Feminism, misogyny and misandry.

[Ryadn]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

[Batuni]

The thing with "no true Scotsman" is that it's only a fallacy when it's, you know, fallacious. It's not actually a fallacy to say, "Susan isn't a true Scotsman because she's not from Scotland, has no Scottish heritage or ancestry, and isn't a man."

The fallacy occurs when you invent your own defining quality, not when you use the actual dictionary definition of a word. It would be a "no true Scotsman" fallacy to say "this person who believes in the social, legal, and economic equality of the sexes but does not believe affirmative action is a good way to achieve that end is not a feminist." It very definitely is NOT a "no true Scotsman" fallacy to say "this person who does not believe in the social, legal, and economic equality of the sexes is not a feminist, because that's the goddamn definition of the word 'feminist'."

But how do we decide that belief in equality of the sexes is the correct definition of feminism? What if someone said that feminism is defined as the belief that pumpkins are evil? Why would they necessarily be wrong?

Because they would be inaccurate?

Feminism is an ideology, a concept expounding certain beliefs and goals; to wit, that equality of the genders (or sexual identity/gender/sex... I get confused when we deconstruct the gender binary, I'll admit.) is both moral and desirable, and should be striven for.

A Scotsman is just someone born within a certain geographic location.

If we wish to argue about whom gets to define the term, perhaps we should look to those who coined it in the first place?

Otherwise we can also debate the meanings of 'Belief', 'Pumpkin', and 'Evil.' Or Definition! I mean, who gets to say that 'Definition' can't mean 'Supposition', or 'Ridiculed.'

Hmmm... "What if someone said that feminism is ridiculed as the belief that pumpkins are evil?"

[Batuni]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

The problem is that there is certainly a huge misconception as to what precisely feminism is. The name doesn't help, as to many people it rings of exclusionism (sorry lads, women only), which is only worsened when you see so-called feminists state that men cannot be feminists (maybe it's rare, I dunno, but I've seen it). Which is part of the reason some people prefer to use the term 'egalitarian.'

Then there are those, and we've seen so many on this thread, who mistake 'feminist' and 'misandrist', which isn't totally unfair, as many misandrists claim to be feminists, often without realising their own error.

Interestingly, the spell-checker doesn't recognise the terms 'misandry' or 'misandrist.'


I suppose one could conclude that what Feminism needs is a resurgence of public awareness, perhaps some sort of advertising campaign to highlight and clarify its goals.
One that includes their interest in assisting men as well as women, in order to lay to rest beliefs to the contrary.

Of course, given that Feminism is an ideology, rather than a company or a charity, or a political body, such a campaignis unlikely to the extreme.

[Eskandapolis]

Okay, I just finished page 37, and I cannot. Fucking. Go on. The collective ignorance and vitriol is astounding. I'm trying hard to believe that some of these "non-feminist women" coming out of the woodwork (and hi, we haven't seen you around here until now) are just people trolling and trying to use an appeal to authority---"I (play a woman on the internet) and I'm okay with misogyny, so shut up, feminazis!" but I have to admit the possibility that people who have somehow learned to use a computer are really still that blindingly misinformed. I now have less faith in humanity than when I signed on a few minutes ago. Well done.

The problem is that there is certainly a huge misconception as to what precisely feminism is. The name doesn't help, as to many people it rings of exclusionism (sorry lads, women only), which is only worsened when you see so-called feminists state that men cannot be feminists (maybe it's rare, I dunno, but I've seen it). Which is part of the reason some people prefer to use the term 'egalitarian.'

Then there are those, and we've seen so many on this thread, who mistake 'feminist' and 'misandrist', which isn't totally unfair, as many misandrists claim to be feminists, often without realising their own error.

Interestingly, the spell-checker doesn't recognise the terms 'misandry' or 'misandrist.'


I suppose one could conclude that what Feminism needs is a resurgence of public awareness, perhaps some sort of advertising campaign to highlight and clarify its goals.
One that includes their interest in assisting men as well as women, in order to lay to rest beliefs to the contrary.

Of course, given that Feminism is an ideology, rather than a company or a charity, or a political body, such a campaignis unlikely to the extreme.

The problem is that many "misandrists" label themselves as feminists. Feminism and Misandry don't have more in common than "rational" patriotism and nazism, the latter uses the fears and ideals of the first and distorts them into more than an ideology. That's the reason I say I usually mention I'm in favour of "gender equality" as here a guy supporting femminism isn't well seen

[The Parkus Empire]

The problem is that many "misandrists" label themselves as feminists. Feminism and Misandry don't have more in common than "rational" patriotism and nazism, the latter uses the fears and ideals of the first and distorts them into more than an ideology. That's the reason I say I usually mention I'm in favour of "gender equality" as here a guy supporting femminism isn't well seen

That's probably because gender-equality isn't well seen.

[Fasciscia]

The problem is that many "misandrists" label themselves as feminists. Feminism and Misandry don't have more in common than "rational" patriotism and nazism, the latter uses the fears and ideals of the first and distorts them into more than an ideology. That's the reason I say I usually mention I'm in favour of "gender equality" as here a guy supporting femminism isn't well seen

That's probably because gender-equality isn't well seen.

Maybe, but I don't think that's the main factor. Here feminism is used by a lot of women who could be better described as "female chauvinists" who practically claim a man should be his wife's servant and her "sex toy"

[Desperate Measures]

That's probably because gender-equality isn't well seen.

Maybe, but I don't think that's the main factor. Here feminism is used by a lot of women who could be better described as "female chauvinists" who practically claim a man should be his wife's servant and her "sex toy"

THIS is why I am a male that identifies as a feminist. Because it is completely awesome!

[The Parkus Empire]

Maybe, but I don't think that's the main factor. Here feminism is used by a lot of women who could be better described as "female chauvinists" who practically claim a man should be his wife's servant and her "sex toy"

Well hell, if women are so prominently dominant there, then I'd think you'd want to get in their favor.

[The Parkus Empire]

Maybe, but I don't think that's the main factor. Here feminism is used by a lot of women who could be better described as "female chauvinists" who practically claim a man should be his wife's servant and her "sex toy"

THIS is why I am a male that identifies as a feminist. Because it is completely awesome!

Heh, another guy who's into sub.

[Desperate Measures]

THIS is why I am a male that identifies as a feminist. Because it is completely awesome!

Heh, another guy who's into sub.

Caught me....

[GeneralHaNor]

Maybe, but I don't think that's the main factor. Here feminism is used by a lot of women who could be better described as "female chauvinists" who practically claim a man should be his wife's servant and her "sex toy"

Well hell, if women are so prominently dominant there, then I'd think you'd want to get in their favor.

Yeah...no
I am already subservient to the state
I don't need another layer of masters

also, why does "Chauvinist" = Bad?
and "Feminist" = Good?

Define Feminism
The Define Chauvinism
and see if the definitions are "Congruent"

[The Parkus Empire]

Well hell, if women are so prominently dominant there, then I'd think you'd want to get in their favor.

Yeah...no
I am already subservient to the state
I don't need another layer of masters

also, why does "Chauvinist" = Bad?
and "Feminist" = Good?

Define Feminism
The Define Chauvinism
and see if the definitions are "Congruent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

[Geniasis]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

i don't care what your "Facts" say
i know what i've observed
and i love haiku

[GeneralHaNor]

Yeah...no
I am already subservient to the state
I don't need another layer of masters

also, why does "Chauvinist" = Bad?
and "Feminist" = Good?

Define Feminism
The Define Chauvinism
and see if the definitions are "Congruent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

No results for chauvinism
please try again
and try not to fail

[GeneralHaNor]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

i don't care what your "Facts" say
i know what i've observed
and i love haiku

You do such a spot on imitation
I can't wait to see your stand up act
Hurp Derp

[The Parkus Empire]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

No results for chauvinism
please try again
and try not to fail

There are five results. You try again.

[GeneralHaNor]

No results for chauvinism
please try again
and try not to fail

There are five results. You try again.

K
Not congruent, what does this tell us?
That being Pro-Male is bad

[The Parkus Empire]

There are five results. You try again.

K
Not congruent, what does this tell us?
That being Pro-Male is bad

Believing in the superiority of one's sex is bad, yes.

[GeneralHaNor]

K
Not congruent, what does this tell us?
That being Pro-Male is bad

Believing in the superiority of one's sex is bad, yes.

Let's experiment

Let's replace the gender specific nouns of the definition for feminism
"the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of men equal to those of women. "

What would you call this word?
Does it even exist?

[The Theban Legion]

So...what happens, for instance, in the military when the standard for a man is that he must maintain at all times combat readiness or risk being dishonourably discharged and or court martialed but a woman is allowed to be pregnant and miss a movement with little to no complaint. Does biology allow for such breaches of contract or should we apply feministic equality there too and demand that she be as constantly battle ready as the man?

[The Theban Legion]

K
Not congruent, what does this tell us?
That being Pro-Male is bad

Believing in the superiority of one's sex is bad, yes.

But I will have to say that when I know that there is a woman kickboxer out there who could kick my head clean off, I don't want to imply there is a superiority of my sex only that there are different expectations of the sexes within society and until those expectations are made equal women don't deserve equality of station or reward (this is only in terms of the military, though there may be other examples).

[The Parkus Empire]

Let's experiment

Let's replace the gender specific nouns of the definition for feminism
"the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of men equal to those of women. "

What would you call this word?
Does it even exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

[The Parkus Empire]

So...what happens, for instance, in the military when the standard for a man is that he must maintain at all times combat readiness or risk being dishonourably discharged and or court martialed but a woman is allowed to be pregnant and miss a movement with little to no complaint. Does biology allow for such breaches of contract or should we apply feministic equality there too and demand that she be as constantly battle ready as the man?

Well, no, just like if a man accidentally gets his dick chopped off we don't expect him to function for movement just because a woman can 'cause she doesn't have a dick either. That's really not a good point.

[GeneralHaNor]

Let's experiment

Let's replace the gender specific nouns of the definition for feminism
"the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of men equal to those of women. "

What would you call this word?
Does it even exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

Your link specifically calls it an anti-feminist movement

so why do feminists claim the territory that this movement already covers?

[Ryadn]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chauvinism

i don't care what your "Facts" say
i know what i've observed
and i love haiku

I'll admit it, that restored a tiny measure of my faith in humanity. Which should really frighten us all.