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Laerod
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26183
Founded: Jul 17, 2004
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Laerod » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:20 am

Eskandapolis wrote:
South Norwega wrote:No it doesn't.

Mass killing was a large part of Hitler's plan. The final solution, the holocaust, these were presaged by events like the Kristallnacht or whatever it was. Mao Zedong contained his excesses to one country, whilst Hitler exported them.

Saying all that applies to Hitler is a statement ignorant of history.

However, only less than 8 million deads can be attributed to planned murders, the rest were part of the war, Hitler didnt have much of a political vision, and the country was ruled by Himmler, Goering and a few others. He had no idea WW2 would turn into that.

A couple of falsehoods that need addressing regarding your low numbers:
1. Commonly, the number of dead in the holocaust is considered to be around 11 million people, 6 million of them Jews.
2. Plenty of people died due to the Nazi policies of starving occupied populaces; in particular the Poles and other Eastern European Slavic peoples (Western Europeans got away much better). These are not usually listed under the holocaust, but most certainly are Hitler's and the Nazis' fault.
3. The war was Hitler's fault. There's nothing wrong with laying the blame for the war dead squarely at his feet. Especially reprisals against civilians for partisan attacks.

Falsehoods regarding Hitler and the Nazi elite:
1. Hitler had a political vision. It was written down in Mein Kampf. Much to everyone's surprise, he implemented it as best he could.
2. These implementations include the following: Attacking France to redress the Versailles Treaty and Attacking Russia/Soviet Union for the gaining of Lebensraum. Now, he didn't anticipate losing, so to that extent you can say that he had no idea WW2 would turn out that way.
3. Hitler was in charge. People swore loyalty to him directly. Göring and Himmler were "in charge" for very, very short times, at the end of the war when the Russians were shelling Berlin. And Hitler still had enough power to get Göring arrested.
4. Claiming that Himmler and Göring were in charge and planned the war is silly. Himmler might have done it, but Göring was strongly opposed to the war because it would threaten his lavish lifestyle and collections of stolen art.

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Angleter
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12359
Founded: Apr 27, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Angleter » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:24 am

Neo Prutenia wrote:3. Adolf Hitler - Thank you for making me live in f*cking Rhineland-Palatinate instead of East Prussia, great job dude.


I've said this before and I'll say it again- you've got Schengen with Poland and Lithuania, now use it. Start with Stettin, and move eastwards from there.
[align=center]"I gotta tell you, this is just crazy, huh! This is just nuts, OK! Jeezo man."

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Nazis in Space
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Posts: 11714
Founded: Aug 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Nazis in Space » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:33 am

Angleter wrote:
Neo Prutenia wrote:3. Adolf Hitler - Thank you for making me live in f*cking Rhineland-Palatinate instead of East Prussia, great job dude.


I've said this before and I'll say it again- you've got Schengen with Poland and Lithuania, now use it. Start with Stettin, and move eastwards from there.
I'm not entirely clear why one would use the Schengen agreement to move to Poland, as opposed to, I don't know... The Riviera?

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Angleter
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Posts: 12359
Founded: Apr 27, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Angleter » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:37 am

Nazis in Space wrote:
Angleter wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again- you've got Schengen with Poland and Lithuania, now use it. Start with Stettin, and move eastwards from there.
I'm not entirely clear why one would use the Schengen agreement to move to Poland, as opposed to, I don't know... The Riviera?


Because East Prussia's in Poland, and if he and all the other expellees see it as their spiritual homes, then off they go. The Americans did it with Texas, and the Jews with Palestine, so why not them?
[align=center]"I gotta tell you, this is just crazy, huh! This is just nuts, OK! Jeezo man."

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Feral Land
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 363
Founded: Jan 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Feral Land » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:41 am

Gorgentia wrote:
Someone's got to say it, so I will

George
Dubyah
Bush

Just 'cause he can't spell.


Prove it
He wrote a book


Prove it -- I don't think Dubyah can spell, let alone write...I sure Laura wrote it for him!
Sighing, he steps off his soap box and takes his daily dose of zoloft to begin a new another day...

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The Monarchy of France
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Jan 10, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Monarchy of France » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:43 am

North Korean leader(s). Period

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Greater Tezdrian
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7249
Founded: Feb 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Tezdrian » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:51 am

1. Mao Tse-tung
2. Josef Stalin
3. Pol-Pot
4. Adolf Hitler
5. Castro
6. Bokassa
Puppetmaster for Hashemite Arabiyah

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Nazis in Space
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11714
Founded: Aug 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Nazis in Space » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:51 am

Angleter wrote:
Nazis in Space wrote:I'm not entirely clear why one would use the Schengen agreement to move to Poland, as opposed to, I don't know... The Riviera?


Because East Prussia's in Poland, and if he and all the other expellees see it as their spiritual homes, then off they go. The Americans did it with Texas, and the Jews with Palestine, so why not them?
Well, I suppose it's not quite as retarded as moving to Palestine... The weather's still all fucked up (Entirely too cold instead of being entirely too hot, but still), but at least it's got enough water.

I'd still move to France instead, but then again, as the saying here (Rhineland) goes - Paris is closer than Berlin.

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Dystopianus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 870
Founded: May 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Dystopianus » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:03 am

There are so many bad leaders it's almost impossible to make a "top 10". Sure, Adolf and Joseph and Pol belong to this list, but what about the hundereds of other bad leaders?

And ITT Nero's evilness is underestimated.
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Anboha
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Posts: 16
Founded: Dec 28, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Anboha » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:09 am

1. Siv Jensen
All the others are amateurs...

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Tagmatium
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16600
Founded: Dec 17, 2004
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tagmatium » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:13 am

There's a whole raft of 11th Century Byzantine rulers who would rate as bad rulers.
The above post may or may not be serious.
"For too long, we have been a passive, tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."
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The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 29219
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:40 am

Tagmatium wrote:There's a whole raft of 11th Century Byzantine rulers who would rate as bad rulers.


Yes, but only between 1025 and 1081, and even then they weren't all bad - and not necessarily all worse than some emperors who came before or after. Basil I's son Alexander and Andronicus II immediately come to mind as respective examples of awful earlier and later rulers.

But if we're having a naming and shaming list of awful 11th-century Byzantines, I'd nominate as particularly poor, in chronological order...

Constantine VIII
Zoe Porphyrogenita
Michael V "the Caulker"
Constantine IX Monomachus
Constantine X Ducas
Michael VII Ducas
Nikephoros III Botaneiates

The picks of the crop there were probably Constantine IX, Constantine X, and Michael VII, who between them were most responsible for the short-sighted weakening of the frontier themes, the equally short-sighted large-scale replacement of the regular army with mercenaries, and the disastrous mismanagement of the aftermath of Romanus IV's defeat at Manzikert.

Rare bright spots in that 56 year nightmare were Isaac I (2 years), Romanus IV (4 years), arguably Theodora (18 months), and very, very arguably Michael IV (7 years), who's undergone a sort of rehabilitation in the last 20 years, but whose achievements (which possibly owed more to his brother John the Eunuch anyway) will always be shadowed by the impact of his epilepsy.

Come to think of it, 1025-1081 was a fairly crap period for Byzantine emperors, wasn't it ;)

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Tagmatium
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Posts: 16600
Founded: Dec 17, 2004
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tagmatium » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:46 am

The Archregimancy wrote:Come to think of it, 1025-1081 was a fairly crap period for Byzantine emperors, wasn't it ;)

Followed closely by the Angeloi.

Although I doubt there was much that could've been done about the 4th Crusade.
Last edited by Tagmatium on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
The above post may or may not be serious.
"For too long, we have been a passive, tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."
North Calaveras wrote:Tagmatium, it was never about pie...

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Sremski okrug
Minister
 
Posts: 3177
Founded: Jul 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sremski okrug » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:13 pm

Pol Pot. He just killed most of his own people for no reason.
IC: The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
The IMF and World Bank are terrorist organizations.
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Yugoslav culture
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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Posts: 5087
Founded: Mar 14, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:16 pm

1. Adolph Hitler
2. Joseph Stalin
3. Mao Ze Dong
4. Pol Pot
5. Mussolini
6. Than Shwe
7. Mary I
8. Robespierre
9. Cixi
10. Nero
"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
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Roman Fasces
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Mar 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Roman Fasces » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:28 am

All democratic leaders that led their countries to wars for democracy and nation-building: G.W. Bush, G.W. Bush Jr., Obama, Tony Blair, etc.

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ChuckNorris0929
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Posts: 12
Founded: Feb 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

...

Postby ChuckNorris0929 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:34 am

Roman Fasces wrote:All democratic leaders that led their countries to wars for democracy and nation-building: G.W. Bush, G.W. Bush Jr., Obama, Tony Blair, etc.


Yes... because going to war in the middle east is so much worse than massacring millions of people.

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Roman Fasces
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Posts: 25
Founded: Mar 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Roman Fasces » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:35 am

What the fuck are you talking about?

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Jasarite
Envoy
 
Posts: 239
Founded: Jul 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jasarite » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:02 am

Roman Fasces wrote:What the fuck are you talking about?


I believe they mean it is better to remove a tyrant than stand by and let them kill innocents.
We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?- Goblin Market-Christina Rosetti

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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54739
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:12 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Vetok wrote:10. John, King of England
Well, let's see. When told that his brother Richard had been captured by Leopold of Austria, instead of forgetting that he'd been left in charge by Richard and given dozens of privileges by him, he betrayed him and joined Philip of France. His insufferable greediness wasn't good for the common tax-payers either.


The idea that King John, whatever his faults, belongs on any list of history's worst leaders is - frankly - risible.


^this. The Lionheart was far worse than John. It's only that the Lionheart got Sean Connery to picture him on screen.

Also I don't understand the hate for Nero. Yes, he wasn't the brightest leader of the Roman Empire, but I can think of worse Emperors. Like, dunno, Caligula or Commodus.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
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SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

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Great Nepal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28677
Founded: Jan 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Nepal » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:13 am

1. Stalin.
2. Mao
3. Hitler
4. Kim Jong

-Personal option takes over reason-

5. Prachanda
6. Jhala Nath Khanal
7. Madhav Kumar Nepal
8. Sher Bahadur Deuba
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54739
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:16 am

I'll limit myself to Europe and the last 100 years...

Hitler
Mussolini
Pétain
Quisling
Chamberlain
Daladier
Stalin
Hoxha
Ceauçescu
Thatcher
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

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Yootwopia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7866
Founded: Aug 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Yootwopia » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:08 am

Ten 20th Century Italians of your choosing.
Last edited by Yootwopia on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Technically a Polanski.

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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54739
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:15 am

Yootwopia wrote:Ten 20th Century Italians of your choosing.


Let's see...

Benito Mussolini
Victor Emmanuel III
Pietro Badoglio
Silvio Berlusconi
Giulio Andreotti
Antonio Salandra
Giovanni Leone
Francesco Cossiga
Bettino Craxi
Bernardo Provenzano
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

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Roman Fasces
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Mar 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Roman Fasces » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 am

Jasarite wrote:
Roman Fasces wrote:What the fuck are you talking about?


I believe they mean it is better to remove a tyrant than stand by and let them kill innocents.

Uhm, yeah... do you have any proof that Middle Eastern leaders are killing their own people?

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