Is god real?

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Well you can stop. I do. Neither side can logically be proven or disproven. Any attempt to do so is luaghable, and even somewhat childish.

neither side can prove or disprove the existence of the external world.

Correct.

[Free Soviets]

Except the atheist "side" is not actually a side. We don't believe there is no god; we simply don't believe.

speak for yourself. i firmly believe there is no god, and i have epistemically reasonable justification/warrant for that belief.

[Free Soviets]

neither side can prove or disprove the existence of the external world.

Correct.

and this doesn't cause you to rethink your standards of evidence?

[Aggicificicerous]

Except the atheist "side" is not actually a side. We don't believe there is no god; we simply don't believe.

speak for yourself. i firmly believe there is no god, and i have epistemically reasonable justification/warrant for that belief.

Very well. For atheists such as myself.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Well you can stop. I do. Neither side can logically be proven or disproven. Any attempt to do so is luaghable, and even somewhat childish.

Except the atheist "side" is not actually a side. We don't believe there is no god; we simply don't believe. We don't have to prove anything.

Now you're just arguing semantics. You either believe in a god(s) (theist), believe there is no god(s) (atheist), or you don't know (agnostic). If you identify as an atheist, the you BELIEVE there is no God. Unless you're a nihilist, which you could claim simply don't believe.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Correct.

and this doesn't cause you to rethink your standards of evidence?

Evidence for what?

[Aggicificicerous]

Except the atheist "side" is not actually a side. We don't believe there is no god; we simply don't believe. We don't have to prove anything.

Now you're just arguing semantics. You either believe in a god(s) (theist), believe there is no god(s) (atheist), or you don't know (agnostic). If you identify as an atheist, the you BELIEVE there is no God. Unless you're a nihilist, which you could claim simply don't believe.

We've been over this. Atheism does not imply belief. Besides that, one can be an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist. And nihilism is not so simple as you make it out to be.

[Free Soviets]

and this doesn't cause you to rethink your standards of evidence?

Evidence for what?

belief formation and justification. if you don't know that you have a head, you've got bigger problems than the existence of god.

[Braedorn]

That's kind of a lame argument. I have mulled this over in my head, and the only characteristic that I can figure that MUST be true of God is that He is the Creator. You didn't create the universe, or I hope not. If anyone else can help me with this definition it would be much appreciated, because mine is not sufficient to actually hold a debate with.

Why do you assume the universe was created?

I've skimmed the thread but, the usual "omniscience vs omnipotence" and "omniscience vs free will" arguments have come out and as usual, the theist (possibly without realizing it) have redefined "omniscience" to being less than "omni."

E.G. the chess analogy (in very informal logic format):
1. An omniscient god (OG) knows all the possible outcomes in the game.
2. An OG also knows which single path of outcomes will actually happen.
3. Omnipotence and free will would both allow other possibilities.
4. Other possibilities would contradict 2. i.e. contradict OG's omniscience.
Thus omniscience contradicts omnipotence and free will. (The later for the OG as well as any other beings, divine or not.)

The usual theist argument is to ignore 2. or claim that is not necessary for omniscience (i.e. redefine it to mean knowing less than everything.)

BTW, for those who wish to slag this argument as being "atheist misinterpretation" if came from my very theist philosophy prof (an ordained Anglican minister.)

[Arilando]

No, at least not the god of the bible.

[The Alma Mater]

Except the atheist "side" is not actually a side. We don't believe there is no god; we simply don't believe. We don't have to prove anything.

Now you're just arguing semantics. You either believe in a god(s) (theist), believe there is no god(s) (atheist), or you don't know (agnostic). If you identify as an atheist, the you BELIEVE there is no God. Unless you're a nihilist, which you could claim simply don't believe.

As has been mentioned several thousands of times in the history of this forum (literally):

(a)theism is a position on belief.
(a)gnosticism is a position on knowledge.

All on the same page again ? Hurrah.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Now you're just arguing semantics. You either believe in a god(s) (theist), believe there is no god(s) (atheist), or you don't know (agnostic). If you identify as an atheist, the you BELIEVE there is no God. Unless you're a nihilist, which you could claim simply don't believe.

We've been over this. Atheism does not imply belief. Besides that, one can be an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist. And nihilism is not so simple as you make it out to be.

What is the difference btween an agnostic atheist/theist and a regular agnostic? And you're right, nihilism is more complex than that. But I'm not trying to get into a discussion about the principles of nihilism, as it's not entirely relevant. My statement was more of an afterthought.

[The Alma Mater]

We've been over this. Atheism does not imply belief. Besides that, one can be an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist. And nihilism is not so simple as you make it out to be.

What is the difference btween an agnostic atheist/theist and a regular agnostic?

There is no such thing as a "regular agnostic".

[The Murtunian Tribes]

That's kind of a lame argument. I have mulled this over in my head, and the only characteristic that I can figure that MUST be true of God is that He is the Creator. You didn't create the universe, or I hope not. If anyone else can help me with this definition it would be much appreciated, because mine is not sufficient to actually hold a debate with.

Why do you assume the universe was created?

Physics has all but proven that the universe as we know it has not existed forever, in fact, I believe its 13.6 billion years old. Therefore something caused it's existence.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

What is the difference btween an agnostic atheist/theist and a regular agnostic?

There is no such thing as a "regular agnostic".

Then what is the difference between a theist agnostic and atheist agnostic?

[The Alma Mater]

There is no such thing as a "regular agnostic".

Then what is the difference between a theist agnostic and atheist agnostic?

A theistic agnost believes a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists.
A atheistic agnost lacks belief a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists or not exists.

[Free Soviets]

Then what is the difference between a theist agnostic and atheist agnostic?

while they both (wrongly) believe that one cannot know whether gods exist or not, they hold opposite beliefs on the question of actual existence.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Evidence for what?

belief formation and justification. if you don't know that you have a head, you've got bigger problems than the existence of god.

I have never, anywhere in this fofum, in NS itself, or on any offsite forum have ever stated that I necessarily may or may not possibly believe in God.

[Braedorn]

No. It doesn't require a leap of faith to know what square circles do not exist. In the same way you can KNOW that certain defined Gods do not exist if their defined characteristics contradict themselves.

But not for all defined gods. Not nearly all.

I'm not even beginning on gods not yet defined...

There are a few defined gods I know exist, they are-man made (usually carved from rock or wood) objects which can be seen to exist. Their powers however, have no evidence of existence beyond those of the many other defined gods with no physical existence (e.g. the norse or abrahamic gods.) So, while I know there are some gods that exist (sun, stars, wind, little carved idols) there are no defined supernatural I believe in.

Those gods not yet defined are impossible to believe in as without definition, there is nothing to be believed in.

There is no leap of faith required in atheism, in fact it is the result of making no leaps of faith. (Not that it is impossible to arrive at atheism with a leap of faith but, unlike theism, it is not required.)

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Then what is the difference between a theist agnostic and atheist agnostic?

A theistic agnost believes a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists.
A atheistic agnost lacks belief a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists or not exists.

An so it is impossible to be undecided entirely?

[The Alma Mater]

A theistic agnost believes a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists.
A atheistic agnost lacks belief a god exists, but does not claim to know he exists or not exists.

An so it is impossible to be undecided entirely?

If talking about belief, that is called "lacking belief" and falls under atheism. That some atheists are more strong in their claim does not mean the milder form does not exist.

If talking about knowledge, that is agnosticism.

So an agnostic atheist

[Free Soviets]

An so it is impossible to be undecided entirely?

not as such. its just that there is no ready term for someone who simply believes that there is a precisely equal bayesian probability of existence and non-existence. it doesn't come up much.

[The Alma Mater]

An so it is impossible to be undecided entirely?

not as such. its just that there is no ready term for someone who simply believes that there is a precisely equal bayesian probability of existence and non-existence. it doesn't come up much.

There are however people who do not believe in deity X because they never even heard of him. Think of remote tribes, or even infants.
Those are generally called "implicit atheists" - because they lack belief, but not due to any decision making process.

[Braedorn]

So, to be atheist you basically have to take a leap of faith? (and I already finished the probability argument)

nope. to be an epistemically justified atheist you merely have to apply the same standards of justification that you do for literally everything else to god-claims.

Well, there are other ways but, this one (i.e. skepticism) is applied by almost everyone in their daily lives. When applied to religion it results in atheism or the admission that belief is irrational (i.e. not supported by logical reasoning and incontrovertible evidence.)

[Khytenna]

There is no way we can disprove or prove that there is some sort of deity exists or doesnt exist, there is just no way.

What i find interesting about this thread, is that we are asking is there a 'god', now im taking that the OP ahs been writen by someone from america or a chirstian country, so there for monothesism is them main thought and idea. what if we where all born a country where the main culture was surounded around the existance of many gods then this would be a diffrent thread, as we are projecting what country's culture of religion to this thread.

Now there was one post on here that there is a universal concept of god (or gods) and that to me is an interesting reason for the existance of a god/gods. i would like to answer in that i feel is away to answer this.

When we first started to walk around the earth in our hunter gather stage, we started to build things (like huts and tools and that) to help with our lives, as we slowly developed over time, we start to think about ourselves and where we come from and how everything got here. The simple way we though of this, is buy saying "well as we create things, we also must of been created and as we are the only creatures that can create things, where ever created everything must look like us" and thus we create the idea of god.

that would be one way of looking at it.

as for the idea of a god/ afterlife, this create problems for everyone. people start to worry and become scared about whats happens when they die, are they living there lives in a god way, why am i here .etc

so, for me, i jsut dont think about it. why should i worry myself sick about a god or an afterlife when they may or may not exist, why should i be scared? and you no what? by not thinking about it i feel so much happyer then the average religous person or athist i know.