Is a fetus a person

[Risottia]

Ok a person in a coma is capable of thought

It really depends on the type of coma.

[DaWoad]

Ok a person in a coma is capable of thought

It really depends on the type of coma.

if yourin a coma your rights are given to another (your medical proxy) right? If your brain dead (no thought) then your dead and thus have no rights. Same thing with a feotus. If it is incapable of thought its not yet a person and thus had no rights. if it has brain function it then has rights which are held, in proxy by its mother.

[No Names Left Damn It]

A foetus is not a person, no.

[Laconis]

I define death as the irreversable cessation of all circulatory, respiratory, and nervous functions.

I define life as having continuing activity of either the circulatory, respiratory, or nervous systems.

I believe that if a fetus has a fully functioning nervous system it is most certainly alive. If it has its own circulatory system, by which the fetus is capable of pumping blood through out it's body without assistance from the mother. A respiratory system, however, is the only catchy part, since a child doesn't start to breath on its own until it is expose to oxygen.

The real question is when does a fetus become a person? Is it while still inside the womb, or at the moment it is fully birthed and its ambilical cord severed?

Again, I believe that once the fetus is capable of at least being able to register pain, or having a functioning circulatory system, it is alive (this is roughly 28 weeks into the process for the fetus to actually feel pain, yet only 2-3 weeks when the fetus has an actual heartbeat), yet still heavily dependent upon it's mother.

I don't have many qualms about abortion, however they should be performed sooner rather than later. Once a fetus begins to take on the the physical resemblence of a person, I tend to find it difficult to not view them as a human. Abortions before the fetus begins to pump blood through a closed circulatory system I have no issues with, it's once you get closer to the point of where the fetus begins to feel pain/looks more human that I have real issues.

Agreed, barring a sever medical issues that would kill both mother and child though I do not think many abortions occur after that 28 week span (i think the cut off is . . .. 24? ish?)

I agree with you one-hundred percent. I also believe that in cases of rape, abortion is acceptable. But don't you think 24 weeks is a bit too far into the process to call it quits? I mean yes the woman has a say in what happens with her body, but when the fetus is well on its way with a complete circulatory structure, eyes, mouth, toes, ears, lungs, fingernails, hair... the only thing it's doing at this point in life is simply strengthening the systems it already has and gaining weight.

Do I agree with abortion? Yes, but to a point. I think serious thought needs to go into this sort of thing, which i'm sure does, but there are still cases where that isn't so.

[Inarui]

It is not a person. The fetus lacks all the characteristics that make it a person.

[Galloism]

It is not a person. The fetus lacks all the characteristics that make it a person.

Which characteristics would those be?

[Poliwanacraca]

It has human DNA, and it's an alive distinct individual(unlike, say, a corpse or a donated kidney), so it seems to be enough of a person to me to justify it be given a right to life over a woman's right to choose what she does with her body.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but that seems the most logical assumption. I wouldn't have liked to never exist outside the womb, sounds kind of mean to deny that to even a potential human.

Let me ask you something :

If somebody needed one of your kidneys to survive, should you be forced to donate it?
If not, how can you demand women should be forced to offer their bodies against their wills just so the foetus can survive?

Before my response to this question, can we hypothesize that in general that pregnancy doesn't remove 50% of a body's liquid waste disposal system for the rest of the woman's life?

And now for the section that some people will find incredibly offensive:

1a. Most landlords, when they choose to rent out a house or apartment, realize that there's a possibility that they may want to evict a tenant.

1b. Except in cases of rape, most pregnant women chose to engage in an activity that has the potential to result in pregnancy.

2a. Because of government intervention, a landlord can be forced by the government to delay (sometimes for long periods of time) the eviction of a bad tenant. Hopefully, no life or potential life is destroyed.

2b. Therefore, is it such a far step from a landlord to a pregnant woman, in that a woman should be inconvenienced to carry a new life when she (usually) chose to engage in behavior that can result in pregnancy?

Did you seriously, seriously just ask if it was such a far step between a woman and a HOUSE?

Sometimes NSG makes my brain hurt.

[Inarui]

It is not a person. The fetus lacks all the characteristics that make it a person.

Which characteristics would those be?

It can't think for it's own and, since it still needs the mother's body to develop, it's not technically a person.

[No Names Left Damn It]

Which characteristics would those be?

Self-awareness, consciousness etc.

[Poliwanacraca]

As for me, I'd say it's not a "person" until it is, at the very least, capable of self-awareness. A fetus two weeks from birth is probably a person. A blastocyst is absolutely not a person.

[No Names Left Damn It]

Did you seriously, seriously just ask if it was such a far step between a woman and a HOUSE?

Sometimes NSG makes my brain hurt.

Just ignore it, and wait for September to come.

[Galloism]

It is not a person. The fetus lacks all the characteristics that make it a person.

Which characteristics would those be?

It can't think for it's own and, since it still needs the mother's body to develop, it's not technically a person.

Well that depends on the definition of "think for it's own", which is going to be hard to quantify in such a way that it does apply to a fetus but not to a newborn.

And I don't see what needing assistance in developing has to do with personhood or lack thereof. Perhaps you can expound?

[GetBert]

The term foetus covers quite a long period of time. Not until about the time they are a viable individual organism that can survive on its own outside the uterus would I consider them a person.

[Galloism]

Which characteristics would those be?

Self-awareness, consciousness etc.

So people in certain types of comas aren't persons, then?

[Inarui]

Well that depends on the definition of "think for it's own", which is going to be hard to quantify in such a way that it does apply to a fetus but not to a newborn.

And I don't see what needing assistance in developing has to do with personhood or lack thereof. Perhaps you can expound?

Can the fetus, in its early stages, live on its own, outside the mother's body? Can the fetus feel and think, does it knows what it is? No. Does it understands? Does it has a sense of self? No.

[No Names Left Damn It]

As for me, I'd say it's not a "person" until it is, at the very least, capable of self-awareness. A fetus two weeks from birth is probably a person. A blastocyst is absolutely not a person.

Are blastocysts and zygotes technically foetuses then or what, because I always thought they were different?

[No Names Left Damn It]

So people in certain types of comas aren't persons, then?

They possess fully developed internal organs etc.

[Inarui]

Which characteristics would those be?

Self-awareness, consciousness etc.

So people in certain types of comas aren't persons, then?

They are people in the sense that they acquired, at one point self-awareness and conciousness, what makes us human, people. That they're in a coma doesn't mean that they ceased to be people, the conditions was cause by outside factors.

[Laconis]

Here's a question that popped into my mind just now.

When do you think you were first "Alive"? As in a living creature distinguishable from your mother? I'd say 11-12 weeks in. That's just me. What say you all?

[Inarui]

Here's a question that popped into my mind just now.

When do you think you were first "Alive"? As in a living creature distinguishable from your mother? I'd say 11-12 weeks in. That's just me. What say you all?

I don't think you can remember that. When do we truly gain sense of ourselves, I think when we realize it. At 3 0r 4, hazily, I knew I was a separate person, from my mother.

[Galloism]

Well that depends on the definition of "think for it's own", which is going to be hard to quantify in such a way that it does apply to a fetus but not to a newborn.

And I don't see what needing assistance in developing has to do with personhood or lack thereof. Perhaps you can expound?

Can the fetus, in its early stages, live on its own, outside the mother's body?

Not yet, but medicine keeps advancing. Are we going to draw the line at personhood based on what the medical field can accomplish? That would be quite a ridiculous thing to do, given that we have seen in our lifetimes how the age of viability has marched backwards so far.

It's not a far stretch that in 100 years time we'll see the ability to grow a fertilized egg all the way to childhood in a lab. We can already fertilize an egg in a lab and then implant it. If that were to happen, would you consider each unfertilized egg and sperm cell a person? That would be problematic.

Can the fetus feel and think, does it knows what it is? No.

Know what it is? Probably not - but neither does a newborn, really. I believe someone in here mentioned the mirror test at approximately 18 months.

Does it understands? Does it has a sense of self? No.

Neither does a newborn, yet we consider them "persons".

[Galloism]

So people in certain types of comas aren't persons, then?

They possess fully developed internal organs etc.

So babies born with malformed organs or organs that failed to develop fully are not persons?

I can go on like this all day. The simple fact is there's no really good definition of what constitutes a person or not a person. It's very subjective.

[Meldaria]

I don't think a fetus is life, I think it's life in the making. Sometimes things that are being made aren't needed or wanted so they seas to make them. On the issue of abortion, I'm kind of outraged that if you get a woman pregnant they can hold you responsible for it and make you look bad when it was a 2 person choice. Men should be able to say, look sign this piece of paper saying I am not responsible for this baby in any way or get an abortion. You can't hold onto a product of two people and hold them by the throat because of it. That is wrong.

[Inarui]

Not yet, but medicine keeps advancing. Are we going to draw the line at personhood based on what the medical field can accomplish? That would be quite a ridiculous thing to do, given that we have seen in our lifetimes how the age of viability has marched backwards so far.

It's not a far stretch that in 100 years time we'll see the ability to grow a fertilized egg all the way to childhood in a lab. We can already fertilize an egg in a lab and then implant it. If that were to happen, would you consider each unfertilized egg and sperm cell a person? That would be problematic.

But that hasb't happened yet. You yourself said it, we cannot start mussing about future medical technology.

Know what it is? Probably not - but neither does a newborn, really. I believe someone in here mentioned the mirror test at approximately 18 months.

When is it that we really become aware of the self?

Neither does a newborn, yet we consider them "persons".

Because they can live outside the mothe's body.

[The Tofu Islands]

On the issue of abortion, I'm kind of outraged that if you get a woman pregnant they can hold you responsible for it and make you look bad when it was a 2 person choice. Men should be able to say, look sign this piece of paper saying I am not responsible for this baby in any way or get an abortion. You can't hold onto a product of two people and hold them by the throat because of it. That is wrong.

This should be over in the father's choice thread, really. This thread isn't about abortion.