Free market and roads: Greece Vs USA

[Fr33domland]

Capitalist Greece.

This.

[Andaluciae]

At least in my assessment, its incredibly difficult to build roads privately, either from capital investment required, the relative non-rival nature of roads and the network effects that lead to severe barriers to entry...not to mention that all of these things together make roads pretty close to an easy natural monopoly, I don't think privatized roads are particularly efficient or useful.

[Andaluciae]

The US also maintains the interstate highway system as being integral to national strategic defense. Its one of the most hardened transportation systems in the world--and would likely survive even a pretty above nuclear conflict...even if the people to use it didn't...

[Natapoc]

In regards to constructing infrastructure, I've eased my strict free-market beliefs, and favor having publicly constructed roads and bridges. But I also believe that private industry has a role in perhaps maintenance and tolls.

Road socialist

Road collectivist. He's not advocating that road workers get the full benefits of the tolls.

[Sibirsky]

Road socialist

Road collectivist. He's not advocating that road workers get the full benefits of the tolls.

I'm just copying the Block-Friedman convo. Friedman argued for essentially what we have now, so Block called him a road socialist. Friedman didn't like it. I think it's freaking hilarious.

[Natapoc]

Road collectivist. He's not advocating that road workers get the full benefits of the tolls.

I'm just copying the Block-Friedman convo. Friedman argued for essentially what we have now, so Block called him a road socialist. Friedman didn't like it. I think it's freaking hilarious.

It is funny. Friedman the statist authoritarian.

[Anacapri]

How about the system we use in Britain where we pay Council Tax to maintain our local infrastructure?

[Natapoc]

How about the system we use in Britain where we pay Council Tax to maintain our local infrastructure?

It's collectivist much like the system used in the US and quite contrary to free market principles.

[Novograd IV]

Turnpike roads turned out oh so well in the past

[Natapoc]

Turnpike roads turned out oh so well in the past

But this time we have technology to save us! By automatically deducting usage fees from our bank accounts. All hail the techno-capitalist future!

[Novograd IV]

Turnpike roads turned out oh so well in the past

But this time we have technology to save us further oppress us! By automatically deducting usage fees from our bank accounts. All hail the techno-capitalist future!

Of course, I'm a socialist. Still, paying to travel restricts freedom of movement, and there is no viable alternative to the road (not everyone has an off-road car )

[Georgism]

Dunno about the roads, but Greek drivers are insane.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

The result is this.

[Novograd IV]

The result is this.

(Image)

Other means of payment

[Natapoc]

But this time we have technology to save us further oppress us! By automatically deducting usage fees from our bank accounts. All hail the techno-capitalist future!

Of course, I'm a socialist. Still, paying to travel restricts freedom of movement, and there is no viable alternative to the road (not everyone has an off-road car )

I agree! Freedom of movement should be considered a fundamental right as movement is required for most other fundamental liberties.

[Sibirsky]

Of course, I'm a socialist. Still, paying to travel restricts freedom of movement, and there is no viable alternative to the road (not everyone has an off-road car )

I agree! Freedom of movement should be considered a fundamental right as movement is required for most other fundamental liberties.

You two don't have legs?*

Movement, in the case here requires someone to pave huge chunks of land, someone to mine steel, drill for oil, make plastic, manufacture a car, refine oil into gasoline and on and on and on. I'm literally missing several thousand steps here.
*not trying to be rude. Tired of Xomic and his shit.

[Novograd IV]

I agree! Freedom of movement should be considered a fundamental right as movement is required for most other fundamental liberties.

You two don't have legs?*

Movement, in the case here requires someone to pave huge chunks of land, someone to mine steel, drill for oil, make plastic, manufacture a car, refine oil into gasoline and on and on and on. I'm literally missing several thousand steps here.
*not trying to be rude. Tired of Xomic and his shit.

And? that should be payed for by tax, not individuals, otherwise you're restricting the use of consumer goods (car) and the freedom of movement (no, just walking isn't sufficient in modern society)

[Vortiaganica]

I agree! Freedom of movement should be considered a fundamental right as movement is required for most other fundamental liberties.

You two don't have legs?*

Movement, in the case here requires someone to pave huge chunks of land, someone to mine steel, drill for oil, make plastic, manufacture a car, refine oil into gasoline and on and on and on. I'm literally missing several thousand steps here.
*not trying to be rude. Tired of Xomic and his shit.

The steps required include the following:

Production of the car:
-Paint
-Metals
-Tires
-Electronics
-Hydraulics

Production of spare parts:
-Factory assembly
-Metals
-Paint

Drilling for oil:
-Drills
-Works
-Oil rig/drilling station

Refining oil:

I got sick about here.

Transporting raw materials (oil and metals):

Transporting completed products (Gasoline, car):


All of these can be further broken down. I suspect there are statistics for the man hours going into the production of a car on the web.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/toyota-chry ... -1859.html

Around 13.5 manhours for the fastest time listed, Jeep Toledo South.

[Aynistan]

I agree! Freedom of movement should be considered a fundamental right as movement is required for most other fundamental liberties.

You two don't have legs?*

Movement, in the case here requires someone to pave huge chunks of land, someone to mine steel, drill for oil, make plastic, manufacture a car, refine oil into gasoline and on and on and on. I'm literally missing several thousand steps here.
*not trying to be rude. Tired of Xomic and his shit.

QFT. If we are going to accept the batshit crazy idea that people have the "right" to a road for free so they can move around without walking, then it also follows that the have the "right" to a car. So does this mean the government should force more taxes down our throat to hand out "free" cars to everyone?

[Novograd IV]

You two don't have legs?*

Movement, in the case here requires someone to pave huge chunks of land, someone to mine steel, drill for oil, make plastic, manufacture a car, refine oil into gasoline and on and on and on. I'm literally missing several thousand steps here.
*not trying to be rude. Tired of Xomic and his shit.

QFT. If we are going to accept the batshit crazy idea that people have the "right" to a road for free so they can move around without walking, then it also follows that the have the "right" to a car. So does this mean the government should force more taxes down our throat to hand out "free" cars to everyone?

right to consumer products? no. But the point is not really freedom of movement, but the RESTRICTION of movement that this Greek plan provides.

[Aynistan]

QFT. If we are going to accept the batshit crazy idea that people have the "right" to a road for free so they can move around without walking, then it also follows that the have the "right" to a car. So does this mean the government should force more taxes down our throat to hand out "free" cars to everyone?

right to consumer products? no. But the point is not really freedom of movement, but the RESTRICTION of movement that this Greek plan provides.

No one is obliged to provide you free access to a road they build. To do that WOULD be an infringement of fundamental rights. You are not forced to use the road. You can travel an alternative route, or by an alternative means of transportation. It would only be wrong if the government were to enforce a monopoly and make everyone use one single road, which is not what what is happening in Greece. If you do not wish to use the private expressways, you can use slower government owned roads, which citizens are forced to pay for anyway through taxes.

Edit - I was diverted from the main point. Roads are a product. Someone builds them and they are the result of their efforts. They are no less a product of effort than a car, and saying you have a "right" to use a road is no different to saying you have the "right" to a car or a laptop.

[Novograd IV]

right to consumer products? no. But the point is not really freedom of movement, but the RESTRICTION of movement that this Greek plan provides.

No one is obliged to provide you free access to a road they build. To do that WOULD be an infringement of fundamental rights. You are not forced to use the road. You can travel an alternative route, or by an alternative means of transportation. It would only be wrong if the government were to enforce a monopoly and make everyone use one single road, which is not what what is happening in Greece. If you do not wish to use the private expressways, you can use slower government owned roads, which citizens are forced to pay for anyway through taxes.

Edit - I was diverted from the main point. Roads are a product. Someone builds them and they are the result of their efforts. They are no less a product of effort than a car, and saying you have a "right" to use a road is no different to saying you have the "right" to a car or a laptop.

the road is on land, and connected to government roads. cars and laptops are separate objects.

and what 'alternate' means of transportation other than walking, unsuitable due to slow speeds. not everyone lives next to a train station.

Also, i never said free, i said taxed. consider the Scandinavian countries and how well they work.

[SaintB]

I don't like either system.

The US builds roads for public use and then doesn't bother to put in the necessary effort to maintain them and Greece gives them to private companies to run.

I like a system where I pay my taxes and they get used to fix my roads so I have a safe driving environment.

[Novograd IV]

I don't like either system.

The US builds roads for public use and then doesn't bother to put in the necessary effort to maintain them and Greece gives them to private companies to run.

I like a system where I pay my taxes and they get used to fix my roads so I have a safe driving environment.

Britain FTW, eh old chap?

[SaintB]

I don't like either system.

The US builds roads for public use and then doesn't bother to put in the necessary effort to maintain them and Greece gives them to private companies to run.

I like a system where I pay my taxes and they get used to fix my roads so I have a safe driving environment.

Britain FTW, eh old chap?

No I said SAFE driving environment and you guys drive in the wrong side of the road