]

I think the mulligan would be cancelled by leaving the door open.

That door could have been secured if the Venetian commander had not deserted the Byzantines at that moment.

I read somewhere that the Byzantines were prepared to surround and destroy the few Janissaries inside the forgotten sally-port and lock it back again, but at that moment were thrown into confusion by their Genoese and Venetian allies fleeing the battlefield. Since most of the soldiers at that gate were Genoese, they fled their posts as well with their other countrymen and doomed the city.

My understanding is that the "unlocked gate" story is a fabrication- Doukas is the only historian that mentions it and there's no archeological evidence to support that the door was in fact unlocked. It's likely Doukas just wanted a reason how the previously impenetrable walls of Constantinople could have been breached, and it looks better for the wall's prestige to blame some idiot than to admit that the Ottomans really did find a way through.

[Farnhamia]

I call it Constantinople some of the time, merely because I feel that it still has a strong Christian heritage, despite its, with lack of a proper word, Islamification. Of course, in a political situation, one should call it Istanbul so as not to upset the Turks.

Heritage, maybe, but there are fewer than 100,000 Christians living there, out of a population of 13,000,000.

[United Mercenary Firms]

The Venetian commander was not mortally wounded. He was struck in the breastplate, which absorbed most of the blow from a Turkish bullet, or in the hand or foot by a crossbow bolt. Greek and Italian accounts vary on that, but they all agree on one thing: The wound was not serious at the time. It seems that it got infected when he was trying to escape by ship to one of the Greek Isles.

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI took a close examination of his injury and determined it was not a lethal one, and he should not desert his post at so crucial a moment. The Italian never responded, but went away complaining to those around him he was in great pain and wanted his wound dressed. His bodyguards threw open the gate into the inner wall, and carried him through the city to the docks, where they put him on a ship and escaped. The gate was shortly jammed with the Venetians and Genoese trying to escape as more and more Janissaries fell on them. The Byzantines did not flee with the Italians, but the weight of Turkish numbers threw them back from the wall and they were now too few to push the Janissaries away from the unlocked gate.

Many of these brave Greek soldiers resisted until they were captured or slain; most of them fell into pits and a ditch between the inner and outer walls of the city, and unable to clamber out, were set upon by Turkish sharpshooters and massacred. It was at this point the slaughter proved too great, and though some fierce fighting continued with the Catalans, the Venetians at the Imperial Palace, and the Greeks elsewhere, most of the Byzantines ran home to defend their families from the Turkish forces now looting the city.

[Farnhamia]

The Venetian commander was not mortally wounded. He was struck in the breastplate, which absorbed most of the blow from a Turkish bullet, or in the hand or foot by a crossbow bolt. Greek and Italian accounts vary on that, but they all agree on one thing: The wound was not serious at the time. It seems that it got infected when he was trying to escape by ship to one of the Greek Isles.

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI took a close examination of his injury and determined it was not a lethal one, and he should not desert his post at so crucial a moment. The Italian never responded, but went away complaining to those around him he was in great pain and wanted his wound dressed. His bodyguards threw open the gate into the inner wall, and carried him through the city to the docks, where they put him on a ship and escaped. The gate was shortly jammed with the Venetians and Genoese trying to escape as more and more Janissaries fell on them. The Byzantines did not flee with the Italians, but the weight of Turkish numbers threw them back from the wall and they were now too few to push the Janissaries away from the unlocked gate.

Many of these brave Greek soldiers resisted until they were captured or slain; most of them fell into pits and a ditch between the inner and outer walls of the city, and unable to clamber out, were set upon by Turkish sharpshooters and massacred. It was at this point the slaughter proved too great, and though some fierce fighting continued with the Catalans, the Venetians at the Imperial Palace, and the Greeks elsewhere, most of the Byzantines ran home to defend their families from the Turkish forces now looting the city.

That depends on who you read, now doesn't it? I'm not excusing the panic but I've not ever read that Giovanni Giustiniani was malingering.

[Rokartian States]

I call it by its name: Istanbul. I don't call Europe the French Empire or Argentina the Río de la Plata.

[United Mercenary Firms]

Let's see. I've read Gibbon's works on the Roman Empire, as well as C. Mijatovich's biography of Emperor Constantine XI. I've also studied the Fall of Constantinople by Sir Stephen Runcilman (?).

Most of my knowledge of Byzantine history, however, comes from the Destruction of the Greek Empire, which I recommend as the single best and most detailed book I have ever read on late-period Byzantine history and the political situation of the Balkans from 1204-1453.

I believe C. Mijatovich was the one who stressed that the Venetian Giustiniani was not mortally wounded.

[Farnhamia]

Let's see. I've read Gibbon's works on the Roman Empire, as well as C. Mijatovich's biography of Emperor Constantine XI. I've also studied the Fall of Constantinople by Sir Stephen Runcilman (?).

Most of my knowledge of Byzantine history, however, comes from the Destruction of the Greek Empire, which I recommend as the single best and most detailed book I have ever read on late-period Byzantine history and the political situation of the Balkans from 1204-1453.

I believe C. Mijatovich was the one who stressed that the Venetian Giustiniani was not mortally wounded.

Funny, because Sir Edwin Pears writes, in the book you recommend so highly ...

Meantime in the Enclosure in the Lycus valley the straggle was heing bravely fought out with pikes, axes, javelins, long lances and swords, for now, as Critobulus is careful to inform us, 'the fight was hand-to-hand.' The obstinate resistance of the little band of Greeks and Italians appears to have met with some success. The attack by the Janissaries and the rest of the sultan's own division had so far failed and was weakening.

It was at this moment that one of those fateful accidents occurred which have at times decided the destiny of nations, wounded. John Justiniani, who under the emperor was in supreme command, was severely wounded. He bled profusely, and determined to leave his command in order to obtain medical aid. The wound was so severe that it proved mortal within a few days. But those present did not recognise its gravity. Some of his contemporaries deny that it was sufficiently grave to justify his leaving the field, but Critobulus, writing some years afterwards, states that he had to be carried away. Leonard and Phrantzes say that when the emperor was informed of his determination to enter the city, Constantine besought and implored him not to do so but to return to his post, endeavouring to persuade him that the wound was slight and pointing out that his departure would demoralise not only his own men but the Greeks, and strongly urged that the fate of the city depended on his remaining. Justiniani, however, pleaded the pain of his wound, demanded that the key of the gate leading into the city should be given to his men, and insisted upon leaving the Peribolos or Enclosure, promising to return when his wound had been attended to. The keys of a small gate which Justiniani had caused to be opened in the Inner Wall to give easier access to the Enclosure behind the stockade were brought and he entered the city.

That's on page 345 of the on-line version I found. As I said, it depends whom you read.

Oh, and Sir Edwin's book is from 1903, Mijatovich's from the 1890's. Only Runciman's is even close to modern, and it dates from 1965. I wouldn't mind seeing more more recent scholarship on the matter.

[Pokemonman]

I call it Istanbul.

[Hathradic States]

All of the above, depending on who I am talking to.

[Albaron]

It would of course depend on the period of history we are discussing. Present day, I would definitely say Istanbul.
In a historical context, the other two would be used appropriately.

[Eliasonia]

I call it Constantinople for the sake of being annoying. You wouldn't believe how many people ask me "What's that?"

Plus I'm Greek so I kinda have to.

[Australien]

Istanbul, because that's what it's called. Doesn't really matter why it's called that, the fact is that is what it's called.

[Vragovia]

I call it Tsarigrad (City of the Tsar). It's a bit archaic but still used by a lot of slavic peoples.

[Malkuth Dei]

Occupied territory since 1453...

[Nobel Hobos]

Constantinople.

I will not accept Muslims rulership of the Second Rome. Orthodoxy will reconquer their holy land and reinstate the Greek patriarchy.

Those Muslims are holding Eastern Orthodoxy back from it's sacred greek heritage: bumsex with little boys. Damn Catholics gettin' it all ...

[Nobel Hobos]

Plus I'm Greek so I kinda have to.

Oops, didn't see you there. No offence OK, the butt of my joke was Catholics really ...

Hope I didn't just make it worse.

[Eliasonia]

Plus I'm Greek so I kinda have to.

Oops, didn't see you there. No offence OK, the butt of my joke was Catholics really ...

Hope I didn't just make it worse.

It's fine lol, I don't really care.

[Nobel Hobos]

I call it Constantinople because...coming from a Greek family, you kind of have to...

I call it Istanbul. Because that's its name now. I also call "Burma" Myanmar ... because political disagreements are no reason to call names. A name is what the owner chooses, and it's just plain insulting to call it anything else.

I was friends with a girl from a Greek family (both parents born in Greece) when I was at university. She was hugely open-minded and tolerant on almost every subject, but outright racist about Italians. You couldn't mention anything more Italian than "spaghetti" without her going into a rant about "they stole our civilization and our gods and ... and ..."

Something called Greek School is to blame, I'm pretty sure. I didn't ask too many questions about that though.