Healthcare question for Americans.

[Zoingo]

-snip-

It is a mutual feeling for me and what you describe nails my exact belief, what do we have to have health care? We were guaranteed the rights to "freedom of speach, press, religion, arms etc. etc.", I hardly see that healthcare is another absolute right that we have to have. Personally, I believe that non-emergency healthcare coverage/insurance needs serious reforms or should go all together. What moral rule obligates that a doctor and a patient can't discuss costs directly?

[Lunatic Goofballs]

What really irks me about all of this health care reform nonsense is this. I'm 21 year old male, I don't smoke, abuse drugs and occasionally drink. I'm in good physical condition and am still a college student. I don't have health care insurance and do not care. The US government wants to tell me that I do not have that right and that I must purchase health insurance/ join some Universal Health Care Pool (and then meet certain requirements, checkups, screenings, etc.) or face legal consequences.

Does anyone on this thread actually think it's fair, that it is just, or that it is right to obligate a person under threat of law to have health care?

Questions to consider before answering:

Just because a person is in an accident and cannot pay for an operation out of pocket RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT, doesn't mean they cannot pay for it over a period of time. How many of you bought your last car by paying in full, in cash, at the dealership? Why could you not finance an operation?

Does society have an obligation to provide services to those who are refuse them (and are mentally competent)? Where do Christian Scientists and Scientologists fit into this health care mess? Will Jehovah's Witnesses be forced to accept blood transfusions?

Is a more socialistic model the only way to provide good health care for all who desire it? There were 49 million Medicaid participants in 2008 and about 35 million were covered by Medicare in 2008. This means 84 million Americans health care was administered by the US government, this means 38% of health care insurance was handled by the Federal Government (I'm excluding state and local, and also all government employees who receive health benefits as well) and 62% handled it privately. However, 15% percent don't have health coverage, thus ONE THIRD of all health care last year was handled by the government (84 million/ 255million w/ health care) and one two thirds privately. Can we honestly say that the private sector is incapable of providing health care when it already does not profit from a third of those it treats?

Diseases spread from the uninsured to the insured too. 'Perfectly Healthy' people get cancer too. Let me ask you this: Do you think it's appropriate that a condition that coul have been caught early and cheaply ends up costing Everybody else who actually have insurance hundreds of thousands of dollars because some twit thought he was 'perfectly' healthy?

Do the police only protect the people who want protection?

[Zeli]

And do you have any answer to the fact that GSK, a company from the UK, home of one of the first universal healthcare systems, is one of the top 3 pharmaceutical companies in the world?

And where are their many subsidiaries located... methinks it's outside the UK.

[The_pantless_hero]

<snip>

So, why are Americans in America against a lucid improvement for the individual and for all?

The majority are confused by ideological arguments about economic systems, and the rest are in the pocket of the special interests who are influencing politics on the matter. Those special interests are, primarily, the private insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry, both of which make big money off the abusive system the US currently has. So it's basically down to misinformation driven by political corruption.

And the medical supplies industry. They get to assrape us under the radar because the drug industry distracts everyone.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Which part of this again, is NOT direclty calling me a liar?

I called you a liar two pages ago.

[Sibirsky]

Many Americans don't support national healthcare because it will raise the premiums of the people that have health insurance and the middle class will get taxed(it's inevitable because the rich cant and shouldn't pay for everything). There will always be a social hierarchy and there will always be those with and those without... and plus when does a Republic (like the U.S.) get off on the idea that it needs to provide everything for everybody? If thats the case then we might as well relabel ourselves as the Communist States of America...

So when we need taxes to create roads and such, we should tax the people with less money?

The gasoline excise tax pays for the roads. It is basically a usage tax. The more you drive (and the more wear and tear you put on the roads) the more fuel you burn, hence the more tax you pay.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

So you are calling me a liar? It didnt happen?

Good Lord, of course not, sir.

I find your story of a Doctor cutting off an infected piece of skin, in his office, without surgical tools or anaesthetic or sterilisation, completely plausible and reasonable.

Not to mention the fact that all Doctors are inherently trained surgeons as well.

Not to mention he waited 4 hours for orange juice in an emergency room and then said it would've been impossible in Canada.

At least he wasn't abusing the system with trivial issues like they do in Canada.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Which part of this again, is NOT direclty calling me a liar?

I called you a liar two pages ago.

I asked you to do that several threads ago. *nods*

[The_pantless_hero]

Which part of this again, is NOT direclty calling me a liar?

I called you a liar two pages ago.

*counter retort*

So your counter to me calling you a liar, a very obvious assertion, is not to back up your claims but to instead post idiotic pictures?
Right.

[Zoingo]

So when we need taxes to create roads and such, we should tax the people with less money?

No, we should spend the money we give to the government more effectively, we should pave our roads instead of building turtle tunnels under them.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Many Americans don't support national healthcare because it will raise the premiums of the people that have health insurance and the middle class will get taxed(it's inevitable because the rich cant and shouldn't pay for everything). There will always be a social hierarchy and there will always be those with and those without... and plus when does a Republic (like the U.S.) get off on the idea that it needs to provide everything for everybody? If thats the case then we might as well relabel ourselves as the Communist States of America...

So when we need taxes to create roads and such, we should tax the people with less money?

The gasoline excise tax pays for the roads. It is basically a usage tax. The more you drive (and the more wear and tear you put on the roads) the more fuel you burn, hence the more tax you pay.

Your point? I was commenting on taxing the poorer people and letting the rich get by scot free.

[North Suran]

WTF????? Did I SAY he didnt use anethesia? or Sterilization? or Even Surgical Tools? WTF?

Which just happened to be lying in his office?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I called you a liar two pages ago.

*counter retort*

So your counter to me calling you a liar, a very obvious assertion, is not to back up your claims but to instead post idiotic pictures?
Right.

OK. I would post the fucking medical RECORDS, but that would be a violation if HIPPA, you fucking twit.

[Sibirsky]

So when we need taxes to create roads and such, we should tax the people with less money?

The gasoline excise tax pays for the roads. It is basically a usage tax. The more you drive (and the more wear and tear you put on the roads) the more fuel you burn, hence the more tax you pay.

Your point? I was commenting on taxing the poorer people and letting the rich get by scot free.

The rich pay higher taxes. And receive fewer services. You were talking about taxing the poor for roads.

[North Suran]

So your counter to me calling you a liar, a very obvious assertion, is not to back up your claims but to instead post idiotic pictures?
Right.

He also thoroughly disproved his own anecdotal evidence, as no person old enough to have a wife and child would post like that.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

WTF????? Did I SAY he didnt use anethesia? or Sterilization? or Even Surgical Tools? WTF?

Which just happened to be lying in his office?

Doctors, especially in small communities DO have stuff like this in thier offices. They have hmm... Ear Wax removal kits.... Ingrown toenail removal kits... Minor surgical kits? Ever hear of stitches?

[Riveara]

Most of the industrialzed countries have much smaller populations (not including China) then the USA. So in the us it cost a HUGE amount more for universal health care. Plus, right now, we do not have the money for a socialized health care plan.

[Zoingo]

Your point? I was commenting on taxing the poorer people and letting the rich get by scot free.

Umm...the rich in this country don't get by "scot free", a fine example is our current tax code in the US, which taxes a certain percentage of your income in increments (ex. 1-10,000 is taxed 10%), the percentage constantly increases until you reach 250,000+, which tops out at 49%. Now, tell me how the rich get by "scot free" in this situation.

[Solo Anarchists]

Many Americans don't support national healthcare because it will raise the premiums of the people that have health insurance and the middle class will get taxed(it's inevitable because the rich cant and shouldn't pay for everything). There will always be a social hierarchy and there will always be those with and those without... and plus when does a Republic (like the U.S.) get off on the idea that it needs to provide everything for everybody? If thats the case then we might as well relabel ourselves as the Communist States of America...

So when we need taxes to create roads and such, we should tax the people with less money?

Taxes should not have to be raised... if nothing else they should be lowered. If they were to lower my taxes for example and let me bring home an extra $200 or $300 a month I could maybe buy a new car or something of that nature. Lower taxes = more money in the pockets of working citizens, which in turn equals more consumer spending

[Buffett and Colbert]

Most of the industrialzed countries have much smaller populations (not including China) then the USA. So in the us it cost a HUGE amount more for universal health care. Plus, right now, we do not have the money for a socialized health care plan.

Proof? And besides, with a huge population comes a huge income from the money they get from taxing us into oblivion.

[The_pantless_hero]

OK. I would post the fucking medical RECORDS, but that would be a violation if HIPPA, you fucking twit.

Oh please, you have yet to even put forward an idiotic argument to back up all your disparaging claims about Canada's or the UK's national healthcare systems.

[Muravyets]

Because the far right has started a misinformation campaign trying to stop it.

I didn't know the blue dog democrats are far rightist.

They are, actually. Ever since all those Republican sex scandals starting breaking out of that secret club house that weird religious cult runs out of that house on C Street in DC, where all serious bible-thumping Congressguys live together, like a big frat house with bibles and hookers, it has started to come out that several of the "blue dog" Dems live in that house, too, and have other very close ties to the far right wing of the Republican party. I think it is quite reasonable to call them the "far right" of the Democratic party, since they walk, swim and quack just like all the other far rightists, and belong to all the same clubs, too.

[North Suran]

Doctors, especially in small communities DO have stuff like this in thier offices. They have hmm... Ear Wax removal kits....

There's a fine line between using cotton buds to remove ear wax and performing inpromptu surgery.

Ingrown toenail removal kits...

Is that a medical term?

Minor surgical kits? Ever hear of stitches?

Ever hear of a Doctor performing minor surgery in his office, using only what was in there and without properly sterilising his equipment?

[Yootopia]

Now, looking at the NHS, we see a more rosy picture, but when we hear things about rationing care (such as US Media reporting "that the UK Healthcare Commission was denying women with breast cancer treatment")

Aye, which is a total misrepresentation of the facts. We don't let people take drugs which haven't been fully tested. Calling that "denying women breast cancer treatment is like stopping unqualified pilots from being in charge of 747s "UK Government bans flying".

long lines and decreasing numbers of doctors and nurses....we kinda take a step back and wonder if this is all true or not.

You probably should take a step back wonder if this is all true or not...

Specialists in almost all areas are up about 50% on the levels in 1997, levels of doctors and nurses has also risen in this time. Waiting times are down a shitload from even a couple of years ago, and the death rate per 100,000 is down about 40% on 1997.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsand ... /DH_100667

Enjoy.

And do you have any answer to the fact that GSK, a company from the UK, home of one of the first universal healthcare systems, is one of the top 3 pharmaceutical companies in the world?

.
Hmm...do you have answer to the fact that the other 2 companies that beat GSK are from the United States, a country that has no universal heathcare system?

Yeah, "The US contains five times as many people and far more money than the UK".

Or that out of the top 47 Pharmacutical companies in the world, nearly half (22) are from the United States? The United Kingdom has only 2 (Although AstraZeneca is co-owned with a Swedish company, so that doesn't count).

Uhu... GSK's revenue beats the bottom 20 or so of those companies put together, is a more profitable firm than the bottom 30 of those put together and is the second-highest spender on R&D in the world. Rather more important than the little fish of the Big Pharma world largely being American.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

OK. I would post the fucking medical RECORDS, but that would be a violation if HIPPA, you fucking twit.

Oh please, you have yet to even put forward an idiotic argument to back up all your disparaging claims about Canada's or the UK's national healthcare systems.

Ok, why am I responding with pictures... because by your idiotic posts you obviously are of the mental state in which you can only understand pictures. It amazes me that you have an IQ large enough to even breathe.