Feminism, misogyny and misandry.

[Geniasis]

Boy you sure showed him
It's nice when someone comes along who's opinions are facts by virtue of them being feminist

You're not exactly the poster boy for credibility yourself, you know.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Are you shitting me? The two main characters on Everybody Loves Raymond are a successful sports journalist and his homemaker wife. He is presented as being great at his career but incompetent at household management. She is routinely mocked for being an insufficiently good cook. (Interestingly, for all that all the characters routinely insult her cooking, none of the men ever cook anything for themselves.) And you think this show exists because feminism went too far?

You said it better, and first. YOU WIN THIS ROUND!

Hehe.

It just makes my head hurt to hear the standard "dopey husband with a job that will at least occasionally be relevant to the plot but who finds cooking and cleaning to be scary foreign concepts, disproportionately hot wife who is either a homemaker or whose job is mentioned in passing roughly twice ever and who handles all those householdy things because obviously hubby can't fold his own socks, and 2.4 children, who will generally encompass some combination of a pretty but painfully stupid daughter, a son who is hilariously bizarre because he likes school and doesn't like football, and a precociously annoying small child" sitcom used an example of how "feminism has gone too far." It's like pointing to a minstrel show and saying, "See, look how the civil rights movement has gone too far!"

[Bottle]

You said it better, and first. YOU WIN THIS ROUND!

Hehe.

It just makes my head hurt to hear the standard "dopey husband with a job that will at least occasionally be relevant to the plot but who finds cooking and cleaning to be scary foreign concepts, disproportionately hot wife who is either a homemaker or whose job is mentioned in passing roughly twice ever and who handles all those householdy things because obviously hubby can't fold his own socks, and 2.4 children, who will generally encompass some combination of a pretty but painfully stupid daughter, a son who is hilariously bizarre because he likes school and doesn't like football, and a precociously annoying small child" sitcom used an example of how "feminism has gone too far." It's like pointing to a minstrel show and saying, "See, look how the civil rights movement has gone too far!"

But see, it's a COMPLIMENT that they painted on blackface! They're representing black people in the performance! Just like how Raymond's show is all about how awesome women are, and they show this by berating and devaluing the disproportionately attractive and capable woman who gets to clean house and cook for all of them for no pay!

[GeneralHaNor]

the disproportionately attractive ....women

This shit always pisses me off

what?, less attractive men don't deserve the love of "Pretty" women
Complete bullshit

[Dakini]

the disproportionately attractive ....women

This shit always pisses me off

what?, less attractive men don't deserve the love of "Pretty" women
Complete bullshit

Have you ever seen a show where a heterosexual couple has a disproportionately attractive man?

Are less attractive women undeserving of the love of handsome men?

[Bottle]

the disproportionately attractive ....women

This shit always pisses me off

what?, less attractive men don't deserve the love of "Pretty" women
Complete bullshit

What pisses you off exactly? That less attractive men are frequently portrayed in culture as deserving supermodel girlfriends, while the reverse has seldom (if ever?) been shown?

Because seriously. Can you name for me ONE example of a movie or TV show in the last, say, 10 years in which a fat woman has been shown successfully partnered with a thin, attractive man? Can you name an example of a sitcom with an ugly wife who has a hotty husband? Because I would bet that I can name at least 40 shows and movies that show the "less attractive man" winning the love of a pretty woman. It is THE TITLE OF FUCKING MOVIES ferchrissakes (see the recent She's Out Of Your League).

It's the constant and unrelenting sexism of it that is the problem, not the fact that sometimes a less attractive person gets a more attractive partner.

[GeneralHaNor]

This shit always pisses me off

what?, less attractive men don't deserve the love of "Pretty" women
Complete bullshit

Have you ever seen a show where a heterosexual couple has a disproportionately attractive man?

Are less attractive women undeserving of the love of handsome men?

obviously not, have you seen my GF?
under the formula bottle seems to want, I wouldn't be allowed to be with her, she would die alone with 15 birds, and uncountable cats.

[Dakini]

This shit always pisses me off

what?, less attractive men don't deserve the love of "Pretty" women
Complete bullshit

What pisses you off exactly? That less attractive men are frequently portrayed in culture as deserving supermodel girlfriends, while the reverse has seldom (if ever?) been shown?

Because seriously. Can you name for me ONE example of a movie or TV show in the last, say, 10 years in which a fat woman has been shown successfully partnered with a thin, attractive man? Can you name an example of a sitcom with an ugly wife who has a hotty husband? Because I would bet that I can name at least 40 shows and movies that show the "less attractive man" winning the love of a pretty woman.

It even happens in cartoons.

[Bottle]

Have you ever seen a show where a heterosexual couple has a disproportionately attractive man?

Are less attractive women undeserving of the love of handsome men?

obviously not, have you seen my GF?
under the formula bottle seems to want, I wouldn't be allowed to be with her, she would die alone with 15 birds, and uncountable cats.

Wait, so you're a TV character? Your life is a TV show?

Because that's what we're talking about. The goal posts are over here, and sorry, but they're not moving just for you.

[Dakini]

Have you ever seen a show where a heterosexual couple has a disproportionately attractive man?

Are less attractive women undeserving of the love of handsome men?

obviously not, have you seen my GF?
under the formula bottle seems to want, I wouldn't be allowed to be with her, she would die alone with 15 birds, and uncountable cats.

...because you're significantly less attractive than she is and you appear on television? I don't get it.

Bottle is complaining about television persistently pairing hot women with average or unattractive men while the reverse is never true. Sometimes they'll pair people who are similar levels of attractiveness and hot women will be with hot men and ugly women will be with ugly men, but if there's a mismatch it always goes that the female is more attractive.

[GeneralHaNor]

obviously not, have you seen my GF?
under the formula bottle seems to want, I wouldn't be allowed to be with her, she would die alone with 15 birds, and uncountable cats.

Wait, so you're a TV character? Your life is a TV show?

Because that's what we're talking about. The goal posts are over here, and sorry, but they're not moving just for you.

So what is that you are demanding?, that only the attractive pair off with each other in tv land, and that uggos stick to there own kind
Exactly what is it that you want.

[St George of England]

What pisses you off exactly? That less attractive men are frequently portrayed in culture as deserving supermodel girlfriends, while the reverse has seldom (if ever?) been shown?

Because seriously. Can you name for me ONE example of a movie or TV show in the last, say, 10 years in which a fat woman has been shown successfully partnered with a thin, attractive man? Can you name an example of a sitcom with an ugly wife who has a hotty husband? Because I would bet that I can name at least 40 shows and movies that show the "less attractive man" winning the love of a pretty woman.

It even happens in cartoons.

And even an 'Ugly' Woman gets the 'hotty', it's always because she's suddenly turned into one herself...

[GeneralHaNor]

obviously not, have you seen my GF?
under the formula bottle seems to want, I wouldn't be allowed to be with her, she would die alone with 15 birds, and uncountable cats.

...because you're significantly less attractive than she is and you appear on television? I don't get it.

Bottle is complaining about television persistently pairing hot women with average or unattractive men while the reverse is never true. Sometimes they'll pair people who are similar levels of attractiveness and hot women will be with hot men and ugly women will be with ugly men, but if there's a mismatch it always goes that the female is more attractive.

Reserve the top.

and why does it matter, what social good will come from changing television practices, producers produce what people want to see, and clearly the audience has spoken

unless you believe hollywood should be nationalized and remain the Glorious People's Department of Social Engineering. and that we should be forced to watched what you want us to accept

[Dakini]

It even happens in cartoons.

And even an 'Ugly' Woman gets the 'hotty', it's always because she's suddenly turned into one herself...

Oh yes, the "she's ugly when she's got a bad haircut, unfashionable clothing and glasses, but stupid hot when those are gone" thing.

[Bottle]

Wait, so you're a TV character? Your life is a TV show?

Because that's what we're talking about. The goal posts are over here, and sorry, but they're not moving just for you.

So what is that you are demanding?, that only the attractive pair off with each other in tv land, and that uggos stick to there own kind
Exactly what is it that you want.

For starters, I want you to actually read what I post and try responding to THAT, rather than making up strawmen to yell at. When you're ready to do that, I'll be happy to chat with you further.

[GeneralHaNor]

So what is that you are demanding?, that only the attractive pair off with each other in tv land, and that uggos stick to there own kind
Exactly what is it that you want.

For starters, I want you to actually read what I post and try responding to THAT, rather than making up strawmen to yell at. When you're ready to do that, I'll be happy to chat with you further.

yeah no
I already have read it, and unless it's saying something I'm not seeing, I responded to the correct thing

[Geniasis]

What pisses you off exactly? That less attractive men are frequently portrayed in culture as deserving supermodel girlfriends, while the reverse has seldom (if ever?) been shown?

Because seriously. Can you name for me ONE example of a movie or TV show in the last, say, 10 years in which a fat woman has been shown successfully partnered with a thin, attractive man? Can you name an example of a sitcom with an ugly wife who has a hotty husband? Because I would bet that I can name at least 40 shows and movies that show the "less attractive man" winning the love of a pretty woman. It is THE TITLE OF FUCKING MOVIES ferchrissakes (see the recent She's Out Of Your League).

It's the constant and unrelenting sexism of it that is the problem, not the fact that sometimes a less attractive person gets a more attractive partner.

A terrible movie, but a good aesop -- "stop bitching, they're only out of your league because of your crippling insecurities you dumbass".

Shame it wasn't a better movie though.

[Dakini]

...because you're significantly less attractive than she is and you appear on television? I don't get it.

Bottle is complaining about television persistently pairing hot women with average or unattractive men while the reverse is never true. Sometimes they'll pair people who are similar levels of attractiveness and hot women will be with hot men and ugly women will be with ugly men, but if there's a mismatch it always goes that the female is more attractive.

Reserve the top.

and why does it matter, what social good will come from changing television practices, producers produce what people want to see, and clearly the audience has spoken

unless you believe hollywood should be nationalized and remain the Glorious People's Department of Social Engineering. and that we should be forced to watched what you want us to accept

Why and how should I reserve the top? I'm not quite sure how to set it aside for future use.

I think the point was more that here is yet another example of sexism in society, whether or not you think it matters is a different issue, but it does help point to the pervasiveness of sexism.

At any rate, there's a reason I don't watch sitcoms (well, there are many reasons, blatant sexism is just one).

[Geniasis]

At any rate, there's a reason I don't watch sitcoms (well, there are many reasons, blatant sexism is just one).

Modern Family is worth a shot, I think.

[Dakini]

At any rate, there's a reason I don't watch sitcoms (well, there are many reasons, blatant sexism is just one).

Modern Family is worth a shot, I think.

Well, another reason would be "I only have three channels". But I heard that Modern Family had a gay couple who aren't screamingly flamboyant, which makes it potentially interesting.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Wait, so you're a TV character? Your life is a TV show?

Because that's what we're talking about. The goal posts are over here, and sorry, but they're not moving just for you.

So what is that you are demanding?, that only the attractive pair off with each other in tv land, and that uggos stick to there own kind
Exactly what is it that you want.

What I want is the crazy idea that we stop judging the worth of a woman solely by her appearance. What I want is to stop acting like the only "appropriate" partner for a successful man is not a woman who is really smart or really funny or really talented, but rather a woman with really great knockers. What I want is to get rid of the notion that so many people have that women should have to starve themselves, work out religiously, cover themselves in make-up, shave and wax and pluck, wear push-up bras, girdles, or even get surgery, and generally obsess over every detail of their appearance in order to attract a partner, while men are doing well if they remember to brush their teeth in the morning. It's a stupid double standard, and it's tiresome, and the fact that every average-looking comedian has to get paired on TV with a woman who looks like she could have stepped directly out of the pages of Cosmo really, really doesn't help.

Put it this way: how many times, when "The Practice" was popular, did we hear how SHOCKING and INNOVATIVE it was to have Camryn Manheim be on TV despite being overweight? Now, how many times did we hear the same about "The King of Queens" daring to let Kevin James be on TV despite his pudge? (Hint: the answers are respectively "a whole fucking lot" and "never.")

[Farnhamia]

And even an 'Ugly' Woman gets the 'hotty', it's always because she's suddenly turned into one herself...

Oh yes, the "she's ugly when she's got a bad haircut, unfashionable clothing and glasses, but stupid hot when those are gone" thing.

Why, Miss Dakini, without your glasses ... you're lovely."

[Dakini]

Oh yes, the "she's ugly when she's got a bad haircut, unfashionable clothing and glasses, but stupid hot when those are gone" thing.

Why, Miss Dakini, without your glasses ... you're lovely."

Psh. I'm hot with my glasses too.

[Geniasis]

Well, another reason would be "I only have three channels". But I heard that Modern Family had a gay couple who aren't screamingly flamboyant, which makes it potentially interesting.

Well, one of them is incredibly camp, but he's also a major sports guy. The other one is really neurotic and tightly wound as well as more of a Straight Gay, but has more of the camp interests like Ice Skating. It used to be an issue that they were the only one of the three couples that hadn't kissed or showed physical affection, but this was addressed early in the second season by addressing it as one of them having issues with showing affection (who had major mom issues anyway and it made sense).

Long story short, they did eventually fix the problem.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Modern Family is worth a shot, I think.

Well, another reason would be "I only have three channels". But I heard that Modern Family had a gay couple who aren't screamingly flamboyant, which makes it potentially interesting.

Yeah, from what I've seen of it, it's actually pretty decent. It seems to base its jokes a lot more around making its characters funny than the standard sitcom "ha ha, look at those gay guys, they are so gay" sort of "jokes."