Ron Pauls economic solution? A Southern Secessionist.

[Cameroi]

i would hazard a guess a good many young'ns on here, are unfamiliar with the several major economic depressions that took place in the NINETEENTH century.
paper is paper and unstable sure, but so are precious metals, just at usually a slower rate, or stable only by comparison with paper.
economics is a myth though, as long as it is limited to concepts of monetarism. that's the problem. we have something self serving that thinks its everything, that by its own claim, is connected to nothing.

[Bottle]

Here's what I think:

Ron Paul and the Tea Baggers and all the other vehemently "libertarian" sorts should be given their own little country. I think we should give them Alaska. It's separate from the rest of the USA, and, more importantly, it's rich in oil reserves. This way, when their economy collapses and their country is plunged into turmoil in 10 years, the USA can helpfully invade to "liberate" and "rebuild" Alaska! Everybody wins!

[Mosasauria]

Here's what I think:

Ron Paul and the Tea Baggers and all the other vehemently "libertarian" sorts should be given their own little country. I think we should give them Alaska. It's separate from the rest of the USA, and, more importantly, it's rich in oil reserves. This way, when their economy collapses and their country is plunged into turmoil in 10 years, the USA can helpfully invade to "liberate" and "rebuild" Alaska! Everybody wins!

Power to the People!

[Cameroi]

Here's what I think:

Ron Paul and the Tea Baggers and all the other vehemently "libertarian" sorts should be given their own little country. I think we should give them Alaska. It's separate from the rest of the USA, and, more importantly, it's rich in oil reserves. This way, when their economy collapses and their country is plunged into turmoil in 10 years, the USA can helpfully invade to "liberate" and "rebuild" Alaska! Everybody wins!

gotta grin and call that a win

[Ashmoria]

Did anyone bother to check the source of this article? Or how about the unprofessional bit of "journalism".
Political opinions - right or left - sicken me when coming from journalists.

.... and if you want to know my angle... I've shaken hands with Ron Paul, gained alot of insight from his work and beliefs, and voted for President Obama whom I also greatly respect...

are you trying to suggest that the guy didnt testify or that he didnt write what he wrote?

[Ashmoria]

i would hazard a guess a good many young'ns on here, are unfamiliar with the several major economic depressions that took place in the NINETEENTH century.
paper is paper and unstable sure, but so are precious metals, just at usually a slower rate, or stable only by comparison with paper.
economics is a myth though, as long as it is limited to concepts of monetarism. that's the problem. we have something self serving that thinks its everything, that by its own claim, is connected to nothing.

its a tad alarming that the republicans arent even OK with taking us back to the 20th century. they want to drag us all back to the 19th.

[Nazis in Space]

[*] Demand for gold is, to 90%, based on its shinyness (The rest is its use in electronics). This is because something just being scarce doesn't make it valuable - it has to be scarce and desirable. And the most desirable aspect of gold happens to be its shinyness. For comparison purposes - Rhenium has 1/5 the abundance of gold, yet costs less than a seventh per mass unit. If your delusions were correct, it'd have to cost five times more - it doesn't.

:palm:

{<snip> of examples mostly concerning shiny>]

I think you get the point. Far from being valuable because of it's "shine," gold is a highly valuable commodity b/c it is one of the most stable of elements in existence and it has the added benefit of being malleable, edible, and dense. It has been a historical store of wealth throughout the centuries. It is easily recognized and is instantly valuable to anyone who sees it, making it a perfect commodity for trade. Fiat currency is maintained only through gov't coercion (legal tender laws).

Distribution of gold use:

• 85% Shiny (Jewelry etc)
• 12% Industrial
• 3% Investment

Okay. I got it wrong by circa 5%. You got it wrong, uhm, entirely so.

Incidentally, no. The value of gold is not immediately recognizeable to anyone. The Aztecs for example, valued their gold rather less than pretty things made from prtety coloured feathers. The egyptians were happy to throw gold away in exchange for a bit of iron (The hittites refused, determining that their iron was more valuable than gold). Plenty of countries did historically opt for silver instead of gold as the basis for their currency - copper and bronze, too, were popular. For that matter, so were the very pretty, very big stones I linked in my previous post. So were clam shells.

[*] The price of gold is therefore variable like everything else, too. Indeed, in the past forty years, it's varied by a factor of three - its high point was thrice the value of the low point.

You are mistaking price for value. Of course the price of gold goes up and down. The flood of fiat currency in the marketplace is directly linked to this trend in prices.

While there are indeed (Marxist) concepts of economics that differ between value and price, this does unfortunately not help you - the argument was specifically that the price of gold remains stable - which it has to be if it's supposed to prevent inflation. It's the value expressed as a price that matters - just as it's your value as a potential employee that defines your value on the labour market. Your value as, I don't know, a human being, a soul or whatever is as irrelevant as the 'Value' of gold as a particularly a-reactionary element on the periodic table.

You're also not getting that you can replace gold with absolutely everything else imaginable - and get exactly the same argument and result. Hence the example of the raj stones you saw fit not to quote.

It gets worse - okay, lets call it price instead of value. This changes... Exactly nothing whatsoever. You changed the vocabulary, not the facts. Well, congrats.

[*] The amount of gold is finite; Thus, if a currency is gold-backed, so is the volume of monetary transactions that is possible. Needless to say, this fucks with economics somewhat badly.

Which is precisely why Ron Paul argues for (surprise surprise) not a Gold Standard but abolition of legal tender laws. He thinks the market will best decide which currency to use. He admits that if the gov't will not relinquish the power of the purse, then a standard is preferable to fiat currency, but he acknowledges that this would send shock waves through our fiat addicted economy. He, and any number of gold standard economists would hasten to point out that these market fluctuations are necessary to provide a healthy infrastructure to the economy. A stable gold back currency makes market wide panics and collapses obsolete.

The bolded parts being where he's wrong, for reasons already mentioned.

[*] This is a problem since the total value of all gold on Earth is presently rather less than six trillion USD. The total global GDP - that's only newly generated wealth, not already extant wealth - is well over an order of magnitude greater.
[*] Thus, for gold to actually back all of this up, its value would've to increase by over one (Over three or four, actually, if we count total accumulated, rather than total annually generated wealth) order of magnitude - increasing its pricetag times ten (Thousand or ten-thousand, realistically speaking).
[*] This is a disconnect between the actual demand for gold, and its supposed value. This is a bit of a problem.

And why is it that the economy of America, and of the various european nations, grew the fastest, at the most stable rate, and to the greatest height under gold standards? Why is it that with the introduction of a central bank, America's entire economy collapsed within a generation? What market wide fluctuations occurred before then in America?

Because you're imagining it. Incidentally, notice how Jackson fucking with the central bank made mattters worse? You do, admittedly, have a point that American monetary policies did do their share in making the great depression worse - how did that happen? Oh, the global debt to the US considerably exceeded the global gold reserves. So, when America demanded all its debts being paid back in gold... Oh, wait, that's an argument against the gold standard.

Golds value remains constant. Its price, however, varies quite a bit. Why would you suppose that all market participants seem to flee to Gold, Silver, and other commodities when the market begins to slide? I mean, if gold standards are so horrible an idea... then why does the public, in every single country around the world that allows access, flee to gold?

It, err, doesn't. The relevant participants don't invest in gold, they invest in capital - you know, means of production. Now, granted, there is the odd idiot who invests in gold. Well... I've my reasons to call them idiots. And even ignoring scams of the linked nature, you're killing your own argument - if the price of gold varies, then it can (And does) vary downward. So, you try to avoid losing money by investing in gold... And if the gold price drops, you just lost a hell of a lot of money.

That's not very bright, all things considered.

Incidentally, would you care to explain the difference between value and price to me? It seems to be very important to you, for reasons I can, frankly, not really divine. What is this 'Unchanging' value? The things one can make with gold? If yes, then this... Doesn't matter. At all. Look at how dirt-cheap, say, iron is - yet, its utility value is orders of magnitude greater than that of gold.

We're not talking about a bunch of savages debating the value of things for their survival (Gold? Zero). We're talking about the utility of gold as a means for determining the price - I'd have written value, but you'd missunderstand that - of money. As mentioned earlier, the 'Innate Value' of gold matters to this no more than your 'Innate Value' as a human being. Nevermind the 'Innate Value' - utility - of gold being so staggeringly low compared to things like iron, wood, food, land...

Though I'll grant you that the low utility of gold for things that actually matter is a pretty good thing - the higher the actual utility of a given something, the more of a waste it is to simply hoard it. Of course, this goes counter to your rather impractical argument that high utility somehow makes things a useful determinant for the price/ value of money. But eh.

[The Black Forrest]

i would hazard a guess a good many young'ns on here, are unfamiliar with the several major economic depressions that took place in the NINETEENTH century.
paper is paper and unstable sure, but so are precious metals, just at usually a slower rate, or stable only by comparison with paper.
economics is a myth though, as long as it is limited to concepts of monetarism. that's the problem. we have something self serving that thinks its everything, that by its own claim, is connected to nothing.

its a tad alarming that the republicans arent even OK with taking us back to the 20th century. they want to drag us all back to the 19th.

No really. You silly broads knew your places in that good century.

If you all went back to the kitchen then we would greatly reduce the employment numbers!

[The Black Forrest]

Here's what I think:

Ron Paul and the Tea Baggers and all the other vehemently "libertarian" sorts should be given their own little country. I think we should give them Alaska. It's separate from the rest of the USA, and, more importantly, it's rich in oil reserves. This way, when their economy collapses and their country is plunged into turmoil in 10 years, the USA can helpfully invade to "liberate" and "rebuild" Alaska! Everybody wins!

gotta grin and call that a win

Indeed!

Run for office Bottle; I will vote for you.

[Sociobiology]

its a tad alarming that the republicans arent even OK with taking us back to the 20th century. they want to drag us all back to the 19th.

No really. You silly broads knew your places in that good century.

If you all went back to the kitchen then we would greatly reduce the employment numbers!

then the total workforce would decrease taking national production and wealth down with it.

[Ashmoria]

its a tad alarming that the republicans arent even OK with taking us back to the 20th century. they want to drag us all back to the 19th.

No really. You silly broads knew your places in that good century.

If you all went back to the kitchen then we would greatly reduce the employment numbers!

fine but none of us know how to cook on a wood stove.

[Sociobiology]

I predict two possible outcomes of the south seceding,
1. through corporate and farm welfare, and a lack of social safety nets, combined with an ineffective regulatory system the new country will degrade and eventually collapse into second or even third world status. eventually through desperation they will beg to let back into the union, costing far more money to fix than they would have if they had not trashed their infrastructure, health, and economic power.

2. the large population centers will grow and become more rational eventually exerting the same level of influence as northern states over the current US leaving two identical smaller countries with less overall economic or social influence.

[The Black Forrest]

No really. You silly broads knew your places in that good century.

If you all went back to the kitchen then we would greatly reduce the employment numbers!

fine but none of us know how to cook on a wood stove.

Oh the lash will make you learn quick woman!

[Sociobiology]

No really. You silly broads knew your places in that good century.

If you all went back to the kitchen then we would greatly reduce the employment numbers!

fine but none of us know how to cook on a wood stove.

I do, you quickly learn how to use even the most outdated equipment in my line of work.
I also know how to start naked in the wilderness with and eventually make real bread(unleavened), still haven't got the hang of leavened bread

[Ashmoria]

fine but none of us know how to cook on a wood stove.

I do, you quickly learn how to use even the most outdated equipment in my line of work.
I also know how to start naked in the wilderness with and eventually make real bread(unleavened), still haven't got the hang of leavened bread

what is your line of work?

[The Black Forrest]

I do, you quickly learn how to use even the most outdated equipment in my line of work.
I also know how to start naked in the wilderness with and eventually make real bread(unleavened), still haven't got the hang of leavened bread

what is your line of work?

I was about to ask the same.......

[Ashmoria]

what is your line of work?

I was about to ask the same.......

anyway....about that lash thing.... it seems that no one of the current generation knows how to do anything but cook out of a box. (or order out) its a big step to go from "warming things up in the microwave" to "making biscuits in a hot oven".

[The Black Forrest]

I was about to ask the same.......

anyway....about that lash thing.... it seems that no one of the current generation knows how to do anything but cook out of a box. (or order out) its a big step to go from "warming things up in the microwave" to "making biscuits in a hot oven".

Ohhhhhhh I understand you now. I am sheltered as my wife is Italian so fresh cooking is all I get.

I would agree as I see many women at the stores with the pre-made stuff rather then buying the ingredients. My daughter will know how to cook as my wife will see to it(I teach her things as well).....

[Kazomal]

Actually, if our money were based on gold or silver then the unit of measurement would be objective and standard. Meaning the value of a dollar would be it's weight in gold, which is actually what the word dollar means.

Most commodities on Earth are subject to human whim and fancies. Gold is a rare mineral in that it has value based on it's very rarity and scarcity. It's value is based on the physical amount located here on planet Earth. Not whether it's shiny and pretty.

No human can increase the amount of physical Au lying around. It's literally physically aside from human emotions. That's why it's value is innate and intrinsic.



Yes, precisely. It's the government's job to govern. Not run someone's business for them.

If people aren't smart enough to be informed consumers of products, then shame on them. People have the right to be self determined and if they're uninformed then that's one's choice.

I choose everyday not to eat garbage which is labelled food. I don't put the poison of alcohol or recreational street drugs into my body. I should be the person who makes decisions about me. I surely don't desire to make decisions about you.

the government should take the same position on the economy as it does with religion here in the US, and that is: KEEP OUT.

Bullplop. Without health and safety regulations, what's to stop a company from having rat shit in their product without printing that on the label? Nothing. And you end up eating rat shit. History had shown this time and time again.

Without regulation, abuses DO run rampant.

Equating regulation with "telling someone how to run their business" is the same as equating outlawing assault, theft, murder, etc, with "telling people how to live their lives."

[Ashmoria]

anyway....about that lash thing.... it seems that no one of the current generation knows how to do anything but cook out of a box. (or order out) its a big step to go from "warming things up in the microwave" to "making biscuits in a hot oven".

Ohhhhhhh I understand you now. I am sheltered as my wife is Italian so fresh cooking is all I get.

I would agree as I see many women at the stores with the pre-made stuff rather then buying the ingredients. My daughter will know how to cook as my wife will see to it(I teach her things as well).....

better make sure any sons do too. just in case they dont marry an italian girl.

[Sociobiology]

I do, you quickly learn how to use even the most outdated equipment in my line of work.
I also know how to start naked in the wilderness with and eventually make real bread(unleavened), still haven't got the hang of leavened bread

what is your line of work?

Paleontology, pick the most desolate, inhospitably places on earth, now go live there for six months while spending most of your time trying to dig delicate heavy objects out of the ground, all with little or no funding.
my crazy father (survivalist) did more than he could possibly imagine to prepare me for this.

[Ashmoria]

what is your line of work?

Paleontology, pick the most desolate, inhospitably places on earth, now go live there for six months while spending most of your time trying to dig delicate heavy objects out of the ground, all with little or no funding.
my crazy father (survivalist) did more than he could possibly imagine to prepare me for this.

well i hope you dont often find yourself naked, searching for unharvested wheat berries.

[Sociobiology]

Yes, it does.

Actually, if our money were based on gold or silver then the unit of measurement would be objective and standard. Meaning the value of a dollar would be it's weight in gold, which is actually what the word dollar means.

Most commodities on Earth are subject to human whim and fancies. Gold is a rare mineral in that it has value based on it's very rarity and scarcity. It's value is based on the physical amount located here on planet Earth. Not whether it's shiny and pretty.

No human can increase the amount of physical Au lying around. It's literally physically aside from human emotions. That's why it's value is innate and intrinsic.

Damn regulations! How dare the government set standards for safe food, drugs and work environments.......

Yes, precisely. It's the government's job to govern. Not run someone's business for them.

If people aren't smart enough to be informed consumers of products, then shame on them. People have the right to be self determined and if they're uninformed then that's one's choice.

I choose everyday not to eat garbage which is labelled food. I don't put the poison of alcohol or recreational street drugs into my body. I should be the person who makes decisions about me. I surely don't desire to make decisions about you.

the government should take the same position on the economy as it does with religion here in the US, and that is: KEEP OUT.

food that is only labeled due to government regulation, until that law was passed most companies didn't label what was in their food, and when they did it was often false. So you can thank the big bad government for protecting your right to choose what you eat.

actually you can do a lot to the value of gold, just dig up more of it and the value decreases. common thats economics 101, if dumped half a million tons of gold onto the market what would happen?

[Sibirsky]

A better question would be, what is a fucking idiot like Lacy Clay doing on the monetary policy subcommittee? A better question would be, why is a liberal economics Nobel Laureate engaging in character assassination instead of addressing a single god damn issue on topic? A better question would be, why does the entire left have their panties in a bunch, and not addressing any legitimate issues of monetary policy?

The Federal Reserve always portrays itself as a distinguished institution. The Fed’s supporters are always so “scientific” and disinterested. But yesterday, in Ron Paul’s subcommittee on monetary policy, we found out exactly how supporters of the Federal Reserve react when challenged.

Dr. DiLorenzo, an Austrian economist, testified before the subcommittee. (For the video of the whole two-hour-long committee hearing, click here) But did the media report on his statement? No. They instead focused on his other economic works and attacked his credentials.

For those readers unfamiliar with Tom DiLorenzo’s research, he takes a critical view of often glorified political leaders from the past and reexamines their actions with the help of economics. His books include Hamilton's Curse, which takes a look at Alexander Hamilton’s huge role in pushing for a national bank. Essentially, today’s Federal Reserve is a fulfillment of Hamilton’s vision. Dr. DiLorenzo is best known for his notable book on Abraham Lincoln, The Real Lincoln.

’ve read both books and found them extremely interesting. And though Lincoln has many admirers, his administration did close opposition newspapers and did deport an unfriendly congressman, among other wrong-doings. Those actions aren’t very democratic, to say the least. Furthermore, the book questions Lincoln’s views toward slavery and African-Americans. Lincoln supported the colonization of freed slaves back to Africa and even defended a slave owner in court over the issue of an escaped slave. In his book, DiLorenzo also questions the necessity of the bloodshed in the Civil War that resulted in the loss of 600,000 lives.

We can all have different opinions on Lincoln, but we can probably agree that no one deserves a public witch trial for academically criticizing a past presidency. After all, scholarly work is best when it challenges commonly held beliefs.

Now, what does this have to do with monetary policy? Absolutely nothing. But this is what the supporters of the Fed would rather discuss than the Austrian arguments against the Fed. Hmm… I wonder why?

On the New York Times blog, Paul Krugman mentions DiLorenzo’s testimony. He notes, “Mike Konczal has a post about Ron Paul’s first hearing on monetary policy, in which he points out that the lead witness is a big Lincoln-hater and defender of the Southern secession. And it’s true!”

Thank you for this highly educated response, Dr. Krugman. DiLorenzo testifies with an Austrian economics argument, and Krugman, an economics Nobel Laureate, responds with a character smear and no mention of anything said at the hearing. Bravo.

Liberal blogger Matt Yglesias went after DiLorenzo for his criticisms of Abraham Lincoln as well, but at least he actually made some short commentary on economics. Since backgrounds seem to be important to Yglesias, let’s point out his highly qualified credentials on the topic, a degree in philosophy and no financial industry experience.

In the committee, Congressman Lacy Clay accused Tom DiLorenzo of working for a neo-confederate group. He attacked his character but ultimately had no monetary-policy questions for him. Once again, while on the topic of character assassination, let me quote Mr. Clay, a holder of a political science degree, in his opening statement:

“The Republican assertion that the Fed’s actions to diffuse the money supply in order to hold down interest rates and lower unemployment will somehow harm our currency is absolutely wrong.”

His comment doesn’t place him in the Austrian school of thought or the Keynesian school. It places him in the school of dimwits and jackasses. There is no PhD economist alive that would agree with his incredibly ignorant statement. It is absolutely frightening that a man who lacks an understanding of even the most basic macroeconomic principles sits on the subcommittee for monetary policy.

Congressman Al Green also had a choice quote, but it wasn’t as bad as Mr. Clay’s:

“I believe that the chairman [Bernanke] has embarked upon a path that is going to help us have a soft, softer landing than we would have but for the QEI and the QEII. Without them, it’s counterfactual, but there are economists that tell us that we would have a landing that may have been a crash and it may have been devastating for the economy much more so than where we are now. “

Strange, fall 2008 sure felt like a crash, but it’s a good thing that the economy wasn’t devastated. The recession has only been the second longest recession in U.S. history. On a side note, remember yesterday's intro on “soft landings”? They are often promised but rarely seen.

When the Fed really gets threatened, the veil of a distinguished institution falls apart and the creature from Jekyll Island shows its ugly face. It’s not about theory, logic or facts. The Fed will do anything to keep itself in power.

I have many more thoughts on this subcommittee hearing, but I’ll have to turn it over to Alena Mikhan and Andrey Dashkov who will report on the growing demand for gold from China and India. Then, Alex Daley’s article will touch on Nokia’s future and the CEO’s recently leaked company memo. This CEO isn’t a bad writer – I wish that I had used the burning oil platform analogy for an article. I could think of a few instances where that would work well in a Daily Dispatch piece. Anyway, let’s get started…

[The Black Forrest]

Ohhhhhhh I understand you now. I am sheltered as my wife is Italian so fresh cooking is all I get.

I would agree as I see many women at the stores with the pre-made stuff rather then buying the ingredients. My daughter will know how to cook as my wife will see to it(I teach her things as well).....

better make sure any sons do too. just in case they dont marry an italian girl.

Didn't have any