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U.S. Military, Apparently its Own Worse Enemy

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U.S. Military, Apparently its Own Worse Enemy

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:33 am

So, it turns out that more troops for the last two years have been killed by the troops themselves than by enemy fire.

For the second year in a row, the U.S. military has lost more troops to suicide than it has to combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Actually, I'm going to back up here, because something is amiss...that is in fact the opening sentence of the linked article, but it has this paragraph following it:
Overall, the services reported 434 suicides by personnel on active duty, significantly more than the 381 suicides by active-duty personnel reported in 2009. The 2010 total is below the 462 deaths in combat, excluding accidents and illness. In 2009, active-duty suicides exceeded deaths in battle.

I know, that doesn't match. But there's a reason, read on-
Last week’s figures, though, understate the problem of military suicides because the services do not report the statistics uniformly. Several do so only reluctantly.

Figures reported by each of the services last week, for instance, include suicides by members of the Guard and Reserve who were on active duty at the time. The Army and the Navy also add up statistics for certain reservists who kill themselves when they are not on active duty.

But the Air Force and Marine Corps do not include any non-mobilized reservists in their posted numbers. What’s more, none of the services count suicides that occur among a class of reservists known as the Individual Ready Reserve, the more than 123,000 people who are not assigned to particular units.

Suicides by veterans who have left the service entirely after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan also are not counted by the Defense Department. The Department of Veterans Affairs keeps track of such suicides only if the person was enrolled in the VA health care system — which three-quarters of veterans are not.

But even if such veterans and members of the Individual Ready Reserve are excluded from the suicide statistics, just taking into account the deaths of reservists who were not included in last week’s figures pushes the number of suicides last year to at least 468.

And there it is. It's a little confusing, but it's good to know how the numbers are arrived at.

So that's depressing. Our soldiers are killing themselves off faster than 'the enemy' can. I think that this underlines the problem with the gung ho military attitude that we adopt when we ask people to kill in our name without consideration for the effect that has on a person. I know that we cannot live in a world without a military because, well, it's an idea that perpetuates itself, but I'm sure more idealistic people than me will take up that banner, but honestly, it takes more than an "America, Fuck Yeah!" USO tour by Toby Keith to deal with what we do to the mental health of our young volunteers when we program them to fight.

And it's not that there aren't people who recognize this:
Moved by [Army Sgt. Coleman S.] Bean’s story, [New Jersey Democratic Representative Rush D.] Holt wrote a bill requiring phone contacts with these reservists every 90 days after they come home from war. The House adopted Holt’s provision as part of its defense authorization bills for both fiscal 2010 and fiscal 2011.


But the flag-waviest, troop-lovingest Senator of them all, someone who is no stranger to the trauma that a soldier might endure, decided...not so much:
But conferees writing the final version of the bills took it out both years.

Holt said in December that Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain was responsible for that decision in the most recent bill. A spokeswoman for McCain, Brooke Buchanan, would not state his position on the provision. Instead, she said House members had removed it.

A House Armed Services Committee spokeswoman, Jennifer Kohl, said the House reluctantly pulled the provision from the bill because of the opposition of senators, whom she did not name.

Alright, he hasn't said he did it...Holt just accused him of it.

Part of the problem, it seems, is that not all soldiers are created equally:
Some types of reservists are more cut off than others. Rep. Rush D. Holt, a New Jersey Democrat, says that members of the Individual Ready Reserve and other categories of citizen-soldiers do not receive a thorough screening for mental health issues when they return from deployments.

One of those soldiers, a constituent of Holt’s named Coleman S. Bean, was an Army sergeant and Iraq War veteran who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder but could not find treatment. He took his own life in 2008.


So, this is in the news, but it's not news. Which brings me to my second point/question/whatever, which has elements of my first, buried in the quote farm up there...shouldn't this be news? I argue that it's because it flies in the face of the mythology we've managed to reconstruct around the American soldier after Vietnam. I'm not making excuses for the alleged actions of those against Vietnam to the veterans (seriously, don't want to get into that argument--what's salient is the perception, whether it happened to the degree believed or not is not relevant, what is relevant is the attitude about the American soldier that has formed in its wake). Since Vietnam, you have to more or less preface any criticism of military policy with, "Of course, I support the troops, however-"

But can we really be said to support them when we are neglecting their mental state after they have served? It's all fun and games to support them shooting people (unless you're the people they're shooting, or you have to live in the homes that they're having their rockin' little fire fight around...but I digress), but it's harder to face the ugly truth of the damage that does to someone's psyche. And it's not just combat troops, but people who have never seen combat. We are sacrificing our youth on their own swords. Not quite the Mail Call "Hoo ah!" moment, really.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postby Maurepas » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:14 am

Well, you're right to go back to Vietnam with it. The real trick here is, the military changed during the Vietnam War. They surveyed soldiers during World War II and discovered that something like only 25% or so of soldiers were actually firing their weapons at the enemy. Further, they tested the rate of fire and accuracy with weapons used during the US Civil War and discovered that that same figure played out almost perfectly, that casualties were only 25% or so of what they could've been.

So what they did during the Vietnam War was changed the training, before then you would be trained in the typical Bravery and Honor and whatnot system. During and after the Vietnam War you're trained to think of your enemy as just that, "the enemy" not a person, but a paper target, etc.

That changes a person, they got the results they wanted, IIRC, soldiers were alot more deadly, but they were also alot more prone to post-traumatic stress and the like. As a result, more suicides and other problems that come along with that.

Personally, I would submit that John McCain knows all of that, and votes accordingly. Further, I would posit that the reason you don't hear of it in the news as much as you should, is that it simply doesn't sell, average gung-ho American doesn't want to hear anything that isn't gung-ho America. As a result, news media neglects to report on issues like this, and the ones that do don't get the exposure and the advertising dollars, because the majority of people simply don't want to hear it.

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Re: U.S. Military, Apparently its Own Worse Enemy

Postby Alien Space Bats » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:35 am

What's the corresponding suicide rate for the general population and for individuals in high-stress positions, such as police officers?

Also, what were the peacetime military suicide rates back in the 1990's?
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:19 pm

Alien Space Bats wrote:What's the corresponding suicide rate for the general population and for individuals in high-stress positions, such as police officers?

And interesting question, though I wish you had done the google fu yourself instead of just asking, but there's a case to be made, I guess. Anyway, the national suicide rate is just under 12 per 100,000. If I'm doing the math right, the military's suicide rate is just over 30 per 100,000. The stat I could find for police officers, which was also listed as 'alarming' was 18 per 100,000. So it would seem that the suicide rate is more dramatic in the military by a bunch.
Alien Space Bats wrote:Also, what were the peacetime military suicide rates back in the 1990's?

Surprising to me I managed to find a source for that which includes comparisons to post-2000 and as it turns out, explores a lot of relevant statistics. But it is a PDF and not exactly reader friendly. From what it seems to say, 1990 to 2000 was above, but within pace to civilian suicide rates adjusted for demographics.

If you feel like downloading the PDF it's here: http://www.health.mil/dhb/.../3.../Hoge_Epidemiological%20studies,WRAIR.pdf, it is way more thorough than the article, lots of charts that sometimes don't tell you the things that the title says they tell you. It is, however, a presentation made to the Department of Defense by a retired Col. and M.D.
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Postby New Guadalupe » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:32 pm

I've decided to join the military, but I've spent a lot of time studying what I'm going into and thought about it.* It really makes me sad when I see these people who enlist after talking with a recruiter for half and hour, and they haven't got a damn clue what they're going into, and come out looking like the crummiest person you ever saw. Luckily all my friends in the military love it, but I've met a few people who did what I'm talking about, and they hated it.

*I'm joining as a CO in the Navy. I plan to do 10 years active duty, and then go into reserves.

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Postby The New Front » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:42 pm

Yes, it must be extremely depressing sitting around all day than laying it a wet disease-ridden trench in Nazi Germany or walking across a field knowing that a japanese soldier could blow himself up at your feet.I support our troops and everything but I really question this shit. :eyebrow:

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:43 pm

New Guadalupe wrote:I've decided to join the military, but I've spent a lot of time studying what I'm going into and thought about it.* It really makes me sad when I see these people who enlist after talking with a recruiter for half and hour, and they haven't got a damn clue what they're going into, and come out looking like the crummiest person you ever saw. Luckily all my friends in the military love it, but I've met a few people who did what I'm talking about, and they hated it.

*I'm joining as a CO in the Navy. I plan to do 10 years active duty, and then go into reserves.

So it would be your contention that the high suicide rate is related to people who 'haven't got a damn clue what they're going into, and come out looking like the crummiest person you ever saw.' At this point, since it's the subject, you're talking about those who committed suicide? Your contention is that these people didn't know what they were getting into and thus committed suicide? From what you're saying, you lay it on them (and certainly, every suicide at the very least ends with the individual), but isn't there also a responsibility, then, for the recruiter and the military itself to make sure that these people who 'talk with a recruiter for half an hour' do indeed know what they're getting into and are able to handle it? If you have such a high demand job, don't you have at least a partial responsibility in who you allow to do it?
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postby New Guadalupe » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:44 pm

Maurepas wrote:Well, you're right to go back to Vietnam with it. The real trick here is, the military changed during the Vietnam War. They surveyed soldiers during World War II and discovered that something like only 25% or so of soldiers were actually firing their weapons at the enemy. Further, they tested the rate of fire and accuracy with weapons used during the US Civil War and discovered that that same figure played out almost perfectly, that casualties were only 25% or so of what they could've been.

So what they did during the Vietnam War was changed the training, before then you would be trained in the typical Bravery and Honor and whatnot system. During and after the Vietnam War you're trained to think of your enemy as just that, "the enemy" not a person, but a paper target, etc.

True dat, but I'm gonna bet that that survey was taken among troops in the European theater. I remember reading about a poll taken among an Army Regiment during WW2, and they were asked "Do you actually want to kill a German?", and only 7% said yes. But when they were asked "Do you actually want to kill a Japanese?", 44% said yes. We viewed the Japanese, and the Japanese viewed us, as subhuman. And they were trained the same way during Vietnam. However it all depended on what theater they were gonna send you into. According to Pacific War vet Eugene Sledge in his book, Marine training in World War Two was just as bad as it was in Vietnam, but for the Army (which was fighting in Europe mainly, with the Marines dominating the Pacific), it wasn't nearly as rigorous.

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:44 pm

The New Front wrote:Yes, it must be extremely depressing sitting around all day than laying it a wet disease-ridden trench in Nazi Germany or walking across a field knowing that a japanese soldier could blow himself up at your feet.I support our troops and everything but I really question this shit. :eyebrow:

There is not a sentence in here that doesn't confuse me in some way.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postby New Guadalupe » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:49 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
New Guadalupe wrote:I've decided to join the military, but I've spent a lot of time studying what I'm going into and thought about it.* It really makes me sad when I see these people who enlist after talking with a recruiter for half and hour, and they haven't got a damn clue what they're going into, and come out looking like the crummiest person you ever saw. Luckily all my friends in the military love it, but I've met a few people who did what I'm talking about, and they hated it.

*I'm joining as a CO in the Navy. I plan to do 10 years active duty, and then go into reserves.

So it would be your contention that the high suicide rate is related to people who 'haven't got a damn clue what they're going into, and come out looking like the crummiest person you ever saw.' At this point, since it's the subject, you're talking about those who committed suicide? Your contention is that these people didn't know what they were getting into and thus committed suicide? From what you're saying, you lay it on them (and certainly, every suicide at the very least ends with the individual), but isn't there also a responsibility, then, for the recruiter and the military itself to make sure that these people who 'talk with a recruiter for half an hour' do indeed know what they're getting into and are able to handle it? If you have such a high demand job, don't you have at least a partial responsibility in who you allow to do it?

I do believe the recruiters are very "I'll show you the good, and hide the bad", and are at fault as well. I think people need to do there own research about the military (and it's not hard at all to find non biased material) before joining.

Frankly, I think Eugene Sledge's "With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa" should be required reading in high school. It's been hailed as the best war memoir ever written by dozens of historians, and in my opinion beats the shit out of the more popular "All Quiet on the Western Front".

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Postby New Guadalupe » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:53 pm

The New Front wrote:Yes, it must be extremely depressing sitting around all day than laying it a wet disease-ridden trench in Nazi Germany or walking across a field knowing that a japanese soldier could blow himself up at your feet.I support our troops and everything but I really question this shit. :eyebrow:

I think it's because the training is super intense and hard to bear, but they don't have any motive to keep going like they did in World War Two (the motive being to "Slap a Jap" or "Kill a Kraut" for bombing pearl Harbor and crushing our British and French allies).

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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Honestly I would not like a phone contact every 90 days after i come home from war.
An invasion of my privacy and free time, and soldiers are taught to mental health screenings.
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Postby Mosasauria » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:07 pm

Quite an interesting little tidbit of knowledge. More to add to my collection of what the people I know consider "useless".
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Postby Ragnarsdomr » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:08 pm

New Guadalupe wrote:I think it's because the training is super intense and hard to bear, but they don't have any motive to keep going like they did in World War Two (the motive being to "Slap a Jap" or "Kill a Kraut" for bombing pearl Harbor and crushing our British and French allies).


So, we just need to create clever slogans, and all this will go away?

Reaver Industries and I will get on it straight away.
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:34 pm

New Guadalupe wrote:
The New Front wrote:Yes, it must be extremely depressing sitting around all day than laying it a wet disease-ridden trench in Nazi Germany or walking across a field knowing that a japanese soldier could blow himself up at your feet.I support our troops and everything but I really question this shit. :eyebrow:

I think it's because the training is super intense and hard to bear, but they don't have any motive to keep going like they did in World War Two (the motive being to "Slap a Jap" or "Kill a Kraut" for bombing pearl Harbor and crushing our British and French allies).

Wait, we're not using 9/11 for motivation anymore?
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Postby Delaclava » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:59 pm

This wouldn't be a problem if we weren't fighting wars that aren't ours. The Central Asian countries are their own entities who can make their own government, and at this point what we're doing is little better than imperialism.

But yeah, that cliche person who comes back from the war not quite the same is actually really common. PTSD is just running rampant and our troops can't get any help.
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Postby Virabia » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:53 pm

Ragnarsdomr wrote:
New Guadalupe wrote:I think it's because the training is super intense and hard to bear, but they don't have any motive to keep going like they did in World War Two (the motive being to "Slap a Jap" or "Kill a Kraut" for bombing pearl Harbor and crushing our British and French allies).


So, we just need to create clever slogans, and all this will go away?

Reaver Industries and I will get on it straight away.


If we used the rather blatant propaganda techniques of the past, that would back fire. Big time.

We got enough islamophobia as it is...
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Postby Ragnarsdomr » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:59 pm

Virabia wrote:If we used the rather blatant propaganda techniques of the past, that would back fire. Big time.

We got enough islamophobia as it is...


Damn. So no postcards of little children asking their father where HE was when the Taliban was overthrown? No giant banners of extremely moustachioed men saying that they need strapping lads like you to fight the Hu- the Taliban?

Seriously, it would be refreshing, compared to the blatantly unsophisticated techniques of the modern day.
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Postby Virabia » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:00 pm

Ragnarsdomr wrote:
Virabia wrote:If we used the rather blatant propaganda techniques of the past, that would back fire. Big time.

We got enough islamophobia as it is...


Damn. So no postcards of little children asking their father where HE was when the Taliban was overthrown? No giant banners of extremely moustachioed men saying that they need strapping lads like you to fight the Hu- the Taliban?

Seriously, it would be refreshing, compared to the blatantly unsophisticated techniques of the modern day.


If you're calling Papa Rush unsophisticated :P
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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:43 pm

From what I've heard second, maybe third-hand, training in the military is getting a little less intense from what it was around the Vietnam Era.

So I'm certainly interested in whether the root cause really is the training or has to do with other factors, such as the economy at home and what GIs are getting paid.

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:11 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:From what I've heard second, maybe third-hand, training in the military is getting a little less intense from what it was around the Vietnam Era.

So I'm certainly interested in whether the root cause really is the training or has to do with other factors, such as the economy at home and what GIs are getting paid.

From what I'm reading in the report, which again is thick and confusing (mostly if you're half paying attention while watching tv etc.), there are a number of factors that have seemed to contribute, and certainly that kind of thing might indeed be a factor. Especially when you consider that according to the report and the article a lot of the suicides are happening with soldiers who have not seen combat. Also, for what it's worth, the report indicates that the problem and increase is notably worse in the Army and Marines and not as much with the Air Force and Navy.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postby Vectrova » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:50 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:Rather typical of a culture that is as anti-militaristic as America


what.

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Why would you sa-

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Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He explained it better than I can.

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Cannot think of a name
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45100
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:51 pm

Vectrova wrote:
New Nicksyllvania wrote:Rather typical of a culture that is as anti-militaristic as America


what.

How do yo-

Why would you sa-

...

what.

I figured he was being sarcastic, but I couldn't figure out to what end, so I let it go.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Brandenburg-Altmark
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5813
Founded: Nov 25, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Brandenburg-Altmark » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:55 pm

New Guadalupe wrote:
Maurepas wrote:Well, you're right to go back to Vietnam with it. The real trick here is, the military changed during the Vietnam War. They surveyed soldiers during World War II and discovered that something like only 25% or so of soldiers were actually firing their weapons at the enemy. Further, they tested the rate of fire and accuracy with weapons used during the US Civil War and discovered that that same figure played out almost perfectly, that casualties were only 25% or so of what they could've been.

So what they did during the Vietnam War was changed the training, before then you would be trained in the typical Bravery and Honor and whatnot system. During and after the Vietnam War you're trained to think of your enemy as just that, "the enemy" not a person, but a paper target, etc.

True dat, but I'm gonna bet that that survey was taken among troops in the European theater. I remember reading about a poll taken among an Army Regiment during WW2, and they were asked "Do you actually want to kill a German?", and only 7% said yes. But when they were asked "Do you actually want to kill a Japanese?", 44% said yes. We viewed the Japanese, and the Japanese viewed us, as subhuman. And they were trained the same way during Vietnam. However it all depended on what theater they were gonna send you into. According to Pacific War vet Eugene Sledge in his book, Marine training in World War Two was just as bad as it was in Vietnam, but for the Army (which was fighting in Europe mainly, with the Marines dominating the Pacific), it wasn't nearly as rigorous.


Of course they didn't want to actually kill a German, hell half of them were second and third generation immigrants whose parents and grandparents were as German as you'll find anywhere in Europe.
Economic Left/Right: -7.50 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.21
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Free isam wrote:
United Dependencies wrote:Where's inda? Or Russa for that matter?

idot inda is asias gron and russa is its hat ok :palm:

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Nekronia
Senator
 
Posts: 4528
Founded: Dec 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Nekronia » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:01 pm

The New Front wrote:Yes, it must be extremely depressing sitting around all day than laying it a wet disease-ridden trench in Nazi Germany or walking across a field knowing that a japanese soldier could blow himself up at your feet.I support our troops and everything but I really question this shit. :eyebrow:


If any moment you could die, you don't have time to think about it. You just try to survive, and serve. You don't get to think about that kid you shot, or that friend who died, just LIVE. Survive, and thrive, the animal way!
The Templar High Council wrote:The number of times Nek makes sense is grossly outnumbered by the times he doesn't.
IC Info: TL;DR verson of Nekronia: Authoritarian government with elements of the USSR and national socialism. Everyone works for the government, and buys from the government, obsoleting taxes as the money does not leave the country, save for government buying of items of foreign nations. Military is advanced but unconventional, focusing on infantry and psychological warfare. Primary method of national income is export of armaments and other war-related items.

OOC Info: I am a male and an atheist.
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