NATION

PASSWORD

Is god real?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Is god real?

Yes
450
40%
Undecided
185
16%
No
492
44%
 
Total votes : 1127

User avatar
The Southron Nation
Diplomat
 
Posts: 712
Founded: Nov 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Southron Nation » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:18 pm

Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologia cirqa 1270

Article II. Whether the existence of God is demonstrable:

Let us proceed to the second point. It is objected (1) that the existence of God is not demonstratable: that God's existence is an article of faith, and that articles of faith are not demonstratable, because the office of demonstration is to prove, but faith pertains (only) to things that are not to be proven, as is evident from the Epistle to the Hebrews, 11. Hence that God's existence is not demonstratable. Again, (2) that the subject matter of demonstration is that something exists, but in the case of God we cannot know what exists, but only what does not, as Damascenus says (Of the Orthodox Faith, I., 4.) Hence that we cannot demonstrate God's existence. Again, (3) that if God's existence is to be proved it must be from what He causes, and that what He effects is not sufficient for His supposed nature, since He is infinite, but the effects finite, and the finite is not proportional to the infinite. Since, therefore, a cause cannot be proved through an effect not proportional to itself, it is said that God's exisence cannot be proved.

But against this argument the apostle says (Rom. I., 20), "The unseen things of God are visible through His manifest works." But this would not be so unless it were possible to demonstrate God's existence through His works. What ought to be understood concerning anything, is first of all, whether it exists. Conclusion. It is possible to demonstrate God's existence, atthough not a priori (by pure reason), yet a posteriori from some work of His more surely known to us.

In answer I must say that the proof is double. One is through the nature of a cause and is called propter quid: this is through the nature of preceding events sirnply. The other is through the nature of the effect, and is called quia, and is through the nature of preceding things as respects us. Since the effect is better known to us than the cause, we proceed from the effect to the knowledge of the cause. From any effect whatsoever it can be proved that a corresponding cause exists, if only the effects of it are sufficiently known to us, for since effects depend on causes, the effect being given, it is necessary that a preceding cause exists. Whence, that God exists, although this is not itself known to us, is provable through effects that are known to us.

To the first objection above, I reply, therefore, that God's existence, and those other things of this nature that can be known through natural reason concerning God, as is said in Rom. I., are not articles of faith, but preambles to these articles. So faith presupposes natural knowledge, so grace nature, and perfection a perfectible thing. Nothing prevents a thing that is in itself demonstratable and knowable, from being accepted as an article of faith by someone that does not accept the proof of it.

To the second objection, I reply that, since the cause is proven from the effect, one must use the effect in the place of a definition of the cause in demonstrating that the cause exists; and that this applies especially in the case of God, because for proving that anything exists, it is necessary to accept in this method what the name signifies, not however that anything exists, because the question what it is is secondary to the question whether it exists at all. The characteristics of God are drawn from His works as shall be shown hereafter, (Question XIII). Whence by proving that God exists through His works as shall be shown hereafter, (Question XIII). Whence by proving that God exists through His works, we are able by this very method to see what the name God signifies.

To the third objection, I reply that, although a perfect knowledge of the cause cannot be had from inadequate effects, yet that from any effect manifest to us it can be shown that a cause does exist, as has been said. And thus from the works of God His existence can be proved, although we cannot in this way know Him perfectly in accordance with His own essence.

Article III. Whether God exists.

Let us proceed to the third article. It is objected (1) that God does not exist, because if one of two contradictory things is infinite, the other will be totally destroyed; that it is implied in the name God that there is a certain infinite goodness: if then God existed, no evil would be found. But evil is found in the world; therefore it is objected that God does not exist. Again, that what can be accomplished through a less number of principles will not be accomplished through more. It is objected that all things that appear on the earth can be accounted for through other principles, without supposing that God exists, since what is natural can be traced to a natural principle, and what proceeds from a proposition can be traced to the human reason or will. Therefore that there is no necessity to suppose that God exists. But as against this note what is said of the person of God (Exod. III., 14) I am that I am. Conclusion. There must be found in the nature of things one first immovable Being, a primary cause, necessarily existing, not created; existing the most widely, good, even the best possible; the first ruler through the intellect, and the ultimate end of all things, which is God.

I answer that it can be proved in five ways that God exists.

The first and plainest is the method that proceeds from the point of view of motion. It is certain and in accord with experience, that things on earth undergo change. Now, everything that is moved is moved by something; nothing, indeed, is changed, except it is changed to something which it is in potentiality. Moreover, anything moves in accordance with something actually existing; change itself, is nothing else than to bring forth something from potentiality into actuality. Now, nothing can be brought from potentiality to actual existence except through something actually existing: thus heat in action, as fire, makes fire-wood, which is hot in potentiality, to be hot actually, and through this process, changes itself. The same thing cannot at the same time be actually and potentially the same thing, but only in regard to different things. What is actually hot cannot be at the same time potentially hot, but it is possible for it at the same time to be potentially cold. It is impossible, then, that anything should be both mover and the thing moved, in regard to the same thing and in the same way, or that it should move itself. Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand. Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing---and this all men know as God.

The second proof is from the nature of the efficient cause. We find in our experience that there is a chain of causes: nor is it found possible for anything to be the efficient cause of itself, since it would have to exist before itself, which is impossible. Nor in the case of efficient causes can the chain go back indefinitely, because in all chains of efficient causes, the first is the cause of the middle, and these of the last, whether they be one or many. If the cause is removed, the effect is removed. Hence if there is not a first cause, there will not be a last, nor a middle. But if the chain were to go back infinitely, there would be no first cause, and thus no ultimate effect, nor middle causes, which is admittedly false. Hence we must presuppose some first efficient cause---which all call God.

The third proof is taken from the natures of the merely possible and necessary. We find that certain things either may or may not exist, since they are found to come into being and be destroyed, and in consequence potentially, either existent or non-existent. But it is impossible for all things that are of this character to exist eternally, because what may not exist, at length will not. If, then, all things were merely possible (mere accidents), eventually nothing among things would exist. If this is true, even now there would be nothing, because what does not exist, does not take its beginning except through something that does exist. If then nothing existed, it would be impossible for anything to begin, and there would now be nothing existing, which is admittedly false. Hence not all things are mere accidents, but there must be one necessarily existing being. Now every necessary thing either has a cause of its necessary existence, or has not. In the case of necessary things that have a cause for their necessary existence, the chain of causes cannot go back infinitely, just as not in the case of efficient causes, as proved. Hence there must be presupposed something necessarily existing through its own nature, not having a cause elsewhere but being itself the cause of the necessary existence of other things---which all call God.

The fourth proof arises from the degrees that are found in things. For there is found a greater and a less degree of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like. But more or less are terms spoken of various things as they approach in diverse ways toward something that is the greatest, just as in the case of hotter (more hot) which approaches nearer the greatest heat. There exists therefore something that is the truest, and best, and most noble, and in consequence, the greatest being. For what are the greatest truths are the greatest beings, as is said in the Metaphysics Bk. II. 2. What moreover is the greatest in its way, in another way is the cause of all things of its own kind (or genus); thus fire, which is the greatest heat, is the cause of all heat, as is said in the same book (cf. Plato and Aristotle). Therefore there exists something that is the cause of the existence of all things and of the goodness and of every perfection whatsoever---and this we call God.

The fifth proof arises from the ordering of things for we see that some things which lack reason, such as natural bodies, are operated in accordance with a plan. It appears from this that they are operated always or the more frequently in this same way the closer they follow what is the Highest; whence it is clear that they do not arrive at the result by chance but because of a purpose. The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God.

In response to the first objection, then, I reply what Augustine says; that since God is entirely good, He would permit evil to exist in His works only if He were so good and omnipotent that He might bring forth good even from the evil. It therefore pertains to the infinite goodness of God that he permits evil to exist and from this brings forth good.

My reply to the second objection is that since nature is ordered in accordance with some defined purpose by the direction of some superior agent, those things that spring from nature must be dependent upon God, just as upon a first cause. Likewise, what springs from a proposition must be traceable to some higher cause which is not the human reason or will, because this is changeable and defective and everything changeable and liable to non-existence is dependent upon some unchangeable first principle that is necessarily self-existent as has been shown.
Last edited by The Southron Nation on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Confederate Republics of the Southron Nation
What if the South had been recognized by the Union?

Aka Distruzio

Anarcho-Monarchism is an anti-egalitarian, anti-democratic, anti-statist, and anti-corporatist, conservative-libertarian movement that stresses tradition, responsibility, liberty, virtue, localism, market anarchy, voluntary segregation and personalism, along with familial, religious, and regional identity founded upon self-ownership and personified by a totem monarch.

User avatar
Gagatron
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1979
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Gagatron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:19 pm

Rokartian States wrote:
Gagatron wrote:
Ah, but He's tried that.


It didn't work. Perhaps he's not omnipotent?


I didn't say it didn't work. Of course, the people who saw God believed in his existence.
God, I want to dream again,
Take me where I've never been.
I wanna go there,
This time I'm not scared.
Music, love, peace, joy, history, religion, foreign cultures, foreign language, philosophy, debating, etc.


Zilam wrote:It always strikes me funny when people always complain "If God is good, why does he allow evil to exist"....Yet when God destroys every evil person in a flood, its a bad thing.

All sin is deserving of death.

User avatar
Rokartian States
Minister
 
Posts: 2349
Founded: Nov 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Rokartian States » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:21 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Rokartian States wrote:
It didn't work. Perhaps he's not omnipotent?


I didn't say it didn't work.


But it obviously didn't.

Of course, the people who saw God believed in his existence.


Why didn't he record some sort of proof of his existence? Why has he not continued to reveal himself to us?
Note: My nation does not necessarily represent my true political views.

Southern United Africa wrote:Say "pray" over and over in quick succession. I dare you.


Jobbla wrote:hey dude my bitch is a mod on this site shes gonna punish you for squealing on me!


Norstal wrote:That is egotistical on so many level. Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.


Sozut wrote:IT IS DEFINITELY BIRDS!


Sibirsky wrote:The truth is, you ideology has failed, will continue to fail, and is made of fail.


Embrihated Koalas wrote:SO THEIR BALLS ARE INERT


Cnetral america wrote:you have int got the flu soooo long it cagt you up
:geek:

User avatar
Gagatron
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1979
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Gagatron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:26 pm

Rokartian States wrote:Why didn't he record some sort of proof of his existence?

Have you not heard of the Bible?

Rokartian States wrote:Why has he not continued to reveal himself to us?

Because if he reveals himself to an individual person, science explains it away. If he reveals himself to multiple people, he takes away free will. If he reveals himself to the whole world, he deems the world worthy of no longer being seperated from him, and that will only happen in the end times.
God, I want to dream again,
Take me where I've never been.
I wanna go there,
This time I'm not scared.
Music, love, peace, joy, history, religion, foreign cultures, foreign language, philosophy, debating, etc.


Zilam wrote:It always strikes me funny when people always complain "If God is good, why does he allow evil to exist"....Yet when God destroys every evil person in a flood, its a bad thing.

All sin is deserving of death.

User avatar
Northern Emirates
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 414
Founded: Jun 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Emirates » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:29 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Rokartian States wrote:Why didn't he record some sort of proof of his existence?

Have you not heard of the Bible?



Rokartian States wrote:Why has he not continued to reveal himself to us?

Because if he reveals himself to an individual person, science explains it away. If he reveals himself to multiple people, he takes away free will. If he reveals himself to the whole world, he deems the world worthy of no longer being seperated from him, and that will only happen in the end times.



Oh, that thing? That book that contradicts itself and reveals multiple acts of brutality by 'God's people'?
What about the Koran? And the Torah? Those claim to have God's word, too.

This sounds suspiciously like an excuse to me.
Last edited by Northern Emirates on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Northern Emirates Web Page
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -4.12, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.54

Keep your friends close, keep your enemies at sniper range.

User avatar
Rokartian States
Minister
 
Posts: 2349
Founded: Nov 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Rokartian States » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:30 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Rokartian States wrote:Why didn't he record some sort of proof of his existence?

Have you not heard of the Bible?


Oh yeah, you mean that book whose authorship is 100% unconfirmed? Yeah, I've heard of that.

I meant documentation that was irrefutable.

Rokartian States wrote:Why has he not continued to reveal himself to us?

Because if he reveals himself to an individual person, science explains it away. If he reveals himself to multiple people, he takes away free will. If he reveals himself to the whole world, he deems the world worthy of no longer being seperated from him, and that will only happen in the end times.


Revealing himself to multiple people does no such thing. Those to whom he has revealed himself could easily choose to continue to disbelieve in him. As far as revealing himself to the world goes, if we are the creations of a perfect being, we should always have been worthy of being united with him.
Note: My nation does not necessarily represent my true political views.

Southern United Africa wrote:Say "pray" over and over in quick succession. I dare you.


Jobbla wrote:hey dude my bitch is a mod on this site shes gonna punish you for squealing on me!


Norstal wrote:That is egotistical on so many level. Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.


Sozut wrote:IT IS DEFINITELY BIRDS!


Sibirsky wrote:The truth is, you ideology has failed, will continue to fail, and is made of fail.


Embrihated Koalas wrote:SO THEIR BALLS ARE INERT


Cnetral america wrote:you have int got the flu soooo long it cagt you up
:geek:

User avatar
Zeth Rekia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18387
Founded: Oct 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Zeth Rekia » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:30 pm

Rokartian States wrote:
Gagatron wrote:

Why didn't he record some sort of proof of his existence? Why has he not continued to reveal himself to us?


Cause he's not a god. If he was a god he would have instant access to means of recording events in video and audio. Add to this, the disc, or whatever he used, would be backwards compatible with any future human technology. Also, the disc would never break as it would be invincible.
Seeing this disc and it's contents would count as irrefutable proof of gods existence.

But, the idea of god was constructed and put to paper by humans. At the time they could not imagine a system like that mentioned above.

Therefore no deity figure was involved. God is an idea. An idea created by man writing fictional stories based around ancient history that at the time was current events.

Conclusion. god does not exist outside of his little novel.
Last edited by Zeth Rekia on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Unchecked Expansion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5599
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unchecked Expansion » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:35 pm

Gagatron wrote: If he reveals himself to the whole world, he deems the world worthy of no longer being seperated from him, and that will only happen in the end times.

Why were we deemed unworthy anyway? It wasn't anything I did. If I recall, it was his mistake in the firstplace (by judeo-christian mythology)

User avatar
Gagatron
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1979
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Gagatron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:39 pm

Unchecked Expansion wrote:
Gagatron wrote: If he reveals himself to the whole world, he deems the world worthy of no longer being seperated from him, and that will only happen in the end times.

Why were we deemed unworthy anyway? It wasn't anything I did. If I recall, it was his mistake in the firstplace (by judeo-christian mythology)

You just don't happen to understand, don't worry.
God, I want to dream again,
Take me where I've never been.
I wanna go there,
This time I'm not scared.
Music, love, peace, joy, history, religion, foreign cultures, foreign language, philosophy, debating, etc.


Zilam wrote:It always strikes me funny when people always complain "If God is good, why does he allow evil to exist"....Yet when God destroys every evil person in a flood, its a bad thing.

All sin is deserving of death.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159069
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:41 pm

Sumamba Buwhan wrote:
Ifreann wrote:What kind of God wouldn't keep one around for impregnating random women/animals?


A real God wouldn't need a penis for that. You're thinking of false Gods. The ones that come to Earth in spacecraft to check up on their planetary petri dish.

Never mind 'need', I'd have figured it'd be more fun that way.


Gagatron wrote:Then, how does [nature] adapt so well to the environment, and have so many successful experiments?

Gagatron wrote:Nature is the universe. Humans are a part of it. We are all in nature.

This makes no sense at all.

User avatar
Rokartian States
Minister
 
Posts: 2349
Founded: Nov 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Rokartian States » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:42 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Unchecked Expansion wrote:Why were we deemed unworthy anyway? It wasn't anything I did. If I recall, it was his mistake in the firstplace (by judeo-christian mythology)

You just don't happen to understand, don't worry.


Neither do I. Could you please explain it?
Note: My nation does not necessarily represent my true political views.

Southern United Africa wrote:Say "pray" over and over in quick succession. I dare you.


Jobbla wrote:hey dude my bitch is a mod on this site shes gonna punish you for squealing on me!


Norstal wrote:That is egotistical on so many level. Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.


Sozut wrote:IT IS DEFINITELY BIRDS!


Sibirsky wrote:The truth is, you ideology has failed, will continue to fail, and is made of fail.


Embrihated Koalas wrote:SO THEIR BALLS ARE INERT


Cnetral america wrote:you have int got the flu soooo long it cagt you up
:geek:

User avatar
Unchecked Expansion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5599
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unchecked Expansion » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:43 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Unchecked Expansion wrote:Why were we deemed unworthy anyway? It wasn't anything I did. If I recall, it was his mistake in the firstplace (by judeo-christian mythology)

You just don't happen to understand, don't worry.

So, punished for an act I wasn't even equipped to understand by the 'creator' who chose the rules...
That's 'infinitely loving' out of the window

User avatar
Luciratus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1727
Founded: Apr 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Luciratus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:00 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Sumamba Buwhan wrote:
A real God wouldn't need a penis for that. You're thinking of false Gods. The ones that come to Earth in spacecraft to check up on their planetary petri dish.

Never mind 'need', I'd have figured it'd be more fun that way.


Gagatron wrote:Then, how does [nature] adapt so well to the environment, and have so many successful experiments?

Gagatron wrote:Nature is the universe. Humans are a part of it. We are all in nature.

This makes no sense at all.

The nature part does make sense, at least. That is, the second part. Everything could be considered Nature.
Stop the killing! Free Libya!
Please, help Japan and Oceania in any manner possible. Pray or hope for their safety and health.
I am a Grammar Nazi. As such, I prefer posts that are comprehensible.
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Cameroi wrote:And I still say, 9 out of 10 fetuses would rather be aborted then be born unwanted.

Did you poll those fetuses on their opinion?

Ezekiel Bardoff (dictator)
Yavid Biram (chairman)
Yashua Mithridates (two terms)
Alistaire Hawthorne (current)

Factbook

User avatar
Luciratus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1727
Founded: Apr 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Luciratus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:02 pm

Rokartian States wrote:
Gagatron wrote:You just don't happen to understand, don't worry.


Neither do I. Could you please explain it?

The Jews and Christians believe that all humanity is depraved. For this reason you are unworthy. After all, a deity is perfection. :roll: If you had even scimmed the bible you would have been able to leap to the point of the matter instead of dancing around it. There is no point in discussing a deity's morality or motives if you do not believe said deity exists. :palm:
Stop the killing! Free Libya!
Please, help Japan and Oceania in any manner possible. Pray or hope for their safety and health.
I am a Grammar Nazi. As such, I prefer posts that are comprehensible.
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Cameroi wrote:And I still say, 9 out of 10 fetuses would rather be aborted then be born unwanted.

Did you poll those fetuses on their opinion?

Ezekiel Bardoff (dictator)
Yavid Biram (chairman)
Yashua Mithridates (two terms)
Alistaire Hawthorne (current)

Factbook

User avatar
Gagatron
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1979
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Gagatron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:13 pm

Unchecked Expansion wrote:
Gagatron wrote:You just don't happen to understand, don't worry.

So, punished for an act I wasn't even equipped to understand by the 'creator' who chose the rules...
That's 'infinitely loving' out of the window


Here's the thing. God created humanity perfect, but he gave them one command to obey. That was their test. They would have passed if it weren't for Satan. Satan, by the way, is evil and imperfect, not by God's will, but by his own will. See, when one knows God exists as a fact, it does not promise obiedence or love. Satan chose to hate God. Anyway. Satan tempted Eve, and Eve, who had no comprehension of the evil she was doing, disobeyed. Then her eyes were opened, and she understood the evil. But rathert than stopping, she seduced Adam, who also disobeyed, and became evil as well. So here is the chain of blame:
Adam > Eve > Satan
God, I want to dream again,
Take me where I've never been.
I wanna go there,
This time I'm not scared.
Music, love, peace, joy, history, religion, foreign cultures, foreign language, philosophy, debating, etc.


Zilam wrote:It always strikes me funny when people always complain "If God is good, why does he allow evil to exist"....Yet when God destroys every evil person in a flood, its a bad thing.

All sin is deserving of death.

User avatar
Unchecked Expansion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5599
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unchecked Expansion » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:20 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Unchecked Expansion wrote:So, punished for an act I wasn't even equipped to understand by the 'creator' who chose the rules...
That's 'infinitely loving' out of the window


Here's the thing. God created humanity perfect, but he gave them one command to obey. That was their test. They would have passed if it weren't for Satan. Satan, by the way, is evil and imperfect, not by God's will, but by his own will. See, when one knows God exists as a fact, it does not promise obiedence or love. Satan chose to hate God. Anyway. Satan tempted Eve, and Eve, who had no comprehension of the evil she was doing, disobeyed. Then her eyes were opened, and she understood the evil. But rathert than stopping, she seduced Adam, who also disobeyed, and became evil as well. So here is the chain of blame:
Adam > Eve > Satan

Adam is more to blame than Satan? And didn't god create Satan,doing so imperfectly, which with perfect wisdom would have to have been intentional. Plus, Adam didn't do anything wrong, lacking comprehension. And I certainly didn't doing anything, not being born yet. Why am I being punished for an act the I didn't commit?

User avatar
Luciratus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1727
Founded: Apr 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Luciratus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:21 pm

Unchecked Expansion wrote:
Gagatron wrote:
Here's the thing. God created humanity perfect, but he gave them one command to obey. That was their test. They would have passed if it weren't for Satan. Satan, by the way, is evil and imperfect, not by God's will, but by his own will. See, when one knows God exists as a fact, it does not promise obiedence or love. Satan chose to hate God. Anyway. Satan tempted Eve, and Eve, who had no comprehension of the evil she was doing, disobeyed. Then her eyes were opened, and she understood the evil. But rathert than stopping, she seduced Adam, who also disobeyed, and became evil as well. So here is the chain of blame:
Adam > Eve > Satan

Adam is more to blame than Satan? And didn't god create Satan,doing so imperfectly, which with perfect wisdom would have to have been intentional. Plus, Adam didn't do anything wrong, lacking comprehension. And I certainly didn't doing anything, not being born yet. Why am I being punished for an act the I didn't commit?

The joys of literal translation. :roll:
Stop the killing! Free Libya!
Please, help Japan and Oceania in any manner possible. Pray or hope for their safety and health.
I am a Grammar Nazi. As such, I prefer posts that are comprehensible.
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Cameroi wrote:And I still say, 9 out of 10 fetuses would rather be aborted then be born unwanted.

Did you poll those fetuses on their opinion?

Ezekiel Bardoff (dictator)
Yavid Biram (chairman)
Yashua Mithridates (two terms)
Alistaire Hawthorne (current)

Factbook

User avatar
Rokartian States
Minister
 
Posts: 2349
Founded: Nov 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Rokartian States » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:34 pm

Gagatron wrote:
Unchecked Expansion wrote:So, punished for an act I wasn't even equipped to understand by the 'creator' who chose the rules...
That's 'infinitely loving' out of the window


Here's the thing. God created humanity perfect, but he gave them one command to obey. That was their test. They would have passed if it weren't for Satan. Satan, by the way, is evil and imperfect, not by God's will, but by his own will. See, when one knows God exists as a fact, it does not promise obiedence or love. Satan chose to hate God. Anyway. Satan tempted Eve, and Eve, who had no comprehension of the evil she was doing, disobeyed. Then her eyes were opened, and she understood the evil. But rathert than stopping, she seduced Adam, who also disobeyed, and became evil as well. So here is the chain of blame:
Adam > Eve > Satan


If God hadn't screwed up when making humans, none of that would have happened in the first place. There's no reason for God to make humans such that we are vulnerable to temptation.
Note: My nation does not necessarily represent my true political views.

Southern United Africa wrote:Say "pray" over and over in quick succession. I dare you.


Jobbla wrote:hey dude my bitch is a mod on this site shes gonna punish you for squealing on me!


Norstal wrote:That is egotistical on so many level. Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.


Sozut wrote:IT IS DEFINITELY BIRDS!


Sibirsky wrote:The truth is, you ideology has failed, will continue to fail, and is made of fail.


Embrihated Koalas wrote:SO THEIR BALLS ARE INERT


Cnetral america wrote:you have int got the flu soooo long it cagt you up
:geek:

User avatar
Nort Eurasia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 950
Founded: Jul 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nort Eurasia » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:36 pm

Zeth Rekia wrote:
Zeth Rekia wrote:Sparkles has magical powers that make me feel all warm inside.

Indeed he does.


Priests can make you feel warm inside too, but in an awkward way.. :meh:
You should not give in to evils, but proceed ever so boldly against them.

What is asserted without reason may be denied without reason.

A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.

He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

User avatar
Norstal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41465
Founded: Mar 07, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:55 pm

Unchecked Expansion wrote:
Gagatron wrote:
Here's the thing. God created humanity perfect, but he gave them one command to obey. That was their test. They would have passed if it weren't for Satan. Satan, by the way, is evil and imperfect, not by God's will, but by his own will. See, when one knows God exists as a fact, it does not promise obiedence or love. Satan chose to hate God. Anyway. Satan tempted Eve, and Eve, who had no comprehension of the evil she was doing, disobeyed. Then her eyes were opened, and she understood the evil. But rathert than stopping, she seduced Adam, who also disobeyed, and became evil as well. So here is the chain of blame:
Adam > Eve > Satan

Adam is more to blame than Satan? And didn't god create Satan,doing so imperfectly, which with perfect wisdom would have to have been intentional. Plus, Adam didn't do anything wrong, lacking comprehension. And I certainly didn't doing anything, not being born yet. Why am I being punished for an act the I didn't commit?

Satan sounds like a badass now.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★


New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.


IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10


NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.



Supreme Chairman for Life of the Itty Bitty Kitty Committee

User avatar
FREEaquaticdancelesson
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1031
Founded: Nov 08, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby FREEaquaticdancelesson » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:07 pm

I AM GOD. Creator of all that is seen and unseen! I am the alpha and the omega!

Don't believe me? Well, I don't have proof, but I have written that I am god, therefor my scripture tells us that I am God.

Need more proof? Too bad, that's what faith is, and if you do not believe in me I shall damn you to hell, a place that I have created for those who I do not like. If you even question me, I'll kick your ass! because I'm a loving god!

Still don't believe me? That's ok, I have a plan for you all, you are living it every day, you just have to OPEN YOUR EYES and look for it. For I do not interviene, that is unless it's a good thing in your life, in that case than yeah, that was me.

Anything that's bad? That's the work of some guy I created a while back who hates me, just blame anything bad on that guy! Why do I allow someone who tempts people to do terrible things to exist?? I'm TESTING YOU OF COURSE!!!

Yeah, to see if you're a "good person"! Even if you think you're doing right, I still might think..eeeh.. you're gay so, go to hell!. And even though you cannot discern what's right and what's wrong in my eyes I will still judge you for it! Harshly too!
Last edited by FREEaquaticdancelesson on Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Humans AREN'T monkeys, they're apes.

As an atheist, my view is that all religions are equally as true as the last.
Hehehe :)

YOU HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED SINCE BIRTH
THINKof how many references to "god" you say in your daily life,
"God!", "Damn it!", "Hell!", "Oh lord!", "Bless you", "holy shit!", "Godspeed" etc.
THINK of all the war propaganda you endure every day
NEWS, VIDEO GAMES, MOVIES, MUSIC, COMMERCIALS.
THINK of how avid consumerism is a part of your life.
Brand loyalty, Commercialism, Drug company monopolies, Class dictated by wealth, Bailouts.
CAPITALISM IS NOT THE SAME AS CONSUMERISM.


Relax....

User avatar
CanuckHeaven
Diplomat
 
Posts: 578
Founded: Feb 12, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby CanuckHeaven » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:24 pm

Zeth Rekia wrote:
Rokartian States wrote:


Cause he's not a god. If he was a god he would have instant access to means of recording events in video and audio. Add to this, the disc, or whatever he used, would be backwards compatible with any future human technology. Also, the disc would never break as it would be invincible.
Seeing this disc and it's contents would count as irrefutable proof of gods existence.

But, the idea of god was constructed and put to paper by humans. At the time they could not imagine a system like that mentioned above.

Therefore no deity figure was involved. God is an idea. An idea created by man writing fictional stories based around ancient history that at the time was current events.

Conclusion. god does not exist outside of his little novel.

You did not prove your conclusion.

User avatar
Darenjo
Minister
 
Posts: 2178
Founded: Mar 31, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Darenjo » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:23 pm

Of course God is real. I'm a true liberal, but of course God is real.
Dr. Park Si-Jung, Ambassador to the World Assembly for The People's Democracy of Darenjo

Proud Member of Eastern Islands of Dharma!

User avatar
Nightkill the Emperor
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 88776
Founded: Dec 28, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:24 pm

Darenjo wrote:Of course God is real. I'm a true liberal, but of course God is real.

Reasoning?
Hi! I'm Khan, your local misanthropic Indian.
I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith.
P2TM RP Discussion Thread
If you want a good rp, read this shit.
Tiami is cool.
Nat: Night's always in some bizarre state somewhere between "intoxicated enough to kill a hair metal lead singer" and "annoying Mormon missionary sober".

Swith: It's because you're so awesome. God himself refreshes the screen before he types just to see if Nightkill has written anything while he was off somewhere else.

Monfrox wrote:
The balkens wrote:
# went there....

It's Nightkill. He's been there so long he rents out rooms to other people at a flat rate, but demands cash up front.

User avatar
Luciratus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1727
Founded: Apr 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Luciratus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:49 pm

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:
Darenjo wrote:Of course God is real. I'm a true liberal, but of course God is real.

Reasoning?

The majority of religious people do not utilize reason to prove the existence of a deity, as reason is not particularly adapt at such a thing. Things can be known in other ways than merely reason- even if it is still the most common.
Stop the killing! Free Libya!
Please, help Japan and Oceania in any manner possible. Pray or hope for their safety and health.
I am a Grammar Nazi. As such, I prefer posts that are comprehensible.
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Mosasauria wrote:War is a necessary evil. True peace is impossible.
As long as we tell ourselves the first sentence, the second one will always be true.

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Cameroi wrote:And I still say, 9 out of 10 fetuses would rather be aborted then be born unwanted.

Did you poll those fetuses on their opinion?

Ezekiel Bardoff (dictator)
Yavid Biram (chairman)
Yashua Mithridates (two terms)
Alistaire Hawthorne (current)

Factbook

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: American Legionaries, Brockton-by-the-Sea, Dreghland, Eire Agus Albion, Eragon Island, Google [Bot], Gravlen, Grinning Dragon, Hirota, Neo-American States, Rary, The Matthew Islands, Uiiop, Walo

Advertisement

Remove ads