Free market and roads: Greece Vs USA

[Natapoc]

They?
How the fuck is it *they* who are in debt?
The citizens themselves didn't borrow any money, quite the opposite , they have paid a ton of fees and taxes.
People having shitty salaries compared to expenses will feel underprivileged and rightly so.

Well it isn't as if they were protesting the government when it started instituting it's burdensome social services, and they certainly aren't protesting for further cuts now.

However I concede your point to some degree. They did not intend to burden themselves so greatly in debt but it occurred.

They did not burden themselves. The government burdened them.

[The Merchant Republics]

Well it isn't as if they were protesting the government when it started instituting it's burdensome social services, and they certainly aren't protesting for further cuts now.

However I concede your point to some degree. They did not intend to burden themselves so greatly in debt but it occurred.

They did not burden themselves. The government burdened them.

In what sense? It has been a democracy for the last odd 30 years? The costly programs they've instituted were created by a democratic government.

I hate playing the government's advocate here, but let's not pretend that these people were dragged kicking and screaming to their benefits programs, they voted for them, they burdened themselves (or rather each other) with their debt quite willingly.

We know that the Greek people didn't vote for economic collapse or overburdening taxation, but they voted for programs that they couldn't afford. Now when they can't continue any longer, I don't have a lot of sympathy for their rioting to keep their cake and eat it too.

Again, I hate playing this character, I don't believe that the majority has a right to burden the minority, or that by staying in Greece they were consenting to the burden, but yet, I must say that as a state the government through it's people voted for this.

[Gauthier]

Capitalist Greece.

The same Capitalist Greece that's teetering on the edge of bankruptcy? Heh.

[Natapoc]

They did not burden themselves. The government burdened them.

In what sense? It has been a democracy for the last odd 30 years? The costly programs they've instituted were created by a democratic government.

I hate playing the government's advocate here, but let's not pretend that these people were dragged kicking and screaming to their benefits programs, they voted for them, they burdened themselves (or rather each other) with their debt quite willingly. We know that the Greek people didn't vote for economic collapse or overburdening taxation, but they voted for programs that they couldn't afford. Now when they can't continue any longer, I don't have a lot of sympathy for their rioting to keep their cake and eat it too.

No every party they voted for did the same thing, wasted money on corruption while giving the people small amounts in return.

Alas it does not matter the greek people do not need your sympathy. They have done pretty well at overthrowing oppressors from the Turks to the fascists.

I notice the communist party is getting an increasing percent of the vote in recent elections

10.89% in the 2010 regional elections.

[Natapoc]

Capitalist Greece.

The same Capitalist Greece that's teetering on the edge of bankruptcy? Heh.

Well, the government is embracing free market solutions that the US would not even dream of (such as the topic of the OP: the privatization of roads)

[Sibirsky]

Capitalist Greece.

The same Capitalist Greece that's teetering on the edge of bankruptcy? Heh.

We're talking about roads. I answered the question in the same format as the Natapoc asked it.

[Natapoc]

The same Capitalist Greece that's teetering on the edge of bankruptcy? Heh.

We're talking about roads. I answered the question in the same format as the Natapoc asked it.

They did have to be put in bankruptcy in order to embrace capitalism to such an extreme but I think this is an interesting (if somewhat unethical) experiment in neoliberalism.

Anyone remember "starve the beast?"

[The Merchant Republics]

In what sense? It has been a democracy for the last odd 30 years? The costly programs they've instituted were created by a democratic government.

I hate playing the government's advocate here, but let's not pretend that these people were dragged kicking and screaming to their benefits programs, they voted for them, they burdened themselves (or rather each other) with their debt quite willingly. We know that the Greek people didn't vote for economic collapse or overburdening taxation, but they voted for programs that they couldn't afford. Now when they can't continue any longer, I don't have a lot of sympathy for their rioting to keep their cake and eat it too.

No every party they voted for did the same thing, wasted money on corruption while giving the people small amounts in return.

Alas it does not matter the greek people do not need your sympathy. They have done pretty well at overthrowing oppressors from the Turks to the fascists.

I notice the communist party is getting an increasing percent of the vote in recent elections

10.89% in the 2010 regional elections.

Ahh, I think I follow you now.

I've read that Greece's political system was plagued with reckless vote-buying, something about the Lawyer's Union getting 10% of a tax on Ferries.

[Sibirsky]

We're talking about roads. I answered the question in the same format as the Natapoc asked it.

They did have to be put in bankruptcy in order to embrace capitalism to such an extreme but I think this is an interesting (if somewhat unethical) experiment in neoliberalism.

Anyone remember "starve the beast?"

Yeah, this is sort of what is happening. Too bad it failed here when Reagan tried (pretended?) to do it.

[Sibirsky]

The Natapoc? I was going to say as the OP, but changed it to Natapoc without deleting the. I'm hungry and tired.

[Natapoc]

The Natapoc? I was going to say as the OP, but changed it to Natapoc without deleting the. I'm hungry and tired.

Kein Problem! It's Die Sibirsky's German showing.

[Sibirsky]

The Natapoc? I was going to say as the OP, but changed it to Natapoc without deleting the. I'm hungry and tired.

Kein Problem! It's Die Sibirsky's German showing.

Lol. I wouldn't mind learning German. Better yet Chinese though.

[Natapoc]

Kein Problem! It's Die Sibirsky's German showing.

Lol. I wouldn't mind learning German. Better yet Chinese though.

Ah in case you are not aware people who speak German as a first language often make the mistake of inserting a pronoun incorrectly in the way you did when speaking english.

[Sibirsky]

Lol. I wouldn't mind learning German. Better yet Chinese though.

Ah in case you are not aware people who speak German as a first language often make the mistake of inserting a pronoun incorrectly in the way you did when speaking english.

現在我知道。每天都學到新的東西。

[Natapoc]

Ah in case you are not aware people who speak German as a first language often make the mistake of inserting a pronoun incorrectly in the way you did when speaking english.

現在我知道。每天都學到新的東西。

Χαίρομαι που θα μπορούσα να βοηθήσω.

[Sibirsky]

That language is certainly more fitting for the thread. I'm going to try start reading Walter Block's book, tomorrow. But I'm still working on 50 things.

[Seleucas]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but the govt. of Greece sets these tolls, not private companies.

"A large portion of the country's highways have effectively been privatized, although the government still sets the toll charges."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40990845/Protest ... l_stations

As to which I prefer, I prefer the Greek-style system of privatization over American collectivism, because considering the dire straits Greece is in it makes their terrible fiscal situation a little better, and the tolls are applied to the motorists themselves instead of having the money taken out of general revenues and thereby having drivers being subsidized at the general public's expense.

[Natapoc]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but the govt. of Greece sets these tolls, not private companies.

"A large portion of the country's highways have effectively been privatized, although the government still sets the toll charges."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40990845/Protest ... l_stations

As to which I prefer, I prefer the Greek-style system of privatization over American collectivism, because considering the dire straits Greece is in it makes their terrible fiscal situation a little better, and the tolls are applied to the motorists themselves instead of having the money taken out of general revenues and thereby having drivers being subsidized at the general public's expense.

Ah I was not sure who sets the fees for the tolls. Whomever does it's clear that the toll fees are sufficiently high to be considered very lucrative for companies who bid for it and that companies surly have some input in the process.

[Seleucas]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but the govt. of Greece sets these tolls, not private companies.

"A large portion of the country's highways have effectively been privatized, although the government still sets the toll charges."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40990845/Protest ... l_stations

As to which I prefer, I prefer the Greek-style system of privatization over American collectivism, because considering the dire straits Greece is in it makes their terrible fiscal situation a little better, and the tolls are applied to the motorists themselves instead of having the money taken out of general revenues and thereby having drivers being subsidized at the general public's expense.

Ah I was not sure who sets the fees for the tolls. Whomever does it's clear that the toll fees are sufficiently high to be considered very lucrative for companies who bid for it and that companies surly have some input in the process.

I think it would have been better to have instead issued shares of ownership of the national roads to all Greek taxpayers, in proportion to how much in taxes they paid, and let them deal with the shares as they please instead of following this system of selling rights over the roads to uninvolved companies. But I think that this is still better than road collectivism, and it is tautological that they would need to be able to profit off the roads to buy them; it is a mutually beneficial exchange. The Greek government needs to pay off its debt, and private investors need something profitable to invest in; in doing so, they will be taking care of roads that the Greek government probably would have been unable to.

[Mike the Progressive]

In regards to constructing infrastructure, I've eased my strict free-market beliefs, and favor having publicly constructed roads and bridges. But I also believe that private industry has a role in perhaps maintenance and tolls.

[Cerralvo Island]

Well, the roads in Crete were pretty bad...

Everything in Crete is bad, because the Cretans are insane. The roads on continental Greece, especially the connection Athens - Thessaloniki, are ok though. Have to ask my friends about current toll prices.

I guess you could say they are real cretins.

[Sibirsky]

In regards to constructing infrastructure, I've eased my strict free-market beliefs, and favor having publicly constructed roads and bridges. But I also believe that private industry has a role in perhaps maintenance and tolls.

Road socialist

[Meridiani Planum]

You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.

That doesn't sound fully like a free market. The government seems a bit too much involved.

However, it sounds like an interesting experiment. I would rather pay for roads by how much I use them instead of being taxed for the privilege. I wonder how well Greece is doing with their setup.

[Meowfoundland]

Don't they do this in Australia too? Like when private companies pay for the construction, and can collect tolls for the next so-and-so years.

[Sibirsky]

Don't they do this in Australia too? Like when private companies pay for the construction, and can collect tolls for the next so-and-so years.

I'm sure such programs exist in many nations. We have regular public roads, leased public roads with private operators, and fully private roads here in the US.