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Apologies and Forgiveness

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

I'm sorry

Poll ended at Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:31 am

Yes, you are
7
15%
Is a sign of weakness
4
9%
No, you're not
6
13%
Is a meaningless form
2
4%
For what?
18
39%
Other option which you may or may not explain as you see fit.
9
20%
 
Total votes : 46

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Imsogone
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Apologies and Forgiveness

Postby Imsogone » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:31 am

We're taught, whether Christian or not, that if a person wrongs us and then apologizes, we're morally and ethically bound to accept, forgive and forget. I think this is a perversion.

Ok, apologies come in two basic forms - sincere and insincere.

Sincere has one, and only one manifestation - the person recognizes that he/she has wronged someone and is really sorry about it. They go to the person they wronged, offer heartfelt apologies, swear that they will try very hard not to do "it" (whatever it was) again, and they'll try, in one way or another, to make it up. This form of apology should be accepted and the action or lack of action forgiven - though maybe not forgotten (bringing it up at odd, awkward moments is really a bozo no-no, though).

Insincere apologies have boundless manifestations. The two I've most commonly met are the pro-forma apology and the "yeah, but..." apology.

The pro-forma apology is typified by this, someone wrongs you (or vice versa) and says, "Oh, I'm sorry" and you can pretty much tell that they're not sorry at all, they're just saying it as a matter of form. They stand waiting for you to wave it off and say "oh, that's ok" (when clearly it's not ok). Then they go off and pretty much do it all over again, expecting your acceptance and forgiveness for each unthinking wrong and insincere apology. Then they get upset when you finally decide that you've had enough and say "no, it's not ok".

The "yeah, but..." apology is insidious. This is the apology where the person who wronged another actually does recognize his/her action was wrong, but the apology goes somehing like this - "Oh, I'm sorry that I did (insert wrong here), but if you had/had not done such and such, then I wouldn't have (insert wrong here)." The unwritten message is that it's all really your fault and you're the one who should apologize. This form has many manifestations including the "I'm sorry I over-reacted, but you're still wrong" apology.

I feel that these apology types don't warrant acceptance and forgiveness and should not be accorded such. The appropriate response to these is "no, It's not ok and no you aren't sorry, come back when you mean it".

I know that there are some who think that you should accept and forgive every wrong, whether apologies, whether sincere or not, are proffered or not. I know that there are some who refuse to accept any apologies and won't forgive any wrongs.

How do you feel about apologies - do you accept without stint? Do you try to judge sincerity? Do you believe that apologies and foregiveness are signs of weakness? Do you apologize when you're wrong, do you mean it?
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Brogavia
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Postby Brogavia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:39 am

Its a sign of weakness. Never forgive and nevver forget.
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UCUMAY
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Postby UCUMAY » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:43 am

Sometimes I forgive, and sometimes I move on without forgiveness just acceptance. Whatever I do I refuse to stay angry. It's like taking poison and expecting the other person to die.
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Camicon
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Postby Camicon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:43 am

UCUMAY wrote:Sometimes I forgive, and sometimes I move on without forgiveness just acceptance. Whatever I do I refuse to stay angry. It's like taking poison and expecting the other person to die.

^This.
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Call to power
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Postby Call to power » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:46 am

its a bit like the word love in that it originally had a big meaning but is now cheaply used whenever is convenient ultimately undermining value from it (another example would be promises and how you value the promises of people who don't keep them). Its a bit like currency if you like.

Blame spineless people who always apologize even though the word should be used as a "I fucked up, I have learned now and I will not do that again"

We're taught, whether Christian or not, that if a person wrongs us and then apologizes, we're morally and ethically bound to accept, forgive and forget.


not really

do you accept without stint?


no I shamelessly hold them to their mistake until I see otherwise like the true bitch that I am

Do you believe that apologies and foregiveness are signs of weakness?


obv not its an enormous sign of maturity to admit your failings

Do you apologize when you're wrong, do you mean it?


I tend to more hold my hands up and just admit that I fucked up rather than go through some deep professional discussion on the matter
Last edited by Call to power on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Central Slavia
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Postby Central Slavia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:48 am

It's generally dumb and untruthful... most things have more than one person to blame... and in the case they don't you can be sure as hell the apology won't be sincere
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Ninja Sloths
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Postby Ninja Sloths » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:50 am

Brogavia wrote:Its a sign of weakness. Never forgive and nevver forget.


"Never forgive" is an incredibly stupid approach to getting along with people who you need to get along with to ... well, get along with your life.

The only way this would work is if you have a hide like a crocodile and don't feel hurt or wronged by anything. Which would make you ... well, a crocodile.

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Chrinthanium
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Postby Chrinthanium » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:51 am

Forgiving is a verb. It's an action. You do it. Part of forgiveness is letting the wrong-doing go. That takes time. I think, however, that one does have to draw a line at the "My bad" apology, which isn't an apology, just a statement that was the person who said its fault.
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The Norwegian Blue
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Postby The Norwegian Blue » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:56 am

I hate fake apologies, and have no patience for them. Oh, and you left out my all-time least favorite form of fake apology - the "I'm sorry if you..." apology, such as "I'm sorry if you decided to take offense at what I said," or "I'm sorry if you thought I was being selfish." It very carefully avoids acknowledging any actual fault; you're not sorry about what you did, you're just sorry that I objected to what you did.
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Central Slavia
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Postby Central Slavia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:59 am

The Norwegian Blue wrote:I hate fake apologies, and have no patience for them. Oh, and you left out my all-time least favorite form of fake apology - the "I'm sorry if you..." apology, such as "I'm sorry if you decided to take offense at what I said," or "I'm sorry if you thought I was being selfish." It very carefully avoids acknowledging any actual fault; you're not sorry about what you did, you're just sorry that I objected to what you did.

To be honest it provokes less fights that the alternate but equally accurate "Grow a skin, offend-a-tron" :rofl:
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You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

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UCUMAY
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Postby UCUMAY » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:59 am

The Norwegian Blue wrote:I hate fake apologies, and have no patience for them. Oh, and you left out my all-time least favorite form of fake apology - the "I'm sorry if you..." apology, such as "I'm sorry if you decided to take offense at what I said," or "I'm sorry if you thought I was being selfish." It very carefully avoids acknowledging any actual fault; you're not sorry about what you did, you're just sorry that I objected to what you did.

It's easier and more honest to say. "I'm sorry I hurt you."
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Imsogone
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Postby Imsogone » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:00 pm

The Norwegian Blue wrote:I hate fake apologies, and have no patience for them. Oh, and you left out my all-time least favorite form of fake apology - the "I'm sorry if you..." apology, such as "I'm sorry if you decided to take offense at what I said," or "I'm sorry if you thought I was being selfish." It very carefully avoids acknowledging any actual fault; you're not sorry about what you did, you're just sorry that I objected to what you did.


I consider that to be a form of the "Yeah, but..." apology. And, yes, it is both annoying and galling.

In response to a couple of others - I do believe in letting go. That doesn't mean that I tolerate or accept it when someone hurts me, it means that I don't dwell on it. This usually means that I've let go of the person as well, if someone can't be bothered to respect me, then I don't need that person in my life.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:01 pm

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:18 pm

Brogavia wrote:Its a sign of weakness. Never forgive and nevver forget.

That's stupid and it will never work for international policies.

However I think you would know if an apology is sincere or insincere.
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Nekronia
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Postby Nekronia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:24 pm

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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:26 pm

Imsogone wrote:How do you feel about apologies - do you accept without stint? Do you try to judge sincerity?

Yup. One of the best signs of sincerity is that the person who gave offense changes their behavior.

Imsogone wrote:Do you believe that apologies and foregiveness are signs of weakness?

Hardly; they are the oil that lubricates society (well, alcohol helps too ;) ). Without them, it's "Welcome to Hobbes World: a nasty, brutish, and short struggle of all against all!".

Imsogone wrote:Do you apologize when you're wrong, do you mean it?

Of course. And in fact I apologize only when I mean it. I hate smarmy, insincere apologies, so I don't give them. I may be a dick sometimes, but at least I'm an honest, sincere dick.
Last edited by Northwest Slobovia on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pope Joan
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Postby Pope Joan » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:27 pm

Apologies are meaningless pro forma rituals.

We have a local NPR show every Sunday afternoon which mocks these rituals.

Sometimes he offends me (alan chartock npr} but he has led me to despise this shallow eschewing of offensiveness.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:44 pm

I have no problem with the concept of offering, or accepting apologies. This doesn't give me or them carte blanche to up and offend again, nor does it mean that I have to stand there and take it should they turn out to be a repeat offender.

I think you can accept an apology, sincerely, and still have situations where you have to remove yourself from having further harm done. I think it generally, though not always, takes a stronger person to either forgive, or apologize overall - it's a humbling sort of situation. And we as humans, I've noticed, tend to have problems with that, given our 'me first and foremost' natures.

Whether or not the person offering you the apology is sincere or not - you still have the option on whether or not to accept and move on - even if moving on means moving away from them. Accepting an apology doesn't mean you're required to offer the other cheek again and again.

Bottom line, you gotta do what you gotta do, and what you yourself can live with. And no one else has the right to dictate what method to use, or who you should or shouldn't forgive. It's a personal decision, and in the end, you're the one that has to live with it and any consequences that come of your choice.

Of course if you want to go the churchy way of things, then you've got this from God's side of things: 'I will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men'.

YMMV.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:52 pm

I'm willing to accept and give apologies, within reason. I will accept any apology I feel is sincere, and I will offer apologies if I am genuinely sorry or if I feel I need to keep the peace.
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SaintB
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Postby SaintB » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:28 pm

I only apologize when I mean it and I only accept apologies when no harm is done.
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Seperate Vermont
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Postby Seperate Vermont » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:30 pm

I say forgive but don't forget, and make your reasons for forgiving sincere, not forgiving a murderer of a family member just because "it's the lord's will".
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United Dependencies
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Postby United Dependencies » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:31 pm

I refuse to apologize for anything in less I am actually sorry for what I did. Which isn't to say that I don't do things I regret.
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Tokos
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Postby Tokos » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:35 pm

Forgiveness is often a sign of strength if you aren't under obligation to do it. It is rather pathetic to claim you forgive someone when you actually don't have any power to do anything concrete otherwise; it amounts to self-deceit.
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Volnotova
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Postby Volnotova » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:35 pm

Brogavia wrote:Its a sign of weakness. Never forgive and nevver forget.


More a sign of utter arrogance, ignorance and incompetence.
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Coccygia
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Postby Coccygia » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:59 pm

If you wrong someone, you are morally bound to apologize and if possible make amends. But whether the apology is accepted is entirely up to the person apologized to; they don't have to accept your apology.

Personally I have found that an apology can lead to getting along better with a person. Many - perhaps most - people never apologize, so people often appreciate receiving an apology, and think more highly of you for it. In my experience.
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