It's a Choice.....Oh Really?

[Riltonia]

Wrong wrong wrong. Neither homosexuality nor transgenderism are choices. And to an extent, even cross dressing is genetically determined.
I'll admit to having believed the opposite of this for a long time. However as new data was made available, I never miss an opportunity to avail myself of the right to change my views toward other people and groups based on the new data.

Those who insist that these are 100% choices have not looked at all the data.

My God. You acted...sensibly...in the face..of...evidence...
THE FOUNDATIONS OF MY WORLD ARE CRUMBLING

OH NOEZ SENSIBILITY ON THE FORUMS!!!!!!!!!

Ah-hem

Anyways, I don't believe it to be 100% choice nor 100% genetic/mentally as I believe that you are wired originally to be attracted to men, or women, or both however it's the choice of acting on said attractions that makes you straight, gay or bi. That's all I got.

[Wanbeck]

There is clear and conclusive scientific evidence which proves that in humans, as in animals, homosexual behaviour is normal, and can be determined by the brain prior to birth. That is, people are born gay or straight. And no matter what you do, how you bring up that child, whether on a ranch in Texas or on the streets of London, that kid is always gonna be gay. All you can possibly succeed in doing is making him fight, suppress and hide it all his life, but you are utterly powerless to change it. And that is scientific fact. The same goes for gay animals, which is also common.

So let us be under no illusion here. While the debate over homophobia continues, and both sides voice their views, there can be no question on whether people are born gay - they are, it's a scientific fact, and there's as much chance of Sarah Palin's son being gay as there is Ellen DeGeneres.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7456588.stm

[Geniasis]

Case in point: Dolphins.

We all know, that they are gay sharks.

[Innsmothe]

Case in point: Dolphins.

We all know, that they are gay sharks.

Then what are wolves?

The alpha regularly fucks the lesser males to establish dominance.

[Geniasis]

Then what are wolves?

Douchebags.

The alpha regularly fucks the lesser males to establish dominance.

<insert amusing tale about how this mirrors roman sexuality perfectly, while also making a nod to the fact that wolves feature prominently in the origin myth of Roman civilization. Proceed to have a hearty chuckle with your pears, get into a heated argument about dolphins being gay, wake up in SeaWorld with no pants. A normal Monday.>

[Innsmothe]

Then what are wolves?

Douchebags.

The alpha regularly fucks the lesser males to establish dominance.

<insert amusing tale about how this mirrors roman sexuality perfectly, while also making a nod to the fact that wolves feature prominently in the origin myth of Roman civilization. Proceed to have a hearty chuckle with your pears, get into a heated argument about dolphins being gay, wake up in SeaWorld with no pants. A normal Monday.>

Holy shit duuuuuuuuuuuuude, you art awesome TO THE EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!

(Three poorly pieced together memes)

[Geniasis]

I meant to say "have a hearty chuckled with your peers," but I'm so entranced by the mental image of my laughing hysterically to a bowl of sliced pears that I haven't the heart to correct my typo.

[Alien Space Bats]

If this is the video referred to (there are...several others...apparently rabbits like cats...) it looks like the cat wanted to play-fight, but the rabbit didn't understand that (I guess rabbits don't play-fight) and responded by doing the only thing it knows how to do. Why the cat stood for it, I don't know...the cat was probably wondering, "What kinda playing is that?"

Having grown up with cats all my life (one is sitting next to me right now, probably to make sure I properly stand up for the feline P.O.V. on those damned lupine rapists), I'm certain that's what happened. The cat then squirms out from under the rabbit, and its body language shouts: "WTF?!?!? And... and... GOD, what's this stuff you left on my fur?!?!? Damn, I'm outta here!!!!"

[Bear Connors Paradiso]

Homosexuality is GOOD for reducing human population.

I dont see why people have such a problem with it, except that they're afraid of their own hidden desires.

[Sucrati]

There is so many theories on homosexuality, which somehow have been either proven and then dis-proven by people who pay thousands to 'earn' a degree in a subject that produces many quacks among the actual few who are actually competent, however the masses tend to listen to quacks more often than not, not realizing that the particular subject of understanding a human psyche will always change, of which are written down in textbooks of specific education levels, those who read them are forced to see one side's reasons while not getting a full understanding of a subject that has yet to be understood by the people who write the books, those people claim that no one has a choice in regard to most things because of their brain's being 'hardwired' while this may be true in the sense of what had been learned is the only thing that they know, due to one side's views being presented without rebuttal or counter sides shown in said learning materials.

Current 'scientific' research says that homosexuality or sexuality in general isn't a choice, as said above, just because someone 'earned' the degree doesn't mean they are competent in that field.

However, I would like to view sexuality as a choice, but then again, I'm just some speck among the masses, so my opinion doesn't count, no point arguing it, it doesn't matter, I'm wrong, they're right, I would rather see people have the ability to choose who they have as their partner... then again, I'm wrong.

[Sucrati]

Homosexuality is GOOD for reducing human population.

I dont see why people have such a problem with it, except that they're afraid of their own hidden desires.

Maybe China should stop killing it's Homosexual population, after all, they have that 1 child per family law...

[Innsmothe]

There is so many theories on homosexuality, which somehow have been either proven and then dis-proven by people who pay thousands to 'earn' a degree in a subject that produces many quacks among the actual few who are actually competent, however the masses tend to listen to quacks more often than not, not realizing that the particular subject of understanding a human psyche will always change, of which are written down in textbooks of specific education levels, those who read them are forced to see one side's reasons while not getting a full understanding of a subject that has yet to be understood by the people who write the books, those people claim that no one has a choice in regard to most things because of their brain's being 'hardwired' while this may be true in the sense of what had been learned is the only thing that they know, due to one side's views being presented without rebuttal or counter sides shown in said learning materials.

Current 'scientific' research says that homosexuality or sexuality in general isn't a choice, as said above, just because someone 'earned' the degree doesn't mean they are competent in that field.

However, I would like to view sexuality as a choice, but then again, I'm just some speck among the masses, so my opinion doesn't count, no point arguing it, it doesn't matter, I'm wrong, they're right, I would rather see people have the ability to choose who they have as their partner... then again, I'm wrong.

Why do you feel it's a choice?
Why would thousands willingly set themselves up for humiliation, physical violence and even death for something as petty as someone to fuck?
Even without the current research in genetics that would be a pretty poor argument.

[Wanbeck]

You telling me you have sex because you CHOSE woman or man, and NOT because they naturally turn you on more??!!

[Innsmothe]

You telling me you have sex because you CHOSE woman or man, and NOT because they naturally turn you on more??!!

Though, many do choose to go with the other sex, even if it does mean they suffer some trauma because of it. At least mental anguish beats the noose right?

[Demigueris]

The problem with the choice-genetics argument is that there is not a fine line of distinction between the two.

Look at ancient Greece, in the right social conditions people can be convinced to enjoy screwing just about anything. Men, women, little boys, more men. Crazy Greeks.

Anyway, the genetic argument is not entirely a 'programmed' from birth item either. Our current understanding of genetics suggest not ONLY are many of our more complex traits(as opposed to hair or eyecolour) not always fixed at birth, but are also, at least in part, determined by environmental factors and socialization. Your genes at birth very well be perfectly capable of rendering you, to a greater or lesser extent, attracted to people of your own gender.

The difficulty in pointing and saying 'ah-ha!' is that everyone is affected by their genes to a greater or lesser extent. Some people, may indeed, be hard-wired certifiably 100% gay. The fact that men seem to more often be gay than women - despite atrocious social stigmatization - and that their presence transcends national, ethnic and every other boundary we typically associate with populations strongly lends itself to the argument there IS a genetic component linked with the Y chromosome.

We are, at conception, women. The Y chromosome is essentially an add-on pack to convert your standard female human into a guy... and part of that mean reprogramming that determine's what you find totally hot. And sometimes that wiring doesn't happen the way it normally does, which of course, is more likely to happen when you have to change the default settings. It's a leading theory as to why more men than women identify as gay because practically, the only difference is undergoing changes to accomodate the Y chromosome: realistically either the chromosome lends itself to being gay, or the process of integration is inaccurate: or some combination of both.

That fact that 'hot' is a really subjective term, and our genetic heritage has been encouraged to take a very liberal view on it means that our brains probably do wire themselves in alternate conformations to trigger the neural responses and hormones associated with mating behaviour. The mutability of our brain structure, and response to outside social stimuli is another competing factor, but since much of this is downright hostile to gays, it's hard to see this selecting for homosexuality all that often. Odds are, sometimes, regardless of genetics, puberty just happens funny... strike that... it always happens funny, but sometimes you end up liking the same gender.

Nor, for that matter, are most people 100% straight, or 100% gay. While I'm less convinced by the feminist/gender theories argument that 'gender' is entirely a social label, I do tend to accept that it is far more mutable in a social sense that so-called gender essentialists assert: usually on rather specious logic and information.

What it all gets down to is this: it's complicated and the Choice vs. We-Are-All-Robots-Preprogrammed-From-Birth argument belongs in the 1950's, not the 21rst century.

[Wanbeck]

You telling me you have sex because you CHOSE woman or man, and NOT because they naturally turn you on more??!!

Though, many do choose to go with the other sex, even if it does mean they suffer some trauma because of it. At least mental anguish beats the noose right?

Does this change in any way the fact that gay men are naturally sexually aroused by other men and straight men are naturally sexually aroused by women? To say it is a choice is to say men turn you on as much as women do.

[Sucrati]

There is so many theories on homosexuality, which somehow have been either proven and then dis-proven by people who pay thousands to 'earn' a degree in a subject that produces many quacks among the actual few who are actually competent, however the masses tend to listen to quacks more often than not, not realizing that the particular subject of understanding a human psyche will always change, of which are written down in textbooks of specific education levels, those who read them are forced to see one side's reasons while not getting a full understanding of a subject that has yet to be understood by the people who write the books, those people claim that no one has a choice in regard to most things because of their brain's being 'hardwired' while this may be true in the sense of what had been learned is the only thing that they know, due to one side's views being presented without rebuttal or counter sides shown in said learning materials.

Current 'scientific' research says that homosexuality or sexuality in general isn't a choice, as said above, just because someone 'earned' the degree doesn't mean they are competent in that field.

However, I would like to view sexuality as a choice, but then again, I'm just some speck among the masses, so my opinion doesn't count, no point arguing it, it doesn't matter, I'm wrong, they're right, I would rather see people have the ability to choose who they have as their partner... then again, I'm wrong.

Why do you feel it's a choice?
Why would thousands willingly set themselves up for humiliation, physical violence and even death for something as petty as someone to fuck?
Even without the current research in genetics that would be a pretty poor argument.

Because if our society was truly open to allow change to happen, those who are treated like that wouldn't be treated like that, I can't help it that society in general sucks.

If you want to go change things, you have to do it from the inside, basically saying 'you don't have a choice in the matter' is pretty much telling you your screwed for the rest of time.

Why do I feel like it's a choice? I'll tell you why:

Because unlike the majority of the mindless masses, I like to contemplate ALL possible scenarios, and when I try and reason on my beliefs, I'm struck down for them, then again, people are forced to believe in nonsense, somehow I don't want to be controlled by what one side says.

Sure people are treated like crap for their choices, its been like that since the dawn of time, those in power will have those under them ridiculed if they don't sing the same song, its human nature to 'follow the crowd' or 'go with the flow' however, I haven't really been the bandwagon type.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about people bringing each other down, well then again, we would all be mindless robots in a sense.

Sorry if I don't agree with the ideology stuffed down your throat, as much as I pity the situation that people go through for their choices, most find it easier to blame it on something they believe or are forced to believe to be 'chosen' from birth. Why do people have to make life harder when life is hard enough to tolerate?

[Innsmothe]

Why do you feel it's a choice?
Why would thousands willingly set themselves up for humiliation, physical violence and even death for something as petty as someone to fuck?
Even without the current research in genetics that would be a pretty poor argument.

Because if our society was truly open to allow change to happen, those who are treated like that wouldn't be treated like that, I can't help it that society in general sucks.

If you want to go change things, you have to do it from the inside, basically saying 'you don't have a choice in the matter' is pretty much telling you your screwed for the rest of time.

Why do I feel like it's a choice? I'll tell you why:

Because unlike the majority of the mindless masses, I like to contemplate ALL possible scenarios, and when I try and reason on my beliefs, I'm struck down for them, then again, people are forced to believe in nonsense, somehow I don't want to be controlled by what one side says.

Sure people are treated like crap for their choices, its been like that since the dawn of time, those in power will have those under them ridiculed if they don't sing the same song, its human nature to 'follow the crowd' or 'go with the flow' however, I haven't really been the bandwagon type.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about people bringing each other down, well then again, we would all be mindless robots in a sense.

Sorry if I don't agree with the ideology stuffed down your throat, as much as I pity the situation that people go through for their choices, most find it easier to blame it on something they believe or are forced to believe to be 'chosen' from birth. Why do people have to make life harder when life is hard enough to tolerate?

Actually, I read the literature,(Which isn't the Bible, Torah or Koran )and genetic manipulation proves that genetics directly effect sexuality. (As an example the fruitless gene.)
You either don;t understand the approval process or are just bitter that the world may not be to your standards.

[Innsmothe]

Though, many do choose to go with the other sex, even if it does mean they suffer some trauma because of it. At least mental anguish beats the noose right?

Does this change in any way the fact that gay men are naturally sexually aroused by other men and straight men are naturally sexually aroused by women? To say it is a choice is to say men turn you on as much as women do.

I didn't say that, I said that even though sexuality is not a choice, to act against it is, which many gay men do in fear of their lives. (Metaphorical, not literal.)

[Wanbeck]

Why do you feel it's a choice?
Why would thousands willingly set themselves up for humiliation, physical violence and even death for something as petty as someone to fuck?
Even without the current research in genetics that would be a pretty poor argument.

Because if our society was truly open to allow change to happen, those who are treated like that wouldn't be treated like that, I can't help it that society in general sucks.

If you want to go change things, you have to do it from the inside, basically saying 'you don't have a choice in the matter' is pretty much telling you your screwed for the rest of time.

Why do I feel like it's a choice? I'll tell you why:

Because unlike the majority of the mindless masses, I like to contemplate ALL possible scenarios, and when I try and reason on my beliefs, I'm struck down for them, then again, people are forced to believe in nonsense, somehow I don't want to be controlled by what one side says.

Sure people are treated like crap for their choices, its been like that since the dawn of time, those in power will have those under them ridiculed if they don't sing the same song, its human nature to 'follow the crowd' or 'go with the flow' however, I haven't really been the bandwagon type.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about people bringing each other down, well then again, we would all be mindless robots in a sense.

Sorry if I don't agree with the ideology stuffed down your throat, as much as I pity the situation that people go through for their choices, most find it easier to blame it on something they believe or are forced to believe to be 'chosen' from birth. Why do people have to make life harder when life is hard enough to tolerate?

So Sucrati you are saying that you are equally sexually aroused naturally by both men and women? But you make the conscious choice to be straight?

[Innsmothe]

Because if our society was truly open to allow change to happen, those who are treated like that wouldn't be treated like that, I can't help it that society in general sucks.

If you want to go change things, you have to do it from the inside, basically saying 'you don't have a choice in the matter' is pretty much telling you your screwed for the rest of time.

Why do I feel like it's a choice? I'll tell you why:

Because unlike the majority of the mindless masses, I like to contemplate ALL possible scenarios, and when I try and reason on my beliefs, I'm struck down for them, then again, people are forced to believe in nonsense, somehow I don't want to be controlled by what one side says.

Sure people are treated like crap for their choices, its been like that since the dawn of time, those in power will have those under them ridiculed if they don't sing the same song, its human nature to 'follow the crowd' or 'go with the flow' however, I haven't really been the bandwagon type.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about people bringing each other down, well then again, we would all be mindless robots in a sense.

Sorry if I don't agree with the ideology stuffed down your throat, as much as I pity the situation that people go through for their choices, most find it easier to blame it on something they believe or are forced to believe to be 'chosen' from birth. Why do people have to make life harder when life is hard enough to tolerate?

So Sucrati you are saying that you are equally sexually aroused naturally by both men and women? But you make the conscious choice to be straight?

That would make him bi-sexual, not straight...

[Wanbeck]

So Sucrati you are saying that you are equally sexually aroused naturally by both men and women? But you make the conscious choice to be straight?

That would make him bi-sexual, not straight...

I think you missed my point. By saying that sexuality is a concious choice and not a natural urge means that you are naturally sexually attracted to both genders equally, and you choose your sexuality consciously.

By saying sexuality is a concious choice we all make, means that naturally we must all be bisexual, with the ability to choose.

[Cedamar]

Just throwing this in here.

From researcher and author Chandler Burr:

1. Biologists refer to the trait as a stable dimorphism, expressed behaviorally.

2. It exists in the form of two basic internal, invisible orientations. Over 90% of the population accounts for the majority orientation, and under 10% (one reliable study puts the figure at 7.89%) for the minority orientation, although there is still debate about the exact percentages.

3. Only a very small number of people are truly oriented equally both ways.

4. Evidence from art history suggests the incidence of the two different orientations has been constant for five millenia.

5. A person's orientation cannot be identified simply by looking at him or her; those with the minority orientation are just as diverse in appearance, race, religion, and all other characteristics as those with the majority orientation.

6. Since the trait itself is internal and invisible, the only way to identify a person's orientation is to observe the person's behavior or reflexes that express it. However:

7. The trait itself is not a "behavior." It is the neurological orientation expressed, at times, behaviorally. A person with the minority orientation can engage, usually due to coercion or social pressure, in behavior that seems to express the majority orientation -- several decades ago, those with the minority orientation frequently were forced to behave as if they had the majority orientation -- but internally the orientation remains the same. As social pressures have lifted, the minority orientation has become more commonly and openly expressed in society.

8. Neither orientation is a disease or a mental illness. Neither is pathological.

9. Neither orientation is chosen.

10. Signs of one's orientation are detectable very early in children -- often, researchers have established, by age three -- and one's orientation probably is defined, at the latest, by age two, and quite possibly before birth.

Think I'm talking about homosexuality? Interesting, isn't it, because most people recognize it as "homosexuality" right away. Actually, all this above refers to right- or left-handedness. It just happens to apply to homosexuality too, almost exactly.

In fact, I would add another to this list: "both orientations are also found in hundreds of animal species, including both mammals and birds." This is also equally true of handedness and sexual orientation.


---Some very good points have been made about who it's socially acceptable to fuck, and the fact that Greeks (and a number of other cultures, I'd point out) considered male homosexual encounters not only normal but a "healthy part of development." (Here's an irony for you: some modern day fundamentalist Islamic countries such as Afghanistan, where homosexuality is considered punishable by death, also have a tradition of "dancing boys", bachabaze, who are owned by men and used for sexual services -- but these don't count as "homosexuality", apparently.) This seems very likely to be the whole human ability to find sexual gratification wherever it's possible to do so, along with the weirdness which is cultural tradition; but since it isn't about who you are primarily attracted to, but more what's actually just available for sexual gratification -- at least for the most part -- it may only be parenthetical to the points above.

[Kobeanare]

men seem to more often be gay than women

Source?

[Motuka]

men seem to more often be gay than women

Source?

I recall reading that while men are more likely to be exclusively homosexual than women, a much greater percentage of women identify as bisexual, and an even greater percentage (someone said 47%) have engaged in homosexual contact regardless of orientation. That only held true for about 20% of men.

I don't remember where, though. That could be totally wrong.