
by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:50 pm
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:55 pm

by Wikkiwallana » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:12 pm
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Halt!
Just because these people are stupid, wrong and highly dangerous does not mean you have the right to make them feel sad.
Avenio wrote:Just so you know, the use of the term 'sheep' 'sheeple' or any other herd animal-based terminology in conjunction with an exhortation to 'think outside the box' or stop going along with groupthink generally indicates that the speaker is actually more closed-minded on the subject than the people that he/she is addressing. At least, in my experience at least.

by Sociobiology » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:14 pm
Natapoc wrote:One of the Three things that separate true adherents of the "free market" from posers is belief in a privatized road system. Interestingly I've never seen the current system in Greece mentioned in debates on this topic despite being an example.
The greek system of roads is as much a "free market" as the land system in that favored "free market" zone of hong kong.
You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.
Instead of using the collectivist model of the united states whereby a company is contracted to build a road which is then property of the commons the Greeks have fully embraced a capitalist model by instead leasing the road system to private companies who generate their income from use of the roads via tolls rather then tax payers.
In Greece when driving between cities one shows a special device at regular checkpoints in order to be let through. This device authorizes the company to deduct payment for your use of their roads from your bank account. Surprisingly many of these companies are not greek companies. German companies own large segments of greeks road system. Something adherents of free market capitalism and free trade would applaud.
Which method do you support? Capitalist Greece or Collectivist America?

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:18 pm
Sociobiology wrote:Natapoc wrote:One of the Three things that separate true adherents of the "free market" from posers is belief in a privatized road system. Interestingly I've never seen the current system in Greece mentioned in debates on this topic despite being an example.
The greek system of roads is as much a "free market" as the land system in that favored "free market" zone of hong kong.
You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.
Instead of using the collectivist model of the united states whereby a company is contracted to build a road which is then property of the commons the Greeks have fully embraced a capitalist model by instead leasing the road system to private companies who generate their income from use of the roads via tolls rather then tax payers.
In Greece when driving between cities one shows a special device at regular checkpoints in order to be let through. This device authorizes the company to deduct payment for your use of their roads from your bank account. Surprisingly many of these companies are not greek companies. German companies own large segments of greeks road system. Something adherents of free market capitalism and free trade would applaud.
Which method do you support? Capitalist Greece or Collectivist America?
those are only "Highway" (motorway) roads, not local roads, and they have a public rail system and public buses to, so there is an alternative to private roads.

by Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:31 pm

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:31 pm
Wikkiwallana wrote:I haven't been to Greece or seen it's roads, so I can't compare them to the American roads that I know. Any info on them you could give besides the semi-automated checkpoints?

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:32 pm
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're talking freeways, we have to know how many ramps and interchanges there are per mile. Since those are the controlling factors for designing public ticketing prices for using the roads, those would be where the most critical infrastructure - in terms of traffic flow - would be.

by Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:34 pm
Natapoc wrote:Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're talking freeways, we have to know how many ramps and interchanges there are per mile. Since those are the controlling factors for designing public ticketing prices for using the roads, those would be where the most critical infrastructure - in terms of traffic flow - would be.
Yes but what does this have to do with the collectivist model used in the US vs the free market model used in greece?

by Call to power » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:12 pm
Natapoc wrote:I love Greece!

by Cosmopoles » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:22 pm

by Baltenstein » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:30 pm
Bafuria wrote:Well, the roads in Crete were pretty bad...
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:33 pm

by Aeronos » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:33 pm

by The Merchant Republics » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:42 pm

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:47 pm
Sibirsky wrote:http://www.openmarket.org/2010/11/05/the-problem-with-public-private-partnerships/
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 pm
Natapoc wrote:Sibirsky wrote:http://www.openmarket.org/2010/11/05/the-problem-with-public-private-partnerships/
I'm not sure this is a public private partnership any more then you can say that all companies in hong kong are private public partnerships because all land there is by lease from the government.
It's simply an issue where a company bids to lease a section of road and charges fees for use to make their money rather then charging the government as would be done in the more collectivized system of the US.

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:57 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Natapoc wrote:
I'm not sure this is a public private partnership any more then you can say that all companies in hong kong are private public partnerships because all land there is by lease from the government.
It's simply an issue where a company bids to lease a section of road and charges fees for use to make their money rather then charging the government as would be done in the more collectivized system of the US.
Yes, it's more. Companies in Hong Kong lease space in a building owned by a firm that leases land from the government. There isn't (for the most part) more interference.
I'm wondering how much control the Greek government retains over the operators. And how tolls are set.
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:58 pm
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:59 pm
Natapoc wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Yes, it's more. Companies in Hong Kong lease space in a building owned by a firm that leases land from the government. There isn't (for the most part) more interference.
I'm wondering how much control the Greek government retains over the operators. And how tolls are set.
I don't believe the tolls are set by the government but I could be wrong. I know that some people who work for companies connected with the transportation industry are able to get special reduced rates due to partnership agreements between the various companies involved.
Edit: Also a lease is a lease and the government of Hong Kong DOES set all sorts of terms on leases.

by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:59 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Walter Block once called Milton Friedman a "road socialist."![]()
We have a history of private roads in the US. Especially most of the early roads.
by Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:02 pm
Natapoc wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Walter Block once called Milton Friedman a "road socialist."![]()
We have a history of private roads in the US. Especially most of the early roads.
It would have been more proper to call him a road collectivist. A road socialist would support roads owned and controlled by those who work on them.


by Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:02 pm
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