Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

[Muravyets]

Well that would be geography, not topography, and anyway, for all you know the Americans knew the castle still had survivors, or maybe the roads south east were blocked/dragon infested or whatever.

The whole country, nay, the whole world was infested, remember?
Anyway, that is just one (and not even the biggest) problem i have with the movie, so let's leave it there...

The biggest problem I had with that movie was that it sucked shit. Can we move on now, gentlepersons?

[Muravyets]

I think the concept of dragons evolved from one of man's feral instincts to fear lizardlike creatures (alligators, crocodiles, komodo dragons, etc) and when our ancestors whom knew far less about the Universe than we did saw the remains of giant lizardlike creatures and said "Yep, dragons!"

That was in Asia. In Europe, they said "Yep, giants." See Pliny the Elder's tourist guides to the Greek Islands for all the best places to view "giant bones" (sometimes even identified as the bones of Herakles or the bones of Orestes, etc) in shrines in all the hot ancient vacation spots. I saw a History Channel show about it once't.

A show in the History Channel I missed??!? It must have been on at the same time as Mythbusters.....

It was a good one, too. See, apparently, according to the historians and archeologists on the show, fossils -- more of Ice Age mega-fauna than dinosaurs, but whatever -- were being dug up by farmers and builders all the time around the Mediterranean in ancient times. And since, as is mostly the case, they were only finding partial remains, they couldn't get an idea of what kind of a creature the bones had belonged to. But they did know bones when they saw them. And basically, a femur is a femur and a rib is a rib and a vertebra a vertebra, no matter the size. So, very much like the early modern paleontologists, the ancient Greeks organized the bones they found into a shape that made sense to them. Presto! Giants.

After that, the tourism hucksters took over.

[Ifreann]

According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs “ruled the Earth” for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past. No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old.

This is why creationists don't mix well with science.

Indeed. I thought it was common knowledge that fossils are labelled with date of death, species the fossil is from and circumstances of death.

[SaintB]

That was in Asia. In Europe, they said "Yep, giants." See Pliny the Elder's tourist guides to the Greek Islands for all the best places to view "giant bones" (sometimes even identified as the bones of Herakles or the bones of Orestes, etc) in shrines in all the hot ancient vacation spots. I saw a History Channel show about it once't.

A show in the History Channel I missed??!? It must have been on at the same time as Mythbusters.....

It was a good one, too. See, apparently, according to the historians and archeologists on the show, fossils -- more of Ice Age mega-fauna than dinosaurs, but whatever -- were being dug up by farmers and builders all the time around the Mediterranean in ancient times. And since, as is mostly the case, they were only finding partial remains, they couldn't get an idea of what kind of a creature the bones had belonged to. But they did know bones when they saw them. And basically, a femur is a femur and a rib is a rib and a vertebra a vertebra, no matter the size. So, very much like the early modern paleontologists, the ancient Greeks organized the bones they found into a shape that made sense to them. Presto! Giants.

After that, the tourism hucksters took over.

And I missed it *sniffle*. If it was recent than it should be on History International soon...

[Muravyets]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

[SaintB]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

The Greeks were smarter than that, they were a culture that (mostly) was willing to accept other people's explanations because they were smart enough to realize that they didn't know everything. The Greek Cultuure was pretty mutable and adaptive unlike a lot of modern ones. I kind of have a thoery that more liberal and excepting cultures tend to absorb other cultures into them as opposed to being absorbed. Such as when Greece was conquered by Rome or when the Mongols Conquered China. They simply absorbed the culture of their conquereres and it spread out amongst them.

[Muravyets]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

The Greeks were smarter than that, they were a culture that (mostly) was willing to accept other people's explanations because they were smart enough to realize that they didn't know everything. The Greek Cultuure was pretty mutable and adaptive unlike a lot of modern ones. I kind of have a thoery that more liberal and excepting cultures tend to absorb other cultures into them as opposed to being absorbed. Such as when Greece was conquered by Rome or when the Mongols Conquered China. They simply absorbed the culture of their conquereres and it spread out amongst them.

That sounds sensible, and is supported by the fact that it was Greek influence that lasted and spread over time.

[Ifreann]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

Giants aren't very useful for controlling the masses anyway. Or rather, stories of them aren't, especially not when they can clearly be killed. Probably why maps had HIC SVNT DRACONES, not HIC SVNT.....em.....BIGFUCKERS.

[SaintB]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

The Greeks were smarter than that, they were a culture that (mostly) was willing to accept other people's explanations because they were smart enough to realize that they didn't know everything. The Greek Cultuure was pretty mutable and adaptive unlike a lot of modern ones. I kind of have a thoery that more liberal and excepting cultures tend to absorb other cultures into them as opposed to being absorbed. Such as when Greece was conquered by Rome or when the Mongols Conquered China. They simply absorbed the culture of their conquereres and it spread out amongst them.

That sounds sensible, and is supported by the fact that it was Greek influence that lasted and spread over time.

Roman Ingenuity and Greek Culture combined to create one of the worlds most enduring and inventive societies. Yes it was rather barbaric, but they made advances in technology that are only being rediscovered today.

[Conserative Morality]

Roman Ingenuity and Greek Culture combined to create one of the worlds most enduring and inventive societies. Yes it was rather barbaric, but they made advances in technology that are only being rediscovered today.

Well, in comparison to the surrounding and later societies, Roman/Greek culture was very progressive.

[BunnySaurus Bugsii]

Heya Straughn. Haven't seen you until now on the new server.

That would be my new life with my two little dudes. Not much time for computers as much as diapers, et cetera.
*bows*

Twins?

It hasn't been that long. Must have been twins.

My condolences congratulations!

Have a cigar. Hell, have two.

[Farnhamia]

Adrienne Mayor published a very interesting book back 2000 in which she detailed the Greek myths and how they might have related to finds of fossils in the Eastern Mediterranean. She speculates that legends of griffins guarding gold in Central Asia came from finds of Protoceratops fossils in or near gold-bearing deposits. She also wrote a book on Native American legends with the same sort of take, that fossils of giant creatures lay at the base of some.

[Iron Chariots]

Of course, the ancient Greeks did not make up the stories about giants to explain the bones they found. They used the bones they found to illustrate and claim realism for stories they already had.

Which strikes me as very similar to what creationists are trying to do.

Except that the Greeks treated both stories and bones as more entertainment than the controlling guide to their lives. Nor, as far as I know, did they try to suppress any information that contradicted their stories, nor did they denounce people who did not buy into the bones as proof of the stories.

The Greeks were smarter than that, they were a culture that (mostly) was willing to accept other people's explanations because they were smart enough to realize that they didn't know everything. The Greek Cultuure was pretty mutable and adaptive unlike a lot of modern ones. I kind of have a thoery that more liberal and excepting cultures tend to absorb other cultures into them as opposed to being absorbed. Such as when Greece was conquered by Rome or when the Mongols Conquered China. They simply absorbed the culture of their conquereres and it spread out amongst them.

That sounds sensible, and is supported by the fact that it was Greek influence that lasted and spread over time.

Actually, this claim may be pretty close to the mark. In general, we often see examples of conquerors adopting more elements of the culture of the conquered than the other way around. One common explanation for this is that while one society develops more "culturally," and creates great art, literature, advances in medicine, or what have you, the other develops militarily. But then when the more war-like culture conquers the other, they look around and think "wow, these guys have some really fucking cool shit! Maybe we should be more like them, because then we can also make this really fucking cool shit!"

Roman Ingenuity and Greek Culture combined to create one of the worlds most enduring and inventive societies. Yes it was rather barbaric, but they made advances in technology that are only being rediscovered today.

Well, in comparison to the surrounding and later societies, Roman/Greek culture was very progressive.

Eehhhh, I'd be careful with that claim. Many of the cultures typically degraded as "barbarian" were really quite advanced, and some of them were arguably more progressive than Greco-Roman culture in certain respects, such as, in some cases, the role of women.

Granted, we know less about many of these cultures than we do about the Romans, and much of what we do know is highly suspect-- history is written by the victors, after all.

[Landover Baptist]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

[Dyakovo]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

It's easy, it's poorly written tripe and completely unrealistic.

[Conserative Morality]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

Yes, that is horrible. People thinking. Whatever will the fundies do now?

[Conserative Morality]

Eehhhh, I'd be careful with that claim. Many of the cultures typically degraded as "barbarian" were really quite advanced, and some of them were arguably more progressive than Greco-Roman culture in certain respects, such as, in some cases, the role of women.

Ever hear of a Wicker Man?

[Lunatic Goofballs]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

Jesus told me to question the Bible. *nod*

[Muravyets]

Eehhhh, I'd be careful with that claim. Many of the cultures typically degraded as "barbarian" were really quite advanced, and some of them were arguably more progressive than Greco-Roman culture in certain respects, such as, in some cases, the role of women.

Ever hear of a Wicker Man?

Ever hear of crucifixion? It wasn't just for Christians, you know.

Pointing out that many ancient cultures engaged in violent and deadly social rituals does not in any way address, let alone counter, the point that the cultures the Romans called "barbarian" were as progressive or more progressive than the Romans in some respects.

And anyway, when the Romans called a people "barbarian" didn't that just mean they were from the edges of the empire?

[Farnhamia]

Eehhhh, I'd be careful with that claim. Many of the cultures typically degraded as "barbarian" were really quite advanced, and some of them were arguably more progressive than Greco-Roman culture in certain respects, such as, in some cases, the role of women.

Ever hear of a Wicker Man?

Ever hear of crucifixion? It wasn't just for Christians, you know.

Pointing out that many ancient cultures engaged in violent and deadly social rituals does not in any way address, let alone counter, the point that the cultures the Romans called "barbarian" were as progressive or more progressive than the Romans in some respects.

And anyway, when the Romans called a people "barbarian" didn't that just mean they were from the edges of the empire?

Which cultures were as or more progressive than the Romans, Mury, and in what respects? I would love to learn.

"Barbarian" is actually Greek, and it means someone who doesn't speak Greek, someone whose language sounds to a Greek like "Bar bar bar bar." I'm fairly sure the term was applied to the Romans at one point, and was the standard way of refering to the Persians.

[SaintB]

Which cultures were as or more progressive than the Romans, Mury, and in what respects? I would love to learn.

Now I am not Murv but I can think of Gaul, Egypt, and the Bretons. They where not as advanced, by society wise in many aspects where beyond Rome. The Bretons had many women soldiers, the Gauls had their own system of money, roads, and a council of sorts, and Egypt had several women rulers.

[Saint Clair Island]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

Hint, you're supposed to be trying to convert us, not insult us.

[SaintB]

How dare people question the bible? You unsaved trash

Hint, you're supposed to be trying to convert us, not insult us.

It starts by insulting us incessantly until our self esteem is so low we have to embrace an imaginary set of ethics and laws to feel good about ourselves again.

[Non Aligned States]

It was a good one, too. See, apparently, according to the historians and archeologists on the show, fossils -- more of Ice Age mega-fauna than dinosaurs, but whatever -- were being dug up by farmers and builders all the time around the Mediterranean in ancient times. And since, as is mostly the case, they were only finding partial remains, they couldn't get an idea of what kind of a creature the bones had belonged to. But they did know bones when they saw them. And basically, a femur is a femur and a rib is a rib and a vertebra a vertebra, no matter the size. So, very much like the early modern paleontologists, the ancient Greeks organized the bones they found into a shape that made sense to them. Presto! Giants.

After that, the tourism hucksters took over.

Shouldn't it be titans, if we're going by Greek mythology?

[Poliwanacraca]

There's a blueberry farm a few miles away where my family used to go and pick a few pounds of blueberries each summer, and it is run by a very, very crazy creationist family. They send out little newsletters that say things like, "The crop is looking great this year! We've planted another half-acre, and the bushes are coming up beautifully! Last month, our children picketed outside a public school with signs that read 'EVOLUTIONISTS ARE SATAN!' Little Jimmy even threw a rock at a 'science' teacher! We're so proud!"

I bring this up here, though, because my favorite (in a "I may want to kill myself now" sort of way) line of all time from their newsletters discussed their kids' homeschool project of building a model of a dinosaur, which they described with the cheerful note, "Dinosaurs frequently roamed Europe during the Middle Ages, and knights could win great acclaim by killing them!" It seems I really need to reread the Canterbury Tales, since I apparently overlooked the bit where the Wife of Bath gets eaten by a velociraptor.