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U.S. Military, Apparently its Own Worse Enemy

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Setulan
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Postby Setulan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:13 pm

Maurepas wrote:Well, you're right to go back to Vietnam with it. The real trick here is, the military changed during the Vietnam War. They surveyed soldiers during World War II and discovered that something like only 25% or so of soldiers were actually firing their weapons at the enemy. Further, they tested the rate of fire and accuracy with weapons used during the US Civil War and discovered that that same figure played out almost perfectly, that casualties were only 25% or so of what they could've been.

So what they did during the Vietnam War was changed the training, before then you would be trained in the typical Bravery and Honor and whatnot system. During and after the Vietnam War you're trained to think of your enemy as just that, "the enemy" not a person, but a paper target, etc.

That changes a person, they got the results they wanted, IIRC, soldiers were alot more deadly, but they were also alot more prone to post-traumatic stress and the like. As a result, more suicides and other problems that come along with that.



I just wanted to point out a few points in this. First off, it was 20%, not 25% (just a nitpick, I know), and it wasn't 20% of soldiers, but 20% of riflemen-a very important distinction, since the lack of firing was most certainly not found in machinegun crews, pilots, indirect fire weapons operators and the like. Also, it wasn't during Vietnam that they actively attempted to change it-they started immediately after the S.L.A. Marshall report came out, and the number had gone to around 50% by Korea. By Vietnam, it was over 90%. And the factors invovled are rather more significant than just thinking about the enemy as "the enemy;" there are a number of training techniques, such as shooting at man-shaped targets rather than bulls-eyes, extensive drilling in reflexive fire, etc. If you're still interested, I encourage you to read On Killing, by Dave Grossman-it's a fascinating study on all this stuff.

As for the OP...

I've been in for almost three years now, and I've lost count of the number of suicide prevention briefings I've been to. It's a serious problem, but hardly new-even when I joined, we were still losing more troops to suicide than to combat in the average month. So while yes, it is very bad, the military is doing its best to confront the problem and deal with it succesfully.
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Chyeknovostan Republic
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Postby Chyeknovostan Republic » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:15 pm

Is in the military...not US
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Concordeia
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Postby Concordeia » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:16 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Vectrova wrote:
what.

How do yo-

Why would you sa-

...

what.


Really, find me a single American that thinks war is a good thing rather then as a necessary evil that should be finished ASAP.

Give me a single reason why anyone would think war is a good thing.
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Falkasia wrote:
Concordeia wrote:Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block missile spam! And I'm freakin early PMT! :mad: :(

I gotta say it. First time I read through this, I could have sworn it said something like this:
Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block spam missiles!

I was like, "Who the hell are you fighting... or more importantly, was your lunch meat laced?"


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Sociobiology
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Postby Sociobiology » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:23 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Vectrova wrote:
what.

How do yo-

Why would you sa-

...

what.


Really, find me a single American that thinks war is a good thing rather then as a necessary evil that should be finished ASAP.

you seriously over-estimate the american people, I've met people who think war is best way to keep the number of poor and minorities down. if you have a country with half a billion people you will have some raging A-hole psychos in the mix.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:25 pm

Setulan wrote:As for the OP...

I've been in for almost three years now, and I've lost count of the number of suicide prevention briefings I've been to. It's a serious problem, but hardly new-even when I joined, we were still losing more troops to suicide than to combat in the average month. So while yes, it is very bad, the military is doing its best to confront the problem and deal with it succesfully.

I didn't want to suggest that the military was unaware of the problem (the report itself comes from the military and there is a military representative who responded to it), but there is also a notable reluctance about keeping statistics on it (the problem with the lack of uniformity in reporting for one), and since the instances are increasing it does not seem successful.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Concordeia
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Postby Concordeia » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:28 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Concordeia wrote:Give me a single reason why anyone would think war is a good thing.

Brings out the best in humanity, allows one to prove their devotion to their nation, loot and plunder.

Why, not a hundred years ago people would have looked at you funny for saying war was bad. Pacifists were the most reviled things around.

America is not militaristic, it does not have the same warrior culture many nations have

Best of humanity my ass. War is a hellish meat grinder. And by the way, in case you missed it, stealing is unacceptable in modern society. That should go for countries as well as people.
Funny Quotes:
Falkasia wrote:
Concordeia wrote:Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block missile spam! And I'm freakin early PMT! :mad: :(

I gotta say it. First time I read through this, I could have sworn it said something like this:
Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block spam missiles!

I was like, "Who the hell are you fighting... or more importantly, was your lunch meat laced?"


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Let it be known that God hates you.
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Take the World Census 2011 at http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=83868

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Chyeknovostan Republic
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Postby Chyeknovostan Republic » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:56 pm

America is more on tryhing to keep the peace though sometimes it doesnt work out too well and ends up biting them in the ass. Either way, being in the military is very gruelling for anyone from any country. Sometimes people can't cope with it.
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Mosasauria
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Postby Mosasauria » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:00 pm

Concordeia wrote:
New Nicksyllvania wrote:Brings out the best in humanity, allows one to prove their devotion to their nation, loot and plunder.

Why, not a hundred years ago people would have looked at you funny for saying war was bad. Pacifists were the most reviled things around.

America is not militaristic, it does not have the same warrior culture many nations have

Best of humanity my ass. War is a hellish meat grinder. And by the way, in case you missed it, stealing is unacceptable in modern society. That should go for countries as well as people.

:rofl:
War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:01 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Concordeia wrote:Best of humanity my ass. War is a hellish meat grinder. And by the way, in case you missed it, stealing is unacceptable in modern society. That should go for countries as well as people.

Precisely, America does not have a warrior culture as it considers stealing and killing barbaric. Hence why they seem more likely to take their own lives.

I know you're just fucking around, but wouldn't this have manifest in almost every culture over the last one hundred years and not just the last ten?
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:02 pm

Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.

As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Mosasauria
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Postby Mosasauria » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.

As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

Have you ever heard of a time when there was true peace?
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The Soviet Technocracy
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Postby The Soviet Technocracy » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:05 pm

Vectrova wrote:
New Nicksyllvania wrote:Rather typical of a culture that is as anti-militaristic as America


what.

How do yo-

Why would you sa-

...

what.


It's true. America and the West in general can't fight a proper COIN to save it's own arse.
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FREEaquaticdancelesson
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Postby FREEaquaticdancelesson » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:07 pm

War, simply put.. is hell.

I know some people who have come out of Iraq triumphant and bragging about killing terrorists.
Some...don't quite come back the same.. it's really sad, lack of interest in anything, they don't really want to talk, you know something's happened.
Dead soldiers are tragic no matter if it was suicide or combat, and is a sad inevitability of any war ever. Unnecessary sacrifices for a silly continuation of the gulf war, really.
It makes me sick to my stomach that people could send soldiers to war without experiencing war themselves. If you're going to send someone into a war zone at least have the courtesy to know the danger you put them in.
Humans AREN'T monkeys, they're apes.

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THINK of all the war propaganda you endure every day
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THINK of how avid consumerism is a part of your life.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:12 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:From what I've heard second, maybe third-hand, training in the military is getting a little less intense from what it was around the Vietnam Era.

So I'm certainly interested in whether the root cause really is the training or has to do with other factors, such as the economy at home and what GIs are getting paid.

I dunno about pay, but surely personal relationships, broken homes and such likely are a good part of it.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:14 pm

Mosasauria wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

Have you ever heard of a time when there was true peace?

I'm sure there was a time when people had never heard of a representative democracy or a middle class.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:16 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:Have you ever heard of a time when there was true peace?

I'm sure there was a time when people had never heard of a representative democracy or a middle class.

I think those peopled got maimed by the Mongolians.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:25 pm

Altamirus wrote:
New Nicksyllvania wrote:Brings out the best in humanity, allows one to prove their devotion to their nation, loot and plunder.

Why, not a hundred years ago people would have looked at you funny for saying war was bad. Pacifists were the most reviled things around.

America is not militaristic, it does not have the same warrior culture many nations have

How is looting,plundering and raping part of the best in humanity?

How is it not? ;)
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:30 pm

Altamirus wrote:
New Nicksyllvania wrote:What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Conan

You are quoting a freaking barbarian. :palm:

Not just any barbarian, a fictional barbarian from a movie adapted from pulp novels...I mean...uh...
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:40 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Altamirus wrote:You are quoting a freaking barbarian. :palm:


Oh, elitist are we, care not for the opinion of commoners now? Good show.

Only through war a man can achieve absolute fullness. And only a soldier that risks his life willingly will be able to experience the ultimate illumination that comes with war. Living on the edge, giving in to the bestial instincts that haunt the back of each man’s head, leaving your body on the way between the enemy and your family, friends and nation with a clear conscience that supports the moral backbone of each warrior.
Johannes A. Wiegerinck

So...at the outbreak of the Iraq war I was involved in a (what was likely one of hundreds...) production of Lysestrata that contained a bit where two characters 'dueled' with quotes regarding peace and war. Which was more or less assembled with a pair of google searches.

So, to save time, war quotes, anti-war quotes. There we go...all settled, right?
Last edited by Cannot think of a name on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Luciratus
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Postby Luciratus » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:45 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.

As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

Quite sigable, good sir.

I do believe that the poster above me is relatively correct about the warrior culture of America. The majority of the wars that America has fought in have been either defensive or perceived as defensive, where as other civilizations have actively sought to be aggressive and imperialistic- although they sometimes used rationalization as well. The perception of war has changed notably since Vietnam. World War I and World War II were seen largely as necessary crusades against an non-human enemy. The entire society was dedicated to war during those periods and the propaganda was ridiculously common place. During Vietnam, both the perception of war on the front and the cries of the populace changed. War became evil when it was not waged on American soil. Even after a few months of fighting in Afghanistan, there were already people protesting the conflict. I would say largely that modernization and the changes which occured after the major world wars and during Vietnam, as well as alterations in training and the perception of conflict, have led to these mortifying statistics.
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Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Cameroi wrote:And I still say, 9 out of 10 fetuses would rather be aborted then be born unwanted.

Did you poll those fetuses on their opinion?

Ezekiel Bardoff (dictator)
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The Soviet Technocracy
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Postby The Soviet Technocracy » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:49 pm

New Nicksyllvania wrote:
Altamirus wrote:How is looting,plundering and raping part of the best in humanity?

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Conan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335p ... re=related

o/o/o/
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:57 pm

Luciratus wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

Quite sigable, good sir.

I do believe that the poster above me is relatively correct about the warrior culture of America. The majority of the wars that America has fought in have been either defensive or perceived as defensive, where as other civilizations have actively sought to be aggressive and imperialistic- although they sometimes used rationalization as well. The perception of war has changed notably since Vietnam. World War I and World War II were seen largely as necessary crusades against an non-human enemy. The entire society was dedicated to war during those periods and the propaganda was ridiculously common place. During Vietnam, both the perception of war on the front and the cries of the populace changed. War became evil when it was not waged on American soil. Even after a few months of fighting in Afghanistan, there were already people protesting the conflict. I would say largely that modernization and the changes which occured after the major world wars and during Vietnam, as well as alterations in training and the perception of conflict, have led to these mortifying statistics.

Taking him perhaps too seriously, I do not think this would account for a drastic change as seen between 1990-2000 and 2000-2010. Because during peace time the suicide rate, while higher, wasn't significantly higher. It's not hard to make the correlation between the stresses of war versus peace, but the fact that it extends so largely to undeployed troops, which again does not play well into 'warrior culture' theories.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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