Feminism, misogyny and misandry.

[Ifreann]

Cultists Gentiles Gentiles with boobs get eaten first.

That's entirely true, for certain definitions of "eaten."

I'm sure it involves eternity in some kind of dark oblivion with unimaginable cosmic horrors. Or a weekend in a cheap motel with Hammurab, whatever.

[Jhahannam]

That's entirely true, for certain definitions of "eaten."

I'm sure it involves eternity in some kind of dark oblivion with unimaginable cosmic horrors. Or a weekend in a cheap motel with Hammurab, whatever.

One time I spent a weekend in a cheap motel with Hammurab. Three times he drilled a prostitute, we watched a Spanish dubbed version of Heat, and the rest of the time he spent trying to convince me that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was not a bad film.

And the police took my lighter.

[Ryadn]

I think the bickering occurs when you try to impose your beliefs on others. You can fear God all you want and have your own little house with a wife that thinks like you but it becomes unfair when you try to make others think as you do by attempting to use logic when your own beliefs are separate from logic and rational thought.

My big thing, in the United States, they already passed an equality law, they got their way, now if they could please carry on, that would be nice, because I don't need to keep on hearing about something that has been taken care of.

We passed the Equal Rights Amendment? And no one told me?

[Geniasis]

We passed the Equal Rights Amendment? And no one told me?

No, it's written on the back of another law. But we can't let you see it; you have a vagina and you might get cooties all over it.

[Ryadn]

Why do posts written by Generalhanor always read like a failed attempt at haiku?

Because in the game of haiku, no one wins?

I don't know. It kind of almost makes me miss the days of obnoxious bigots that could actually get under my skin. Almost.

[The Deep Vault]

Dress codes are one thing... unless of course your dress code for women lacks the "pants" option.

It's one thing to say that your employees should dress presentably and perhaps make suggestions about personal hygiene and blah blah blah. It's another thing to tell (possibly) 50% of your employees that the only way they're presentable is if they cover their face in paint.

It's also a money-sink. Women have to spend all that extra time and money getting their makeup on. For somebody like me, who has lived on a grad student paycheck for 6 years, that adds up to a fuckton of money. Even if I wanted to wear makeup, that money would have to come from somewhere...and I don't have much to spare.

That's a bit more uneven then...

I don't have too much information on that.

[OrangeCats]

So I'd like to ask here and now who has something against feminism and why. And for misogynists out there to please explain why women should have to be subservient to men or why women are "immature"--and to please explain both scientifically.

There's two kinds of feminism. One is the kind of feminism where women celebrate being women and are only looking for equal opportunities and treatment as men. The other kind of feminism is the kind that suppresses femininity as if somehow it's a bad thing and expects women to act like men.

The first kind is good. It's women who are glad to be women. We wear a bra because it's comfortable and don't try to make it some kind of bizarre symbol of male oppression. (Go ahead and burn your bras if you want, but I need mine to go jogging.)

The second kind is horrible because it's misogyny by women disguised as liberation.

[Dakini]

So I'd like to ask here and now who has something against feminism and why. And for misogynists out there to please explain why women should have to be subservient to men or why women are "immature"--and to please explain both scientifically.

There's two kinds of feminism. One is the kind of feminism where women celebrate being women and are only looking for equal opportunities and treatment as men. The other kind of feminism is the kind that suppresses femininity as if somehow it's a bad thing and expects women to act like men.

The first kind is good. It's women who are glad to be women. We wear a bra because it's comfortable and don't try to make it some kind of bizarre symbol of male oppression. (Go ahead and burn your bras if you want, but I need mine to go jogging.)

The second kind is horrible because it's misogyny by women disguised as liberation.

At the same time though, isn't that pretty much what society tells everyone? That being feminine is being weak, that being girly means being fickle, superficial and not very bright? Remember talking Barbie ("Math is hard! Let's call up Skipper and go shopping!")? Who wants to be like her?

I mean, I wear a bra and I wear skirts and dresses when the weather is right for it, but there's definitely some aspects of society's misogyny that makes it difficult for me to say, want to admit to thinking I should lose a bit of weight (although one could also argue that I think maybe I should do this because society tells us that women aren't attractive unless they're tiny... but I also don't want to buy new pants) or even go on a diet because I know that there will be times when I'm out with my friends and I'll get shit for ordering a salad... because "that's what girls do" (though the part where I'm a vegetarian probably doesn't help for me not wanting to order a salad since "that's what food eats") or show that I'm upset (because "women are emotional/emotions are for the weak").

There's something about appearing to be stereotypically girly that gets a person a lot of flack, whether they're male or female. Even if most of the time they pursue stereotypically masculine activities (maybe especially so). I think to some extent, it's difficult to get away from this.

I also think that if a woman wants to tromp around in combat boots wearing a sports bra (or none at all) under her flannel shirt, go her. Just because society wants to define feminine doesn't mean that every woman has to fit this. And just because a woman dresses like this doesn't mean she's internalized society's misogyny. Similarly, just because a woman wears a nice lacey push up bra under her fashionable shirt and straps her feet into high heels every day doesn't mean that she hasn't internalized society's misogyny.

[The Deep Vault]

Dress codes are one thing... unless of course your dress code for women lacks the "pants" option.

It's one thing to say that your employees should dress presentably and perhaps make suggestions about personal hygiene and blah blah blah. It's another thing to tell (possibly) 50% of your employees that the only way they're presentable is if they cover their face in paint.

It's also a money-sink. Women have to spend all that extra time and money getting their makeup on. For somebody like me, who has lived on a grad student paycheck for 6 years, that adds up to a fuckton of money. Even if I wanted to wear makeup, that money would have to come from somewhere...and I don't have much to spare.

That's legitimate, I suppose...

Nothing inherently sexist though, and it depends a bit on the paycheck.

[Dempublicents1]

It's also a money-sink. Women have to spend all that extra time and money getting their makeup on. For somebody like me, who has lived on a grad student paycheck for 6 years, that adds up to a fuckton of money. Even if I wanted to wear makeup, that money would have to come from somewhere...and I don't have much to spare.

That's legitimate, I suppose...

Nothing inherently sexist though, and it depends a bit on the paycheck.

Any policy that says women have to wear makeup, while men do not, is inherently sexist. It is arbitrarily different treatment based solely on the sex of the people involved.

[The Deep Vault]

That's legitimate, I suppose...

Nothing inherently sexist though, and it depends a bit on the paycheck.

Any policy that says women have to wear makeup, while men do not, is inherently sexist. It is arbitrarily different treatment based solely on the sex of the people involved.

Again: a. Depends on how "woman" is defined and b. Different=/=unfavorable

[Dakini]

Any policy that says women have to wear makeup, while men do not, is inherently sexist. It is arbitrarily different treatment based solely on the sex of the people involved.

AGAIN: a. Depends on how "woman" is defined and b. Different=/=unfavorable

a. No it doesn't. I am biologically female and I self-identify as female, why should I have to wear make up to do my job? How will this make me do my job any better? Why does this standard exist?
b. How is it not unfavourable? If I have to wear make up to my job, this means I have to spend the time in the morning to put it on while a male colleague of mine can sleep in a little more.

[The Deep Vault]

AGAIN: a. Depends on how "woman" is defined and b. Different=/=unfavorable

a. No it doesn't. I am biologically female and I self-identify as female, why should I have to wear make up to do my job? How will this make me do my job any better? Why does this standard exist?

Like I said, that applies to normal dress codes. I'm not a fan. It's just not sexist.

Also, gender isn't necessarily about self-identification, it's about (in certain definitions) role in society, but...ah.

b. How is it not unfavourable? If I have to wear make up to my job, this means I have to spend the time in the morning to put it on while a male colleague of mine can sleep in a little more.

That's...relatively slight. But beyond that, how do you know there isn't something other than makeup males have to do?

[Dempublicents1]

Any policy that says women have to wear makeup, while men do not, is inherently sexist. It is arbitrarily different treatment based solely on the sex of the people involved.

Again: a. Depends on how "woman" is defined and b. Different=/=unfavorable

Unless "woman" means "all employees", then it doesn't depend on how "woman" is defined. If you arbitrarily assign different standards to some of your employees based on whether or not they are male or female, that is the very definition of sexism.

[The Deep Vault]

Again: a. Depends on how "woman" is defined and b. Different=/=unfavorable

Unless "woman" means "all employees", then it doesn't depend on how "woman" is defined. If you arbitrarily assign different standards to some of your employees based on whether or not they are male or female, that is the very definition of sexism.

You didn't really answer "b."

[OrangeCats]

There's two kinds of feminism. One is the kind of feminism where women celebrate being women and are only looking for equal opportunities and treatment as men. The other kind of feminism is the kind that suppresses femininity as if somehow it's a bad thing and expects women to act like men.

The first kind is good. It's women who are glad to be women. We wear a bra because it's comfortable and don't try to make it some kind of bizarre symbol of male oppression. (Go ahead and burn your bras if you want, but I need mine to go jogging.)

The second kind is horrible because it's misogyny by women disguised as liberation.

At the same time though, isn't that pretty much what society tells everyone? That being feminine is being weak, that being girly means being fickle, superficial and not very bright? Remember talking Barbie ("Math is hard! Let's call up Skipper and go shopping!")? Who wants to be like her?

I mean, I wear a bra and I wear skirts and dresses when the weather is right for it, but there's definitely some aspects of society's misogyny that makes it difficult for me to say, want to admit to thinking I should lose a bit of weight (although one could also argue that I think maybe I should do this because society tells us that women aren't attractive unless they're tiny... but I also don't want to buy new pants) or even go on a diet because I know that there will be times when I'm out with my friends and I'll get shit for ordering a salad... because "that's what girls do" (though the part where I'm a vegetarian probably doesn't help for me not wanting to order a salad since "that's what food eats") or show that I'm upset (because "women are emotional/emotions are for the weak").

There's something about appearing to be stereotypically girly that gets a person a lot of flack, whether they're male or female. Even if most of the time they pursue stereotypically masculine activities (maybe especially so). I think to some extent, it's difficult to get away from this.

I also think that if a woman wants to tromp around in combat boots wearing a sports bra (or none at all) under her flannel shirt, go her. Just because society wants to define feminine doesn't mean that every woman has to fit this. And just because a woman dresses like this doesn't mean she's internalized society's misogyny. Similarly, just because a woman wears a nice lacey push up bra under her fashionable shirt and straps her feet into high heels every day doesn't mean that she hasn't internalized society's misogyny.

See, I agree but the problem is that it's so common to thing that feminine = weak that even a lot of feminists buy into it without even realizing it. It's where you get the really hardcore bra-burning women who refuse to cry. It really does make them try to act like men instead of opening their eyes and realizing that feminine =/= weak and that if somebody says it is, then they either need to work on their idea of feminine or their idea of weak.

Physically? Well okay I'll concede that on average women aren't able to lift was much weight as a guy. So what else? We have a higher pain threshold. Emotionally, I don't think men are any stronger than women they just cope with their emotions in a different and less open way. It doesn't mean we wear our feelings on our sleeve or that we can't cope. It's all a matter of perception but I think people perceive the wrong things. I blame the self-loathing class of feminists for that because they seem to resent everything that differentiates a female from a male instead of embracing it for what it is and appreciating its beauty.

[Dakini]

a. No it doesn't. I am biologically female and I self-identify as female, why should I have to wear make up to do my job? How will this make me do my job any better? Why does this standard exist?

Like I said, that applies to normal dress codes. I'm not a fan. It's just not sexist.

Also, gender isn't necessarily about self-identification, it's about (in certain definitions) role in society, but...ah.

Like I said, I'm biologically female as well as self-identifying as female. Also, why should gender be about certain roles in society? How is that not sexist? Even if it was about certain roles, we're not talking about everyone who has this role (/job) being required to wear make up, we're only talking about the women who have these roles being required to wear make up. How is that not sexist?

b. How is it not unfavourable? If I have to wear make up to my job, this means I have to spend the time in the morning to put it on while a male colleague of mine can sleep in a little more.

That's...relatively slight. But beyond that, how do you know there isn't something other than makeup males have to do?

Like shave? Because women don't shave. Certainly not. We definitely don't shave large portions of our bodies.
How is it that my male colleagues are attractive enough to face their job without make up, but I'm not? How is this idea not sexist?

[Dempublicents1]

Unless "woman" means "all employees", then it doesn't depend on how "woman" is defined. If you arbitrarily assign different standards to some of your employees based on whether or not they are male or female, that is the very definition of sexism.

You didn't really answer "b."

That's because it is irrelevant.

[Dakini]

See, I agree but the problem is that it's so common to thing that feminine = weak that even a lot of feminists buy into it without even realizing it. It's where you get the really hardcore bra-burning women who refuse to cry. It really does make them try to act like men instead of opening their eyes and realizing that feminine =/= weak and that if somebody says it is, then they either need to work on their idea of feminine or their idea of weak.

Physically? Well okay I'll concede that on average women aren't able to lift was much weight as a guy. So what else? We have a higher pain threshold. Emotionally, I don't think men are any stronger than women they just cope with their emotions in a different and less open way. It doesn't mean we wear our feelings on our sleeve or that we can't cope. It's all a matter of perception but I think people perceive the wrong things. I blame the self-loathing class of feminists for that because they seem to resent everything that differentiates a female from a male instead of embracing it for what it is and appreciating its beauty.

Really? I blame sexist people a lot more than I blame feminists.

I don't think that anything like this really should differentiate a male from a female. Men should be allowed to show emotion and be sensitive, to diet, to care about how they look, to wear dresses et c without being looked at as "less" of a man. Women should be allowed to be tough, (physically) strong and athletic, not shave their legs, go into maths et c without being "less" of a woman.

The only thing that "should" differentiate men from women is that men have penises and women have vaginas (along with all the other secondary sex characteristics and the point where women can get pregnant and men can't).

[Arborlawn]

Like I said, that applies to normal dress codes. I'm not a fan. It's just not sexist.

Also, gender isn't necessarily about self-identification, it's about (in certain definitions) role in society, but...ah.

Like I said, I'm biologically female as well as self-identifying as female. Also, why should gender be about certain roles in society? How is that not sexist? Even if it was about certain roles, we're not talking about everyone who has this role (/job) being required to wear make up, we're only talking about the women who have these roles being required to wear make up. How is that not sexist?

That's...relatively slight. But beyond that, how do you know there isn't something other than makeup males have to do?

Like shave? Because women don't shave. Certainly not. We definitely don't shave large portions of our bodies.
How is it that my male colleagues are attractive enough to face their job without make up, but I'm not? How is this idea not sexist?

Cause we want women to look good?

[The Deep Vault]

Also, why should gender be about certain roles in society? How is that not sexist?

It's funny because you're being sexist without realizing it. That's the entire reason I brought up the gender/sex distinction. And this coming from a feminist, too.

we're only talking about the women who have these roles being required to wear make up. How is that not sexist?

Because a job is the only way in which someone interacts with society.

Like shave? Because women don't shave. Certainly not. We definitely don't shave large portions of our bodies

Because I could only have meant shaving. And nothing else.

How is it that my male colleagues are attractive enough to face their job without make up, but I'm not? How is this idea not sexist?

[/quote]

Aesthetics is sexist now?

[OrangeCats]

Really? I blame sexist people a lot more than I blame feminists.

I don't think that anything like this really should differentiate a male from a female. Men should be allowed to show emotion and be sensitive, to diet, to care about how they look, to wear dresses et c without being looked at as "less" of a man. Women should be allowed to be tough, (physically) strong and athletic, not shave their legs, go into maths et c without being "less" of a woman.

The only thing that "should" differentiate men from women is that men have penises and women have vaginas (along with all the other secondary sex characteristics and the point where women can get pregnant and men can't).

We agree that there shouldn't be these locked in roles like men can't cry and women have to shave their pits. I'm with you.

BUT. I hate the idea that the only meaningful difference between me and a guy is that he has different genitals. That's stupid and it cheapens the value of being female. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about women trying to act like men and trying to get men to be more like women. It's a hidden form of sexism that's accepted because it defies tradition.

I'm not saying we should enforce stereotypes. Please don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is that if women are, on average, physically less able than men to lift 100lbs, then so what? If men, on average, keep their emotions themselves more than the average woman does, so what? It's not like society is the source of this. It's in the genes. It's a consequence of having different sets of chromosomes. I'm perfectly fine with it.

My mom and dad raised me to love and accept who I am but also encouraged me to explore my options. I hate wearing skirts and dresses so I don't. At the same time, I love to watch romantic movies ("chick flicks") and I don't get offended when my male friends tease me about it. I don't resent guys for being bigger than me and I don't expect them to pretend to be anything they're not, just like I won't.

[Dempublicents1]

How is it that my male colleagues are attractive enough to face their job without make up, but I'm not? How is this idea not sexist?

Aesthetics is sexist now?

Arbitrary differences in treatment based on sex are sexist. The justification someone comes up with for them doesn't change that fact.

[OrangeCats]

Arbitrary differences in treatment based on sex are sexist. The justification someone comes up with for them doesn't change that fact.

The problem is people call too much of it arbitrary when it isn't.

[Ketrily]

Ah, Feminism was a good movement, and it achieved everything that needed to be done.

But it didn't stop.

Now, feminists are often advocating measures that, under the brand of "equality", promote the exact opposite. Women in the West have everything that comes under equality nowadays, equal pay, equal civil rights, the right to vote. They're equals. But feminist movement is now advocating women's rights over men's, pushing out media that belittles and insults men, and claims that all living men are responsible for the atrocities men of former generations invoked on women.

The feminist movement is like a Rock Star that just can't admit that their throat cancer has destroyed their ability to sing- so they croak, instead.

EDIT: Just for clarification, I'm referring here to Economic-Political feminism- you know, the front that lobbies Government all the godamn time. And some authors; they know who they are.