Feminism, misogyny and misandry.

[OrangeCats]

It isn't about men acting like women or women acting like men. It's about individuals acting in the manner that feels most comfortable to them without having to worry about whether or not it matches their genitalia or gender.

If a man being able to be a lot like you, only with a penis, "cheapens the value of being female" for you, that's your problem, not his.

Wow so are you one of those people who would like to erase femininity and masculinity? Make us all the same but only half of us pee standing up?

[The People of Belfast]

You see that kind of stuff all the time in commercials, TV shows, movies. It's okay to describe guys as dumb, child-like, helpless and in need of mothering by some female in their life. If I were a guy I think I'd be pretty irritated. My bf sure was.

It reminds me of an advert that really used to annoy me. It was Shelia's Wheels, a car insurance company targeted at women. There adverts were entirely targeted towards women. Could you imagine what would happen if a company was to only target men, or white people etc. There would be outrage at it.

[Dakini]

It isn't about men acting like women or women acting like men. It's about individuals acting in the manner that feels most comfortable to them without having to worry about whether or not it matches their genitalia or gender.

If a man being able to be a lot like you, only with a penis, "cheapens the value of being female" for you, that's your problem, not his.

Wow so are you one of those people who would like to erase femininity and masculinity? Make us all the same but only half of us pee standing up?

Actually, some women can pee standing up. If I thought I could manage this feat without peeing on my shoes I'd totally do it.

And who the hell are you to tell a man he can't wear a skirt and be a house-husband if he wants to? Who the hell are you to say that he's less of a man because he likes sappy romance movies? Who the hell are you to say a woman is less of a woman because she likes hard sciences and hard alcohol?

[OrangeCats]

It reminds me of an advert that really used to annoy me. It was Shelia's Wheels, a car insurance company targeted at women. There adverts were entirely targeted towards women. Could you imagine what would happen if a company was to only target men, or white people etc. There would be outrage at it.

Yeah that's pretty annoying. It's like a double standard and a lot of the same people who sit around validating each other by complaining about sexism only see one half of what's going on and think they know what's going on.

[OrangeCats]

Actually, some women can pee standing up. If I thought I could manage this feat without peeing on my shoes I'd totally do it.

And some men can't, so it's still half of us.

And who the hell are you to tell a man he can't wear a skirt and be a house-husband if he wants to? Who the hell are you to say that he's less of a man because he likes sappy romance movies? Who the hell are you to say a woman is less of a woman because she likes hard sciences and hard alcohol?

Wow take a chocolate chill pill I didn't say any of that stuff.

If a guy wants to put on a skirt well that's fine with me as long as it matches his blouse. I'm only saying that people are trying so hard to fix sexism they've gone too far and are doing more harm than good now.

[Sapphista]

I think the hate of everything feminist stems from the fact that some people assume that feminists are men-hating dykes who can be cured of their bitchiness by being laid.

Unfortunately, I've met quite a few of these people in rural Louisiana. What's even more unfortunate is that probably half of this minority is made up of women.

To understand why people have such misgivings about feminism, we have to realize that Feminism is an abstract idea that (hopefully) changes throughout the years. People that "hate feminism" ... do they hate the feminism of the '70s? Today's feminism? Do they hate Gloria Steinem's shades? Who knows -.-

Feminism isn't perfect. We've had our problems with race-relations. Feminism used to be only for the bored, upper-class white women who wanted to work. Lower-class women of different ethnicities didn't have a choice. They had to work. So I can definitely understand misgivings about feminism in regards to this mindset that the early feminist movement had. But, I would like to say that that's hopefully in the past.

But, honestly, I think that most men who don't like feminists don't because they don't like to hear women talk about things other than what to make for dinner.

[OrangeCats]

I think the hate of everything feminist stems from the fact that some people assume that feminists are men-hating dykes who can be cured of their bitchiness by being laid.

Worked for me.

>>

<<

(kidding)

But, honestly, I think that most men who don't like feminists don't because they don't like to hear women talk about things other than what to make for dinner.

Actually, they don't like feminists because they're sick of being blamed for all the problems in the world.

[Dakini]

A couple of years ago my bf and I were watching TV and Everybody Loved Raymond came on, and as we were watching the episode we realized that the entire basis for the humor on that show is basically this guy's wife treating him like dirt. If the dialogue had been reversed and it was the husband talking down at the wife that way, it wouldn't be funny at all and people would be up in arms at the misogyny.

You see that kind of stuff all the time in commercials, TV shows, movies. It's okay to describe guys as dumb, child-like, helpless and in need of mothering by some female in their life. If I were a guy I think I'd be pretty irritated. My bf sure was.

Well, the thing with this sort of shit is that it's the same old sexism. It reinforces gender roles: men are incompetent in the home and women know what to do (but only at home). Women are smart and know how to do laundry, if you give a man the task he'll just flood your basement; so ladies you'd better make sure that you handle these tasks on your own. By denigrating men as maintainers of homes, it excuses them from having to do these tasks, even if the lady of the house works just as much outside the home as her partner.

And the thing is, in Everybody Loves Raymond the wife is portrayed just as negatively. She's a bitch, a shrew, a nag, a perfectionist. Everything negative about wives is embodied in this woman... the only thing she does well is manage the home.

"Women should wear make up" is arbitrary. "Men should not wear make up" is arbitrary.

Ok I guess it's arbitrary but who cares? Both men and women wear makeup... just not the same kind or for the same reasons.

Why can't they wear the same kind for the same reasons? Why should women have to wear make up on a day to day basis? When I was in high school, I knew a bunch of girls who "couldn't leave the house" without eye liner. I didn't know any boys who couldn't leave the house without concealer on their zits (which is probably one of the few practical applications of make up outside of the performing arts).

[OrangeCats]

Well, the thing with this sort of shit is that it's the same old sexism. It reinforces gender roles: men are incompetent in the home and women know what to do (but only at home). Women are smart and know how to do laundry, if you give a man the task he'll just flood your basement; so ladies you'd better make sure that you handle these tasks on your own. By denigrating men as maintainers of homes, it excuses them from having to do these tasks, even if the lady of the house works just as much outside the home as her partner.

And the thing is, in Everybody Loves Raymond the wife is portrayed just as negatively. She's a bitch, a shrew, a nag, a perfectionist. Everything negative about wives is embodied in this woman... the only thing she does well is manage the home.

Yeah talk about a case where maybe wife beating is forgivable...

(still kidding)

Why can't they wear the same kind for the same reasons?

Because most guys would look just awful in rouge...

Why should women have to wear make up on a day to day basis?

I dunno. I don't have to. Do you?

When I was in high school, I knew a bunch of girls who "couldn't leave the house" without eye liner. I didn't know any boys who couldn't leave the house without concealer on their zits (which is probably one of the few practical applications of make up outside of the performing arts).

Don't forget about guys who wear foundation to cover up the black eye they got from getting owned by their girlfriend...

[Dakini]

And who the hell are you to tell a man he can't wear a skirt and be a house-husband if he wants to? Who the hell are you to say that he's less of a man because he likes sappy romance movies? Who the hell are you to say a woman is less of a woman because she likes hard sciences and hard alcohol?

Wow take a chocolate chill pill I didn't say any of that stuff.

If a guy wants to put on a skirt well that's fine with me as long as it matches his blouse. I'm only saying that people are trying so hard to fix sexism they've gone too far and are doing more harm than good now.

No, it hasn't gone too far because these negative ideas about both men and women exist. Men who stay at home to look after their children are often insulted for their choice, as are women who choose to have children and work outside the home. Men who cry are considered "pussies". Women who are assertive are called "bitches", men who aren't are "wusses". Et c.

These ideas persist in society and they're much more hurtful than attempts to eradicate them.

[Kiskaanak]

It isn't about men acting like women or women acting like men. It's about individuals acting in the manner that feels most comfortable to them without having to worry about whether or not it matches their genitalia or gender.

If a man being able to be a lot like you, only with a penis, "cheapens the value of being female" for you, that's your problem, not his.

Wow so are you one of those people who would like to erase femininity and masculinity? Make us all the same but only half of us pee standing up?

Try reading.

"It's about individuals acting in the manner that feels most comfortable to them without having to worry about whether or not it matches their genitalia or gender."

This is not a confusing statement, and bears no resemblance to your question.

[Dakini]

Why can't they wear the same kind for the same reasons?

Because most guys would look just awful in rouge...

No more awful than women look in it.

Why should women have to wear make up on a day to day basis?

I dunno. I don't have to. Do you?

No, but I'm not the one saying that women should paint their faces (neither were you exactly, but you were defending the idea that this distinction isn't arbitrary).

When I was in high school, I knew a bunch of girls who "couldn't leave the house" without eye liner. I didn't know any boys who couldn't leave the house without concealer on their zits (which is probably one of the few practical applications of make up outside of the performing arts).

Don't forget about guys who wear foundation to cover up the black eye they got from getting owned by their girlfriend...

Well, why should women be the only ones expected to hide domestic abuse? (Except the part where women are more frequently the victims of physical abuse from their partners than men in heterosexual relationships)

edit: bold added, changes meaning.

[Kiskaanak]

Actually, they don't like feminists because they're sick of being blamed for all the problems in the world.

No, the feminism that you and others complain about is a delusional feminism mostly promulgated by men who do not actually understand any brand of feminism at all.

[OrangeCats]

No, it hasn't gone too far because these negative ideas about both men and women exist. Men who stay at home to look after their children are often insulted for their choice, as are women who choose to have children and work outside the home. Men who cry are considered "pussies". Women who are assertive are called "bitches", men who aren't are "wusses". Et c.

Well just because negative stereotypes still exist doesn't mean the movement can't have gone too far. They HAVE, because they've been focusing on the wrong problems. Instead of teaching men to be ashamed of their masculinity or trying to humiliate women for not choosing the "accepted" life path, they should be focusing on the real problems.

I was listening to a radio show a couple years ago. I forget what station it was or what show it was, but I remember they were talking to some feminist author who was saying that any woman who chooses to stay at home and focus on her children is by definition brainwashed by a sexist, patriarchal society and they weren't really choosing anything. I was incredibly insulted. Basically she was saying that any woman who didn't choose what SHE would have chosen is somehow a victim. THAT is sexist. It means I don't really have a choice unless I want to be patronized by these people. The sexism is coming from THEM. If I choose a career outside the home they approve. If I choose to focus on my kids they disapprove and presume I"m damaged somehow.

That's the most insulted I've ever been as a woman and it came from people who claim to be feminists. Where's the empowerment? Do things their way or you're damaged goods? What crap!

[OrangeCats]

No more awful than women look in it.

Meh Tammy Faye Baker notwithstanding

you were defending the idea that this distinction is arbitrary

It isn't arbitrary?

Well, why should women be the only ones expected to hide domestic abuse? (Except the part where women are more frequently the victims of physical abuse from their partners than men in heterosexual relationships)

It was a joke. A joke.


Guys... this is an Internet forum... If you're not having fun... Do something else more worthy of getting your blood pressure up over.

[Dakini]

No more awful than women look in it.

Meh Tammy Faye Baker notwithstanding

Everyone looks terrible if they put on enough make up to be noticeable unless it's for a costume. I fail to see how men would look inherently worse with subtle make up than women with similar subtle make up.

you were defending the idea that this distinction is arbitrary

It isn't arbitrary?

Uh... sorry about that, I'm missing an "n't" there.

Well, why should women be the only ones expected to hide domestic abuse? (Except the part where women are more frequently the victims of physical abuse from their partners than men in heterosexual relationships)

It was a joke. A joke.


Guys... this is an Internet forum... If you're not having fun... Do something else more worthy of getting your blood pressure up over.

The first part of my response was also a sorta-joke, but given that domestic abuse is something that's difficult to find funny...

[OrangeCats]

Everyone looks terrible if they put on enough make up to be noticeable unless it's for a costume. I fail to see how men would look inherently worse with subtle make up than women with similar subtle make up.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

Uh... sorry about that, I'm missing an "n't" there.

I don't think it's arbitrary anyway, since the line is blurred at best.

The first part of my response was also a sorta-joke, but given that domestic abuse is something that's difficult to find funny...

You're right, and I can't believe I missed the joke part. I must be tired today.

[The Norwegian Blue]

No, it hasn't gone too far because these negative ideas about both men and women exist. Men who stay at home to look after their children are often insulted for their choice, as are women who choose to have children and work outside the home. Men who cry are considered "pussies". Women who are assertive are called "bitches", men who aren't are "wusses". Et c.

Well just because negative stereotypes still exist doesn't mean the movement can't have gone too far. They HAVE, because they've been focusing on the wrong problems. Instead of teaching men to be ashamed of their masculinity or trying to humiliate women for not choosing the "accepted" life path, they should be focusing on the real problems.

I was listening to a radio show a couple years ago. I forget what station it was or what show it was, but I remember they were talking to some feminist author who was saying that any woman who chooses to stay at home and focus on her children is by definition brainwashed by a sexist, patriarchal society and they weren't really choosing anything. I was incredibly insulted. Basically she was saying that any woman who didn't choose what SHE would have chosen is somehow a victim. THAT is sexist. It means I don't really have a choice unless I want to be patronized by these people. The sexism is coming from THEM. If I choose a career outside the home they approve. If I choose to focus on my kids they disapprove and presume I"m damaged somehow.

That's the most insulted I've ever been as a woman and it came from people who claim to be feminists. Where's the empowerment? Do things their way or you're damaged goods? What crap!

Yeah, that woman got a lot of airtime. What didn't get so much airtime was the vast majority of feminists responding with, "What a consummate load of crap." Just like how the media spends a lot more attention on Fred Phelps shrieking about how God hates everybody than it does on normal Christians going about their lives, or on the latest Osama bin Laden video than on some average imam preaching a sermon about how being nice to people is good. The mass media loves people saying outrageous and sensationalist things that will piss a lot of people off; they're not such fans of people saying ordinary, reasonable things, because ordinary, reasonable things don't pique audience attention and cause everyone to tune in and be exposed to their advertisers.

Just to be clear, speaking as a feminist, that woman's idiocy was just that - idiotic. Saying that NO ONE could possibly WANT to be a parent and to stay at home with children is garbage, regardless of what ideology one dresses it up in - and if you want to take an impromptu poll of the feminists on this site, I suspect you'll find that not a one of them actually agrees with her.

[Dakini]

Everyone looks terrible if they put on enough make up to be noticeable unless it's for a costume. I fail to see how men would look inherently worse with subtle make up than women with similar subtle make up.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

Just like the opinion that women should wear make up.

Uh... sorry about that, I'm missing an "n't" there.

I don't think it's arbitrary anyway, since the line is blurred at best.

How is it not arbitrary? Few things about what is fashionable aren't arbitrary (pretty much everything other than "it is often useful to wear clothing of some sort, with a sort largely dependent on local climate" is arbitrary).

The first part of my response was also a sorta-joke, but given that domestic abuse is something that's difficult to find funny...

You're right, and I can't believe I missed the joke part. I must be tired today.

It was perhaps a bit subtle and disguised with a serious point at the end, so it's fair enough.

[OrangeCats]

Just to be clear, speaking as a feminist, that woman's idiocy was just that - idiotic. Saying that NO ONE could possibly WANT to be a parent and to stay at home with children is garbage, regardless of what ideology one dresses it up in - and if you want to take an impromptu poll of the feminists on this site, I suspect you'll find that not a one of them actually agrees with her.

You know, I really hope that's true.

[OrangeCats]

Just like the opinion that women should wear make up.

I guess, but that isn't necessarily sexist in a bad way. An opinion is just an opinion.

How is it not arbitrary? Few things about what is fashionable aren't arbitrary (pretty much everything other than "it is often useful to wear clothing of some sort, with a sort largely dependent on local climate" is arbitrary).

No I mean you can't draw that sharp arbitrary line without taking a real hardline stance. "Men should NEVER wear makeup even to look better on camera RAAAAAAGH!" People usually don't see things quite that extreme.

It was perhaps a bit subtle and disguised with a serious point at the end, so it's fair enough.

[The Deep Vault]

Not really. My gender and my sex are female, but I don't think I should have to assume certain roles in society because of this.

But what social role do you possess, exactly...? That's the question.

So? Why should someone have to assume and conform to a specific gender role at work? Why can't they just work?

Still not understanding the difference between that and normal dress codes.

Fine, then what is it that men generally have to do in terms of hygiene/appearance practices that women don't.

Why does it matter? It could be something unique to that company for all I know.

When you say that the only way for a woman to be attractive is for her to wear make up, yes. It's incredibly sexist.

No, it's not. It's "I personally only find women under this set of traits attractive." Fetishes aren't sexist.

[Aeronos]

I'm female myself, but I stand away from feminism. The first- and second-wave feminist movements were fantastically necessary, serving to end the discriminatory laws and prejudices in Western society at the time. The third-wave we've seen since the 1990s is less about equality and more gynocentric, to the point it does nothing but hurt the progression of gender equality.
Ever since all this "New Age" post-modern bullshit crept into it, it's been dangerously regressive. Thanks to that, we've had this whole "As a mother" rhetoric, "Men are evil" rhetoric (Hillary Clinton being very guilty of this), and the new age giving this whole "There's something special about being female and males will never know" bull. It's nonsense, all of it. I want gender equality more than anyone, and that's precisely that: gender equality, not female-supremacy.
There's a fair amount of room left for making females more equal with males in the West, that is true, but nobody can deny that there's inequality against males too. It's perfectly okay for me to dress as a guy, and if I decided to be transsexual or lesbian, people will just accept it. But when a guy dresses as a girl, suddenly that's treading untouchable ground. If a guy ends up transsexual or gay, he risks assault and even murder. If I apply for a job with the same qualifications and experience as a guy, I'll be chosen without question because of anti-discrimination laws: if they chose him, I could claim misogyny, but if they choose me, nobody would take his claim of misandry seriously. I hope you get my gist

Reverse discrimination does not end discrimination. Say no to affirmative action. Destroy discrimination through education and collectivity, not through coercion and more discrimination. But maybe I'm just another damned libertarian!

[Kiskaanak]

I'm female myself, but I stand away from feminism. The first- and second-wave feminist movements were fantastically necessary, serving to end the discriminatory laws and prejudices in Western society at the time. The third-wave we've seen since the 1990s is less about equality and more gynocentric, to the point it does nothing but hurt the progression of gender equality.
Ever since all this "New Age" post-modern bullshit crept into it, it's been dangerously regressive. Thanks to that, we've had this whole "As a mother" rhetoric, "Men are evil" rhetoric (Hillary Clinton being very guilty of this), and the new age giving this whole "There's something special about being female and males will never know" bull. It's nonsense, all of it. I want gender equality more than anyone, and that's precisely that: gender equality, not female-supremacy.
There's a fair amount of room left for making females more equal with males in the West, that is true, but nobody can deny that there's inequality against males too. It's perfectly okay for me to dress as a guy, and if I decided to be transsexual or lesbian, people will just accept it. But when a guy dresses as a girl, suddenly that's treading untouchable ground. If a guy ends up transsexual or gay, he risks assault and even murder. If I apply for a job with the same qualifications and experience as a guy, I'll be chosen without question because of anti-discrimination laws: if they chose him, I could claim misogyny, but if they choose me, nobody would take his claim of misandry seriously. I hope you get my gist

Reverse discrimination does not end discrimination. Say no to affirmative action. Destroy discrimination through education and collectivity, not through coercion and more discrimination. But maybe I'm just another damned libertarian!

I see you are just as confused about the goal of gender equity as many other of the people participating in this thread.

"Traditional" views of gender roles are harmful to men as well as women...feminists have long said this. That has been ignored however, in favour of claiming that women are only fighting to get rid of gender roles for women, as though this could possibly happen without impacting the gender roles imposed on men.

False. False and ridiculous. I'm sorry if you do not understand feminism, but please don't put forth your misunderstanding as as definition for it. Particularly when it comes to your claims about gender equity protection (fought for and hard won by feminists) which do in fact protect men from sexual harassment and discrimination.

[Dakini]

Not really. My gender and my sex are female, but I don't think I should have to assume certain roles in society because of this.

But what social role do you possess, exactly...? That's the question.

I possess many social roles. It would depend who you ask.

So? Why should someone have to assume and conform to a specific gender role at work? Why can't they just work?

Still not understanding the difference between that and normal dress codes.

A general dress code at work applies equally to everyone who works at a place. A specific dress code for one sex (or gender) and a different for another is very different. It would be like if you worked somewhere and all black employees were required to keep afros or dreadlocks.

Fine, then what is it that men generally have to do in terms of hygiene/appearance practices that women don't.

Why does it matter? It could be something unique to that company for all I know.

You claimed that men could be as inconvenienced as women putting on make up each morning. I'd like to hear your suggestions.

When you say that the only way for a woman to be attractive is for her to wear make up, yes. It's incredibly sexist.

No, it's not. It's "I personally only find women under this set of traits attractive." Fetishes aren't sexist.

When you try to make these a workplace policy, it is.

If I was a boss and my workplace policy was that all men must wear spiked dog collars and keep a leash at their desks because I had a fetish for leading men around on leashes, this would be kinda sexist (and probably grounds for a sexual harassment lawsuit).