Feminism, misogyny and misandry.

[Ifreann]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

Just another day on NSG.

[Bottle]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

Look at it this way:

Consider how far feminism has come in the last hundred years, and then realize that every inch of that progress has had to come while we drag 99% of the population kicking and screaming into a more equal, more healthy, safer, and happier world. Sure, that means that contemplating our future work can be moderately depressing, since we know from history that there is exactly zero chance that things like "fact" or "reason" will convince anybody that we are more than a gaggle of hairy-legged nags who are just causing problems because no man will have us, but it also means something else:

We're more badass than all of those jerkwads put together.

/flex

[Neo Art]

Who the fuck uses the word "gynocentric" with a straight face anyway?

[Bottle]

Who the fuck uses the word "gynocentric" with a straight face anyway?

The manocentric members of the oppressive maleocracy, that's who!

[Ifreann]

Who the fuck uses the word "gynocentric" with a straight face anyway?

The manocentric members of the oppressive maleocracy, that's who!

Femnistas, unite! *smacks chest*

[Bottle]

The manocentric members of the oppressive maleocracy, that's who!

Femnistas, unite! *smacks chest*

Sidenote: my mom bought me a Clobberella action figure for Xmas. I don't know if they make Feminista Leela, but if they do I'm gonna get one, and then I'm going to build a shrine using the figures, a copy of The Second Sex, and a pile of tampons.

[Neo Art]

Who the fuck uses the word "gynocentric" with a straight face anyway?

The manocentric members of the oppressive maleocracy, that's who!

[Ifreann]

The manocentric members of the oppressive maleocracy, that's who!

17 minutes ago called, he said "Ninja'd".

[Neo Art]

17 minutes ago called, he said "Ninja'd".

you just had words bitch, I had snappy imagery.

[Ifreann]

17 minutes ago called, he said "Ninja'd".

you just had words bitch, I had snappy imagery.

I had better comedic timing. That's how I got there first.

[Dakini]

Considering earlier someone posted how men who actually try to win custody of their children succeed in about the same rate as women...

From the Massachusetts Supreme Court’s Gender Bias Study:

We began our investigation of child custody aware of a common perception that there is a bias in favor of women in these decisions. Our research contradicted this perception. Although mothers more frequently get primary physical custody of children following divorce, this practice does not reflect bias but rather the agreement of the parties and the fact that, in most families, mothers have been the primary caretakers of children. Fathers who actively seek custody obtain either primary or joint physical custody over 70% of the time.

...

Although perceptions of bias that discourage fathers from seeking custody are a concern, the outcome of cases in which custody is contested provides a more direct source of information about possible judicial gender bias. We heard testimony from George Kelly, a representative of Concerned Fathers, that in contested custody cases, mothers are awarded physical custody over 90% of the time. Mr. Kelly was unable to provide substantiation, however, and our own investigation revealed a very different picture.

The statewide sample of attorneys who responded to the family law survey had collectively represented fathers seeking custody in over 2,100 cases in the last 5 years. They reported that the fathers obtained primary physical custody in 29% of the cases, and joint physical custody in an additional 65% of the cases. Thus, when fathers actively sought physical custody, mothers obtained primary physical custody in only 7% of cases. The attorneys reported that the fathers had been primary caretakers in 29% of the cases in which they had sought custody.

The preliminary findings of the Middlesex Divorce Research Group relitigation study show a similarly high rate of paternal success, but fewer awards of joint physical custody. In their sample of 700 cases in Middlesex County between 1978 and 1984, fathers had sought custody in 57 cases (8.14% of the sample). In two-thirds of the cases in which fathers sought custody, they received primary physical custody (42% in which fathers were awarded sole legal and sole physical custody, plus 25% in which fathers were awarded joint legal and primary physical custody). Joint physical and joint legal custody was awarded in 3.5% of cases. In 11% of the cases, mothers received primary physical and joint legal custody; in 12%, mothers were awarded sole legal and physical custody; other custodial arrangements were ordered in the remaining cases. Thus, when fathers sought custody, mothers received primary physical custody in fewer than one-quarter of the cases in the Middlesex study. Information about which parent had been the primary caretaker was not available for the Middlesex cases.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Mass ... _Study.htm

So there's actually a male bias in contested custody cases?

Either that or men are more likely to fight for custody when the mother is unfit (e.g. a drug addict) in which case they're more likely to win? Or something like that?

[Bottle]

From the Massachusetts Supreme Court’s Gender Bias Study:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Mass ... _Study.htm

So there's actually a male bias in contested custody cases?

Either that or men are more likely to fight for custody when the mother is unfit (e.g. a drug addict) in which case they're more likely to win? Or something like that?

Something like that; I think the studies didn't investigate that in enough depth, though I'm still reading some of the primary sources. It is kind of surprising to me to read stuff like "when fathers actively sought physical custody, mothers obtained primary physical custody in only 7% of cases."

[Dakini]

So there's actually a male bias in contested custody cases?

Either that or men are more likely to fight for custody when the mother is unfit (e.g. a drug addict) in which case they're more likely to win? Or something like that?

Something like that; I think the studies didn't investigate that in enough depth, though I'm still reading some of the primary sources. It is kind of surprising to me to read stuff like "when fathers actively sought physical custody, mothers obtained primary physical custody in only 7% of cases."

Well, it would make sense if fathers primarily seek custody when the mother has other issues. If not, then this really puts a dent in the misogynist argument regarding custody bias, since it would appear that custody battles are actually biased against women (well, either way it does away with their argument). It's still surprising that it's that high though.

[Ryadn]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

Look at it this way:

Consider how far feminism has come in the last hundred years, and then realize that every inch of that progress has had to come while we drag 99% of the population kicking and screaming into a more equal, more healthy, safer, and happier world. Sure, that means that contemplating our future work can be moderately depressing, since we know from history that there is exactly zero chance that things like "fact" or "reason" will convince anybody that we are more than a gaggle of hairy-legged nags who are just causing problems because no man will have us, but it also means something else:

We're more badass than all of those jerkwads put together.

/flex

Well... when you put it that way. My New Year's resolution was to be more of a badass (true).

[Ryadn]

Something like that; I think the studies didn't investigate that in enough depth, though I'm still reading some of the primary sources. It is kind of surprising to me to read stuff like "when fathers actively sought physical custody, mothers obtained primary physical custody in only 7% of cases."

Well, it would make sense if fathers primarily seek custody when the mother has other issues. If not, then this really puts a dent in the misogynist argument regarding custody bias, since it would appear that custody battles are actually biased against women (well, either way it does away with their argument). It's still surprising that it's that high though.

I'm not seeing the male bias, but there are a lot of numbers going around. It said in 70% of the cases males received "sole or joint custody"--joint custody wouldn't show a bias toward either party, would it?

[Dakini]

Well, it would make sense if fathers primarily seek custody when the mother has other issues. If not, then this really puts a dent in the misogynist argument regarding custody bias, since it would appear that custody battles are actually biased against women (well, either way it does away with their argument). It's still surprising that it's that high though.

I'm not seeing the male bias, but there are a lot of numbers going around. It said in 70% of the cases males received "sole or joint custody"--joint custody wouldn't show a bias toward either party, would it?

I don't know, I'm not sure how joint custody works since I don't know any children of divorce who were in such arrangements.

I also think I missed the part where the same percentage of men (29%) who were the primary caregivers won primary custody. So maybe it's just that the courts tend to award custody to the primary caregivers (which is reasonable)? There are kind of a lot of numbers there though and it was early in the morning before my coffee so I think I got confused.

[Tokos]

It would indeed depend on what joint custody is. It could mean one parent has the kids most of the time while the other gets alternate weekends, or vice versa, or anything in between.

The statistics seem to indicate that US men are passive about these proceedings. What could be reasons for this?

[Lauchlin]

It would indeed depend on what joint custody is. It could mean one parent has the kids most of the time while the other gets alternate weekends, or vice versa, or anything in between.

The statistics seem to indicate that US men are passive about these proceedings. What could be reasons for this?

Men often don't want their kids.

[Dakini]

It would indeed depend on what joint custody is. It could mean one parent has the kids most of the time while the other gets alternate weekends, or vice versa, or anything in between.

The statistics seem to indicate that US men are passive about these proceedings. What could be reasons for this?

For the first, I would assume that primary custody means the alternate weekends deal for the non-primary partner. My best guess about shared parenting would be that it's alternate weeks or months or something along those lines?

For the second, who knows? It could be that fathers aren't often the primary caretakers so they don't tend to try to get primary custody? Maybe society's ideas about gender and parenting mean that many men are more likely to think that their soon-to-be-ex-wives are inherently better parents just because they're women (or at least, that they lack confidence in their parenting skills). Or perhaps this idea that men tend to lose custody battles means that many men just don't want to bother with a court battle and instead take custody deals where they see their kids every other weekend.

[GeneralHaNor]

It would indeed depend on what joint custody is. It could mean one parent has the kids most of the time while the other gets alternate weekends, or vice versa, or anything in between.

The statistics seem to indicate that US men are passive about these proceedings. What could be reasons for this?

Men often don't want their kids.

or alternatively are routinely discouraged by society and judicial bias


"How dare you seperate a child from it's mother, slink back into the shadows you dead beat bad"

Notice how we rarely here about dead beat mothers

[Dakini]

Men often don't want their kids.

or alternatively are routinely discouraged by society and judicial bias


"How dare you seperate a child from it's mother, slink back into the shadows you dead beat bad"

Notice how we rarely here about dead beat mothers

Except that when it comes to court and there is a custody battle, men tend to win primary custody a lot (and not infrequently sole custody). As you know, the study linked on this very page shows.

[Geniasis]

or alternatively are routinely discouraged by society and judicial bias


"How dare you seperate a child from it's mother, slink back into the shadows you dead beat bad"

Notice how we rarely here about dead beat mothers

The linked study shows that men tend to win primary custody the majority of the time.

[The Truth and Light]

The topic seems as if it has been beaten to death, but I still want to give my two cents.

I think feminism is a good thing. I think that seeking equality for women is a noble goal. I just think it goes sour when, in order to increase rights for women, some feminists seek to decrease men's rights.

However, feminism has a great track record. And I hope that feminists everywhere continue to fight for women's rights and equal treatment. As a male, I think a happy female is a good thing.

[The Parkus Empire]

Men often don't want their kids.

or alternatively are routinely discouraged by society and judicial bias


"How dare you seperate a child from it's mother, slink back into the shadows you dead beat bad"

Notice how we rarely here about dead beat mothers

It seems to be that dads who abandon the kids are considered the deadbeats, not the ones who genuinely care about them and want to spend time with them.

The reason deadbeat mothers are rarer is because it's kinda hard for a woman to leave a man pregnant with the baby.

[Ryadn]

or alternatively are routinely discouraged by society and judicial bias


"How dare you seperate a child from it's mother, slink back into the shadows you dead beat bad"

Notice how we rarely here about dead beat mothers

It seems to be that dads who abandon the kids are considered the deadbeats, not the ones who genuinely care about them and want to spend time with them.

The reason deadbeat mothers are rarer is because it's kinda hard for a woman to leave a man pregnant with the baby.

My ex's mother was a deadbeat mom. Packed up the house and took off when he was five or six. It isn't common, but it happens, and his dad raised him and his sister most of their lives.

I'd give his dad kudos for stepping to the plate and being both mother and father to two kids in difficult times, but then I'd be a feminist promoting equal rights and recognizing the valuable contributions that fathers make towards their children, and the good general hanor's head might explode.