Congresswoman Gabby Giffords Shot in Head

[Muravyets]

Stupid is not an excuse. It's the worst case that could possibly be made for them, in fact. It's the one thing a person doesn't want cited as their reason for doing something. As Chris Rock pointed out, "There's no rehab for stupid."

Chris Rock is great.

So is Mark Twain: "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."

Yeah, I get it. You're now suggesting that, feh-meh, who cares because politicians are too stupid to be expected to know better which is -- what? The reason why we shouldn't demand they either learn or get replaced with better ones in the next election?

If you'd like to abandon this side argument with me, by all means please feel free to do so. But these remarks are really adding nothing.

[Caninope]

It could be argued that a sick mind FINDS a trigger sooner or later. Seems we should focus more on finding and treating sick minds before a trigger makes their condition overt.

But keeping triggers away from sick mind would help too. This guy, who supposedly has mental health issues and a criminal background, bought his weapons piece of cake. That is utterly ridiculous and those lax gun laws obviously played a major role in this massacre.

Those were misdemeanors. A felon can't have a gun (except those convicted of unfair trading practices). Are you really saying that we should ban anyone who has wrecked and hit other property (a misdemeanor), anyone who has had drunk and disorderly conduct, shoplifted, trespassed, etc. from being able to have a gun? Lax gun laws had nothing to do with this. His crimes were misdemeanors, and it is hard for someone to give someone a mental health check when you have no legal standing to, besides the fact that it probably wasn't very obvious.

[Muravyets]

Are they responsible for the specific act of violence? No,

So you've been in agreement with me from the beginning? Well the last few pages have been wasted, then.
<snip>

Yes, they have, and I blame you and your badly constructed arguments for that.

[Grave_n_idle]

This is actually an interesting exercise...all the names that sprang to mind at first were non-conservatives. That's kind of freaking me out. I'm having trouble thinking of conservatives who were even shot, beyond Wallace and Reagan, and I can't think of any solid conservatives who were killed for being conservative.

People who would deny us economic freedom make themselves a bigger target to get shot.

Which, unfortunately, says too much about America. Perhaps.

[Galloism]

So you've been in agreement with me from the beginning? Well the last few pages have been wasted, then.
<snip>

Yes, they have, and I blame you and your badly constructed arguments for that.

Oh well. I blame you for knee-jerk reacting rather than actually taking the time to read what I said.

I guess that leaves us nowhere.

[Ashmoria]

But keeping triggers away from sick mind would help too. This guy, who supposedly has mental health issues and a criminal background, bought his weapons piece of cake. That is utterly ridiculous and those lax gun laws obviously played a major role in this massacre.

Those were misdemeanors. A felon can't have a gun (except those convicted of unfair trading practices). Are you really saying that we should ban anyone who has wrecked and hit other property (a misdemeanor), anyone who has had drunk and disorderly conduct, shoplifted, trespassed, etc. from being able to have a gun? Lax gun laws had nothing to do with this. His crimes were misdemeanors, and it is hard for someone to give someone a mental health check when you have no legal standing to, besides the fact that it probably wasn't very obvious.

the impression im getting from the TV is that we need to have a law that denies gun ownership to anyone who seems hinky.

[Nobel Hobos]

I came across an interview with one of Loughner's philosophy professors, which may help paint a deeper portrait of a clearly troubled individual. I don't think it so much matters what his motives in the shooting were, as they would appear to be so fundamentally disconnected from reality to make the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building seem coherent.

What is "crazy" but the attempt to deal with matters beyond one's own mental competence?

Poor fellow was out of his depth. He wasn't mentally competent to participate in the political process at the level he chose (let's say 'activist') and not ethically competent to own a gun.

Slinker is a bad name for a philosophy professor, btw.

---

EDIT:

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the impression im getting from the TV is that we need to have a law that denies gun ownership to anyone who seems hinky.

or slinky for that matter. Reverse the onus of proof, for possession of a gun. That's better than keeping public psychiatric records (which will then be used against people in other ways) to check when applying for a gun. Want a gun? Apply for a license, and then and only then can the government look into your psychiatric history. Licensing is LESS of an intrusion into privacy than a background check. Most people, even in the US, never even try to buy a gun so there is no reason to have their medical history on file like that, where any gun vendor can access it.

[Caninope]

No. Nor should they be.

^this. I'm all for (more and more stringent and more efficient) gun control, but control =/= ban.

I would like a detailed summary on how we can change the gun control laws in the country, short of shredding the second amendment.

[Greed and Death]

I came across an interview with one of Loughner's philosophy professors, which may help paint a deeper portrait of a clearly troubled individual. I don't think it so much matters what his motives in the shooting were, as they would appear to be so fundamentally disconnected from reality to make the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building seem coherent.

What is "crazy" but the attempt to deal with matters beyond one's own mental competence?

Poor fellow was out of his depth. He wasn't mentally competent to participate in the political process at the level he chose (let's say 'activist') and not ethically competent to own a gun.

Slinker is a bad name for a philosophy professor, btw.

IS it bad I think of Gollum from LOTR ?

[Fartsniffage]

What is "crazy" but the attempt to deal with matters beyond one's own mental competence?

Poor fellow was out of his depth. He wasn't mentally competent to participate in the political process at the level he chose (let's say 'activist') and not ethically competent to own a gun.

Slinker is a bad name for a philosophy professor, btw.

IS it bad I think of Gollum from LOTR ?

Who's Stinker?

[Free Soviets]

so far the only thing I've heard of him saying that sounds like it was manufactured entirely inside his own brain is the bit about the government using grammar for mind control.

actually...
(warning, sanity is not helpful in deciphering this site)

[Galloism]

IS it bad I think of Gollum from LOTR ?

Who's Stinker?

The sanitation director?

[North Suran]

^this. I'm all for (more and more stringent and more efficient) gun control, but control =/= ban.

I would like a detailed summary on how we can change the gun control laws in the country, short of shredding the second amendment.

Because there's no middle ground between unrestricted gun ownership and shredding the Second Amendment, apparently.

[Nobel Hobos]

^this. I'm all for (more and more stringent and more efficient) gun control, but control =/= ban.

I would like a detailed summary on how we can change the gun control laws in the country, short of shredding the second amendment.

Shred the second amendment. The first could use some re-writing too.

[Buffett and Colbert]

But keeping triggers away from sick mind would help too. This guy, who supposedly has mental health issues and a criminal background, bought his weapons piece of cake. That is utterly ridiculous and those lax gun laws obviously played a major role in this massacre.

Those were misdemeanors. A felon can't have a gun (except those convicted of unfair trading practices). Are you really saying that we should ban anyone who has wrecked and hit other property (a misdemeanor), anyone who has had drunk and disorderly conduct, shoplifted, trespassed, etc. from being able to have a gun? Lax gun laws had nothing to do with this. His crimes were misdemeanors, and it is hard for someone to give someone a mental health check when you have no legal standing to, besides the fact that it probably wasn't very obvious.

Absoultely. Why should we let drunkards, trespassers, and property wreckers be allowed to purchase weaponry? And legal standing has nothing to do with whether a background check includes one's mental health.

[Galloism]

Those were misdemeanors. A felon can't have a gun (except those convicted of unfair trading practices). Are you really saying that we should ban anyone who has wrecked and hit other property (a misdemeanor), anyone who has had drunk and disorderly conduct, shoplifted, trespassed, etc. from being able to have a gun? Lax gun laws had nothing to do with this. His crimes were misdemeanors, and it is hard for someone to give someone a mental health check when you have no legal standing to, besides the fact that it probably wasn't very obvious.

Absoultely. Why should we let drunkards, trespassers, and property wreckers be allowed to purchase weaponry? And legal standing has nothing to do with whether a background check includes one's mental health.

Because it's a constitutionally protected right, and can only be limited or revoked for very serious reasons.

Regarding a mental health check, medical records are confidential by law.

[The Bleeding Roses]

but so far the only thing I've heard of him saying that sounds like it was manufactured entirely inside his own brain is the bit about the government using grammar for mind control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontypool_%28film%29

The action is set in a small radio station located in the basement of a church in Pontypool, Ontario. The morning team consisting of former talk radio "personality" turned announcer Grant Mazzy (Stephen McHattie), his producer Sydney Briar (Lisa Houle) and technician Laurel-Ann Drummond (Georgina Reilly), start taking reports of bloody, unmotivated riots occurring in town from field reporter Ken Loney in his "Sunshine Chopper" helicopter (actually just Loney's Dodge Dart). As the story unfolds, the radio staff, later joined by John Mendez, a local doctor and target of the initial riot explains that the zombie-like behaviour of the rioters comes from a "virus" of sort spread through certain words in the English language (but not French). Holed up in the broadcast booth housed in the basement of the town's abandoned church, Mazzy and his co-workers are restricted in their ability to warn the outside world and to communicate with each other as slaughter rages beyond its walls.

As Loney succumbs to the infection whilst hiding in a grain silo, Laurel-Ann becomes infected and tries to break into the booth. Unable to get to her prey, she eventually vomits copious amounts of fluids and dies. Mazzy, Briar and Mendez then discover that only the English language seems to be infected, so they survive for a while by speaking other languages. Mazzy is able to cure Briar of the disorder by swapping the meanings of certain words, ultimately rendering them meaningless. As they try to broadcast the cure to other people a French Canadian military unit first slaughters all the affected in sight and then broadcasts a countdown from 10 to 1. Briar kisses Mazzy as the countdown hits 1, and the screen goes to black.

A coda follows the end credits in which the Mazzy and Sydney characters appear in a stylized nightclub or café.

[Nobel Hobos]

so far the only thing I've heard of him saying that sounds like it was manufactured entirely inside his own brain is the bit about the government using grammar for mind control.

actually...
(warning, sanity is not helpful in deciphering this site)

The four pages I looked at were in ALL CAPS. That's a huge hint.

What I actually managed to read was like Time Cube, but with a Law theme instead of Natural Philosophy.

Some people just can't acknowledge that a subject is beyond them. And I say this as someone who enjoys both physics and law, but acknowledges that serious contributions to either subject are beyond me. Politics? Well, that's a wide field and anyone can make some contribution if they know their limits.

[Muravyets]

Yes, they have, and I blame you and your badly constructed arguments for that.

Oh well. I blame you for knee-jerk reacting rather than actually taking the time to read what I said.

I guess that leaves us nowhere.

No, it leaves us at the conclusion that you didn't know what my argument was, but I still disagree with yours. Seems like as good a place as any to leave off.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Absoultely. Why should we let drunkards, trespassers, and property wreckers be allowed to purchase weaponry? And legal standing has nothing to do with whether a background check includes one's mental health.

Because it's a constitutionally protected right, and can only be limited or revoked for very serious reasons.

This is not a serious reason? Six people, including a nine year old girl and a federal judge are dead. A congresswoman is in critical condition. I think this is serious.

And besides, didn't you say that the Second Amendment should be changed to read:

"All citizens of the United States have the right to keep firearms and to bear them into any place that has not been deemed by Congress a qualified secure zone.

Exceptions: Citizens who have already been convicted of violent crime, those already proven to be suffering from physical or mental illness to the extent that they cannot use a firearm properly, and those under a reasonable age to be set by the state, not to exceed 18, do not have this right.

Regarding a mental health check, medical records are confidential by law.

Your medical records are reviewed by the military when you are signing up. If you have a mental condition that would impair your abilities, you're refused admission is my understanding. I.e. they don't trust crazy people with guns and to make sure they don't get them, they perform a medical background check. The same should happen when registering for a gun license.

[Muravyets]

so far the only thing I've heard of him saying that sounds like it was manufactured entirely inside his own brain is the bit about the government using grammar for mind control.

actually...
(warning, sanity is not helpful in deciphering this site)

Wowie-zowie. So what we're learning is that even that bit of lunacy is something Loughner picked up from outside sources. Yet there are those who insist it is ridiculous or worse to argue that the prevailing rhetoric of violence and destructiveness in public discourse may have influenced his actions, when he seems quite clearly to have trolled the world looking for influences to give shape to his thoughts and actions. Even the weirdest stuff he said wasn't invented by him.

EDIT: Also, thanks to TBR for the link to the movie. That sounds pretty good, actually, and it stars the immortal Miss Stephen McHattie (of "Whatever Happened to Rosemary's Baby" fame, and who also gave a stellar performance as a Glen Beck type lunatic (complete with chalkboard) in the Canadian/German sci-fi series Lexx). I'd watch it.

[Neumilaq Warshbaague]

Six dead, 13 wounded. Gunman stopped by two bystanders. Among the dead: head federal judge of the district and a nine year old girl. Gifford in critical condition with gunshot wound to the head. Probably not to live. Thank you to all partisan drones, because of your mindless allegiances to divisionism innocent people are dying and chaos is enveloping our world. Our nation should be prosperous NOW. Do we lack any of what's required to eliminate poverty, homelessness, pollution, dirty business, gang violence, drug addiction, world hunger? No. We lack compassion, we lack perception, we lack initiative. We are caught inside of imaginary traps of our own making. Dowjones and Nasdaq may employ us one moment, destroy our lives the next, starve our children. What Damned number figured by any Damned buffoon ought to have the power to shape our world so much that a we lie at its mercy awaiting its order to slit the throats of ourselves, our loved ones, our neighbors? I say take back life, take back the world, put fate back in the hands of the people that the sweat of a man's brow may be enough once more.

[Nobel Hobos]

but so far the only thing I've heard of him saying that sounds like it was manufactured entirely inside his own brain is the bit about the government using grammar for mind control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontypool_%28film%29

The action is set in a small radio station located in the basement of a church in Pontypool, Ontario. The morning team consisting of former talk radio "personality" turned announcer Grant Mazzy (Stephen McHattie), his producer Sydney Briar (Lisa Houle) and technician Laurel-Ann Drummond (Georgina Reilly), start taking reports of bloody, unmotivated riots occurring in town from field reporter Ken Loney in his "Sunshine Chopper" helicopter (actually just Loney's Dodge Dart). As the story unfolds, the radio staff, later joined by John Mendez, a local doctor and target of the initial riot explains that the zombie-like behaviour of the rioters comes from a "virus" of sort spread through certain words in the English language (but not French). Holed up in the broadcast booth housed in the basement of the town's abandoned church, Mazzy and his co-workers are restricted in their ability to warn the outside world and to communicate with each other as slaughter rages beyond its walls.

As Loney succumbs to the infection whilst hiding in a grain silo, Laurel-Ann becomes infected and tries to break into the booth. Unable to get to her prey, she eventually vomits copious amounts of fluids and dies. Mazzy, Briar and Mendez then discover that only the English language seems to be infected, so they survive for a while by speaking other languages. Mazzy is able to cure Briar of the disorder by swapping the meanings of certain words, ultimately rendering them meaningless. As they try to broadcast the cure to other people a French Canadian military unit first slaughters all the affected in sight and then broadcasts a countdown from 10 to 1. Briar kisses Mazzy as the countdown hits 1, and the screen goes to black.

A coda follows the end credits in which the Mazzy and Sydney characters appear in a stylized nightclub or café.

I'd congratulate you on writing such a long post, displaying a grasp of some subject ... but then I clicked your link and discovered that you didn't write one word of that.

Oh well. Maybe you'll shape up yet.

[Caninope]

I would like a detailed summary on how we can change the gun control laws in the country, short of shredding the second amendment.

Because there's no middle ground between unrestricted gun ownership and shredding the Second Amendment, apparently.

Nice strawman. I want to see the proposals you guys come up, short of the recently expanded 2nd amendment. If you had looked at my post, you'd have known that.

[Galloism]

Oh well. I blame you for knee-jerk reacting rather than actually taking the time to read what I said.

I guess that leaves us nowhere.

No, it leaves us at the conclusion that you didn't know what my argument was, but I still disagree with yours. Seems like as good a place as any to leave off.

Given you just said you agree with the argument I've been espousing all along, that you've been arguing against for pages, and saying you disagree with, I'd say we're both guilty of that.

Regarding the "culture causing" thing, I never made any argument at all, so you persisted in arguing against an argument I never made, addressed, or even really approached.

Consequently, until we got to your long post where you clarified your position, we were playing football in different stadiums. Why did you waste my time?