[Scrapped]

[Narodniki]

Big brother is watching you.
Why not have cameras in every toilet, street corner, home and workplace?
When does it stop? America is well and truly on the path of becoming a police state.

[Chrobalta]

Big brother is watching you.
Why not have cameras in every toilet, street corner, home and workplace?
When does it stop? America is well and truly on the path of becoming a police state.

This.

I for one think we need to dismantle our state's big brother features.

[The Minor Countries]

i'm 15, i haven't broken a rule and a damn lot have been broken against me.

Get over it and have some fun. When you turn 18 everything that's not a felony gets wiped rom your record anyway.

And how is that a good thing? Break as many rules and laws as possible before you turn 18? Not bright dude.

[Hayteria]

I recall that in grade 6, a group of people in the class took stuff out of the substitute teacher's purse and then threw it on my desk right before I came in to make it look like I did it... and no one in the class ever said that I didn't except myself. Now, for what it's worth, I'm not sure if they all wanted me to get in trouble for it or not, but it doesn't matter, because even if they DIDN'T, they sure didn't do anything about it.

I think this particular example is more of a question about school policy (why were the students permitted to be in the classroom unsupervised?) than for a need for surveillance cameras.

I personally think the money spent kitting schools out with such cameras could be directed to more worthwhile things.

... such as?

And I don't recall why they were unsupervised, but one thing's for sure; teachers can't see everything that's going on, and they could be easily fooled by a manipulative enough student. Wouldn't it be better to have cameras so we could have video proof of what REALLY happened?

[Hayteria]

Waste of bandwidth. Students that don't care enough to show up don't deserve it.

My university did that. Some people didnt turn up to class as they could download and skim through a lecture back home. It was justified due to clashes of classes and work

Still it is pointless to have cameras everywhere if the discipline wont change. How many schools really dont know who the trouble makers are? They might not want to identify people as trouble makers as this may be followed by the need to do something but I seriously doubt a teacher does not know which groups are doing the damage

Again, a teacher can be fooled if certain students are manipulative enough. We need something better than that.

[Dazchan]

I think this particular example is more of a question about school policy (why were the students permitted to be in the classroom unsupervised?) than for a need for surveillance cameras.

I personally think the money spent kitting schools out with such cameras could be directed to more worthwhile things.

... such as?

Of the top of my head?

Support staff, professional development, technology, up-to-date resources and textbooks, renovating the school's facilities, replacing broken equipment...

And I don't recall why they were unsupervised, but one thing's for sure; teachers can't see everything that's going on,

As I said, your example could be resolved by bringing that school's policies regarding students entering classrooms in line with most: students should not be permitted to enter classrooms without supervision.

and they could be easily fooled by a manipulative enough student.

Teachers know what's going on 99% of the time. We're not as stupid as you seem to think we are.

Wouldn't it be better to have cameras so we could have video proof of what REALLY happened?

They're an unnecessary expense, and they're not as effective as you'd think, based on what others have said. Also, unless the camera is some sort of futuristic model with a 360-degree field of view, it wouldn't take an intelligent kid too long to work out exactly where to go to avoid being caught.

EDIT: I've just Googled a security company and put together a rough estimate. The cost of kitting every classroom, corridor, hat room, playground and other rooms that students access in my school is $28,487, and that's being conservative. That's twice as much as my school spends in a year on kitting out the computer lab.

[Zeth Rekia]

Well, my suggestion wasn't a discipline strategy. At all...

[Georgism]

But did it help provide proof such that the person who did it would get punished? If so, then this would at least deter said person from "giving a black eye" to other students.

No, actually, the camera was not examined at all.

On the other hand, at my school they were helpful when one kid decided to pull a knife on me. He was searched later by the site policeman and there was nothing on him. They had to check CCTV to show I wasn't lying, and he got expelled.

Usually they're a waste of time, but they can be helpful *shrug*

[Hayteria]

Support staff, professional development, technology, up-to-date resources and textbooks, renovating the school's facilities, replacing broken equipment...

Replacement of broken equipment and the more necessary of renovations are fine, (at my school it is not considered a problem to pay for that anyway) but I have to question the necessity, again, of having textbooks for all students, or of... hey wait, when you say technology and professional development, which varieties of each are you referring to?

As I said, your example could be resolved by bringing that school's policies regarding students entering classrooms in line with most: students should not be permitted to enter classrooms without supervision.

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

Teachers know what's going on 99% of the time. We're not as stupid as you seem to think we are.

Who says it is a matter of stupidity? All that is needed is for the student to outsmart you, and that could just as easily reflect on the intelligence of the student as on the supposed stupidity of the teacher. (And that is without taking into account effects of circumstance on how manipulatable one is.)

If teachers' judgement is so sound, why are their methods of discipline so ineffective at deterring bullying?

They're an unnecessary expense, and they're not as effective as you'd think, based on what others have said.

I have already counteracted the reasoning with which others interpret these things though. At the very least, these cases should not be assumed to be a representative sample of cases and it would be better to go by the logic ITSELF.

Also, unless the camera is some sort of futuristic model with a 360-degree field of view, it wouldn't take an intelligent kid too long to work out exactly where to go to avoid being caught.

If the camera is in one corner of the classroom and is pointed at the rest of it, the only part not covered, geometrically speaking, would be the part just below the camera in that corner. I do not think this would be a very large region. At the very least, what happens on-screen would still give a better idea what was going on off-screen than having nothing would be.

[Esternial]

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

[Dazchan]

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

Exactly, which is why every school except Hayteria's does not allow this.

[Hayteria]

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

IIRC, said substitute teacher needed to leave quickly, and did not anticipate what would happen while she was gone. Also, given her reassuring tone towards me after the incident, the last thing I would ever want is for her to get sued.

Really, I would rather punishment be given to the students who actually did this shit than the teacher who merely failed to stop it.

[Esternial]

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

IIRC, said substitute teacher needed to leave quickly, and did not anticipate what would happen while she was gone. Also, given her reassuring tone towards me after the incident, the last thing I would ever want is for her to get sued.

Really, I would rather punishment be given to the students who actually did this shit than the teacher who merely failed to stop it.

Not everyone shares your logic, including the law.

[Hayteria]

IIRC, said substitute teacher needed to leave quickly, and did not anticipate what would happen while she was gone. Also, given her reassuring tone towards me after the incident, the last thing I would ever want is for her to get sued.

Really, I would rather punishment be given to the students who actually did this shit than the teacher who merely failed to stop it.

Not everyone shares your logic, including the law.

Then the law is wrong. Punishment should be focused on wrongdoers, not those who merely fail to stop them.

[Esternial]

Not everyone shares your logic, including the law.

Then the law is wrong. Punishment should be focused on wrongdoers, not those who merely fail to stop them.

They will be punished, but so will the teacher. He is responsible for the class and if he leaves the class, even for a moment, he will be partly responsible if anything happens.

[Newmanistan]

I recall that in grade 6, a group of people in the class took stuff out of the substitute teacher's purse and then threw it on my desk right before I came in to make it look like I did it... and no one in the class ever said that I didn't except myself. Now, for what it's worth, I'm not sure if they all wanted me to get in trouble for it or not, but it doesn't matter, because even if they DIDN'T, they sure didn't do anything about it.

Don't know if this has been said in any of the seven pages of responses as I haven't read them, but, what I have bolded should have clued any teacher with common sense that it WASN'T you. No one would have been that openly obvious about this infraction.

As for cameras in public schools: Never gonna happen due to all-powerful, all-mighty teacher unions. Because then their performance could be monitored better. While the good teachers would say sure, bring them on, there's enough bad teachers out there that would convince the union to not allow this to happen and have them fight for it. The union will say its for the kids.... but yeah, we know better.

[Hayteria]

Then the law is wrong. Punishment should be focused on wrongdoers, not those who merely fail to stop them.

They will be punished, but so will the teacher. He is responsible for the class and if he leaves the class, even for a moment, he will be partly responsible if anything happens.

Fair enough, but the reality is, without some means of knowing what went on, the wrongdoing students who had a more significant part in said wrongdoing would get away with it.

EDIT: And Newmanistan, that's a typo. *Is off to fix it.*

[Esternial]

As for cameras in public schools: Never gonna happen due to all-powerful, all-mighty teacher unions. Because then their performance could be monitored better. While the good teachers would say sure, bring them on, there's enough bad teachers out there that would convince the union to not allow this to happen and have them fight for it. The union will say its for the kids.... but yeah, we know better.

Privacy and all that.

[Dazchan]

Support staff, professional development, technology, up-to-date resources and textbooks, renovating the school's facilities, replacing broken equipment...

Replacement of broken equipment and the more necessary of renovations are fine, (at my school it is not considered a problem to pay for that anyway) but I have to question the necessity, again, of having textbooks for all students,

I had 31 children in my class last year. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: if you expect me to provide an education for 31 children, I will need the resources to cater for 31 children.

or of... hey wait, when you say technology and professional development, which varieties of each are you referring to?

Technology at our school is a computer lab of 31 computers, plus 2-3 computers in each classroom, an interactive whiteboard in each classroom (cost of cameras using my previous estimate would kit out 3 classrooms with interactive whiteboards!), data projectors for incidental use, laser printers, photocopiers, software, consumables, outsourced network admin, network infrastructure... you know, the standard stuff.

In terms of professional development, I would expect the bare minimum to maintain a teacher's accreditation. Where I am, that's around $6,000 per teacher every 5 years.

As I said, your example could be resolved by bringing that school's policies regarding students entering classrooms in line with most: students should not be permitted to enter classrooms without supervision.

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

Doesn't matter. Still illegal, unprofessional and not allowed.

Teachers know what's going on 99% of the time. We're not as stupid as you seem to think we are.

Who says it is a matter of stupidity? All that is needed is for the student to outsmart you, and that could just as easily reflect on the intelligence of the student as on the supposed stupidity of the teacher. (And that is without taking into account effects of circumstance on how manipulatable one is.)

If teachers' judgement is so sound, why are their methods of discipline so ineffective at deterring bullying?

If a doctor's judgement is so sound, why are their methods of treatment so ineffective at curing cancer?

They're an unnecessary expense, and they're not as effective as you'd think, based on what others have said.

I have already counteracted the reasoning with which others interpret these things though. At the very least, these cases should not be assumed to be a representative sample of cases and it would be better to go by the logic ITSELF.

No, it would be better to use case studies to determine their effectiveness. This is what happens in the real world when you want an organisation to spend obscene amounts of money.

Also, unless the camera is some sort of futuristic model with a 360-degree field of view, it wouldn't take an intelligent kid too long to work out exactly where to go to avoid being caught.

If the camera is in one corner of the classroom and is pointed at the rest of it, the only part not covered, geometrically speaking, would be the part just below the camera in that corner. I do not think this would be a very large region. At the very least, what happens on-screen would still give a better idea what was going on off-screen than having nothing would be.

Playing around with my webcam in a square room (most classrooms I've taught in are square), I'm almost certain that you're wrong. Two cameras in opposite corners might do it, but one camera in one corner leads to blind spots.

[Georgism]

Playing around with my webcam in a square room (most classrooms I've taught in are square), I'm almost certain that you're wrong. Two cameras in opposite corners might do it, but one camera in one corner leads to blind spots.

What about using one of those funny lenses?

[Esternial]

Playing around with my webcam in a square room (most classrooms I've taught in are square), I'm almost certain that you're wrong. Two cameras in opposite corners might do it, but one camera in one corner leads to blind spots.

What about using one of those funny lenses?

Or a one way see-through mirror, while we're at it.

[Port-du-sud]

The government of Port-du-sud recently banned surveillance cameras for this reasons :

-inefficient to reduce Crime. Someone really motivated for a Crime will not be stopped by cameras, and you can't put cameras everywhere, in all Streets, behind every tree....

- Citizen's rights. 98 % of filmed citizens are honest persons, and it's uncomfortable to know that you are filmed everywhere.

- The cost. it's very expensive ( maintenance, electricity, installation...)

We prefer to focus on prevention.

[Hayteria]

I had 31 children in my class last year. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: if you expect me to provide an education for 31 children, I will need the resources to cater for 31 children.

But some resources, like textbooks, seem to me to suggest a wasteful approach to education anyway. Like I asked earlier, why can't they just use a combination of online and class notes, or something like that? What's the need of textbooks if they cover pretty much the same subjects as are covered in class anyway?

Hell, how many students even bother with the assigned textbook sections anyway? o.o

Technology at our school is a computer lab of 31 computers, plus 2-3 computers in each classroom, an interactive whiteboard in each classroom (cost of cameras using my previous estimate would kit out 3 classrooms with interactive whiteboards!), data projectors for incidental use, laser printers, photocopiers, software, consumables, outsourced network admin, network infrastructure... you know, the standard stuff.

A computer lab for the school is pretty standard, I guess, but 2-3 computers for every classroom... not sure about that one. Why is a computer worth more for a classroom than a surveillance camera?

As for interactive whiteboards, why do you need them? And what do you base your "estimate" on?

In terms of professional development, I would expect the bare minimum to maintain a teacher's accreditation. Where I am, that's around $6,000 per teacher every 5 years.

As in, teacher has an education diploma? As far as I was aware that was necessary to even be hired as a teacher to begin with. o.o

If a doctor's judgement is so sound, why are their methods of treatment so ineffective at curing cancer?

Because cancer doesn't have a cure?

For your analogy to apply to my arguments, bullying would have to be just as inherently undeterrable as cancer is uncurable. I'm inclined to doubt this.

Two cameras in opposite corners might do it, but one camera in one corner leads to blind spots.

How big would the blind spots be, though?

Okay, so if we had two cameras in opposite corners for each classroom, how expensive would this be, why would it be so expensive, and why wouldn't there be a way around this?

[Dazchan]

I had 31 children in my class last year. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: if you expect me to provide an education for 31 children, I will need the resources to cater for 31 children.

But some resources, like textbooks, seem to me to suggest a wasteful approach to education anyway. Like I asked earlier, why can't they just use a combination of online and class notes, or something like that? What's the need of textbooks if they cover pretty much the same subjects as are covered in class anyway?

Um... I use the textbook as one of my teaching strategies to cover the content in class. What did you think they were, paperweights?

Hell, how many students even bother with the assigned textbook sections anyway? o.o

Thirty out of the thirty-one students I had last year. The other one was on a special learning program and had work tailored to his needs.

Technology at our school is a computer lab of 31 computers, plus 2-3 computers in each classroom, an interactive whiteboard in each classroom (cost of cameras using my previous estimate would kit out 3 classrooms with interactive whiteboards!), data projectors for incidental use, laser printers, photocopiers, software, consumables, outsourced network admin, network infrastructure... you know, the standard stuff.

A computer lab for the school is pretty standard, I guess, but 2-3 computers for every classroom... not sure about that one. Why is a computer worth more for a classroom than a surveillance camera?

Well, a surveillance camera would provide a safety net in the unlikely event that I break the law and leave a bunch of kids unsupervised. On the other hand, a computer allows me to challenge and extend my gifted students, provide remedial support of my lower-ability students, set fast-finisher activities for students who complete their work (ranging from research assignments to publishing their writing), give students access to information that I can't personally provide, allow students to communicate with students in other schools/states/countries... the list is endless.

As for interactive whiteboards, why do you need them?

Teaching is a lot better with an IWB. The students are more attentive, and they allow me to model things that would be impossible/cumbersome on a chalkboard. They don't make a learning experience, but enhance one quite nicely.

And what do you base your "estimate" on?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you merely didn't see my edit to the earlier post, where I provided the costing for kitting out my school with cameras.

In terms of professional development, I would expect the bare minimum to maintain a teacher's accreditation. Where I am, that's around $6,000 per teacher every 5 years.

As in, teacher has an education diploma? As far as I was aware that was necessary to even be hired as a teacher to begin with. o.o

It varies from place to place, but where I am, it's a four-year university degree, followed by a one-year probationary period, during which you have to put together a body of evidence to show that you apply the elements of quality teaching in your practice. Then after that, you have to do 100 hours of professional development every five years, 50 of which have to be from a specific list of courses.

If a doctor's judgement is so sound, why are their methods of treatment so ineffective at curing cancer?

Because cancer doesn't have a cure?

For your analogy to apply to my arguments, bullying would have to be just as inherently undeterrable as cancer is uncurable. I'm inclined to doubt this.

Actually, some forms of cancer are curable. Cancer is an umbrella term that covers about a thousand different medical conditions. There will never be a cure for "cancer", because the only thing that the different cancers have in common is the label we apply to them.

Likewise, bullying is an umbrella term that we use for various forms of behaviour. Teachers deter a lot of bullying, more than you'd be prepared to give us credit for. There is no easy solution, which is why we work so hard. Sadly, this thread has shown that cameras do less to deter bullying than you want to believe they do.

Two cameras in opposite corners might do it, but one camera in one corner leads to blind spots.

How big would the blind spots be, though?

It gave me enough room to dance naked without showing my moobs to my MSN contacts.

Okay, so if we had two cameras in opposite corners for each classroom, how expensive would this be, why would it be so expensive, and why wouldn't there be a way around this?

I'm not inclined to answer questions that I've already answered.

[Hayteria]

Um... I use the textbook as one of my teaching strategies to cover the content in class. What did you think they were, paperweights?

Question is, do the STUDENTS need the textbooks themselves?

Thirty out of the thirty-one students I had last year. The other one was on a special learning program and had work tailored to his needs.

You really sure you should assume every that student outside the special learning program actually read the assigned textbook sections?

What level of school are you teaching? And what subject?

Well, a surveillance camera would provide a safety net in the unlikely event that I break the law and leave a bunch of kids unsupervised.

Or that they do something while your back is turned, such as when you are writing on the board. Or that they do something in the hallway. Or that they do something in the playground that teachers happened not to see. Leaving kids unsupervised is not the only circumstance in which surveillance cameras would come in handy. Hell, even putting aside the idea of cameras in classrooms, what about limited placement of cameras, in specific areas like certain hallways or the cafeteria?

On the other hand, a computer allows me to challenge and extend my gifted students, provide remedial support of my lower-ability students

It also would be helpful if each group of people had better protection from bullying and the like, seeing as how both groups tend to be targeted by bullies. o.o

give students access to information that I can't personally provide

Why could they not use the computers at home? Or for the few who do not have computers at home, why is the computer lab not sufficient for this kind of stuff?

Teaching is a lot better with an IWB. The students are more attentive

To the material, or to the IWB?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you merely didn't see my edit to the earlier post, where I provided the costing for kitting out my school with cameras.

That was according to a private security company. Why not hire public engineers to come up with some alternative means of surveillance instead?

It varies from place to place, but where I am, it's a four-year university degree, followed by a one-year probationary period, during which you have to put together a body of evidence to show that you apply the elements of quality teaching in your practice. Then after that, you have to do 100 hours of professional development every five years, 50 of which have to be from a specific list of courses.

Why couldn't they come up with a simpler way of proving teaching abilities than that?

Likewise, bullying is an umbrella term that we use for various forms of behaviour.

Right, but maybe if those who engage in such behaviour were better convinced that they would be caught and that real punishments would result, they might be more inclined to back off.

Teachers deter a lot of bullying, more than you'd be prepared to give us credit for. There is no easy solution, which is why we work so hard.

Fair enough, I should probably be more appreciative of your current efforts. I just feel frustrated that this problem is so rampant and have to wonder what might be more effective than whatever we have tried so far.