Mormon Missionaries.

[Treznor]

"How do you feel about the founder of your religion being lynched for fraud?"

"How do you feel about your religions institutionalized bigotry, including their historical stance against other races joining?"

"How do you feel about the Mountain Meadows Massacre?"

In another thread, Grave_n_idle talked about a "smear campaign". I guess the above would meet the requirements of a smear campaign?

Also, it appears that some atheists here at NSG love trotting out the bigotry label whenever it suits their purpose and yet they fail to recognize their own bigotry.

As far as the OP is concerned, he took advantage of anothers time and labour for personal gain, then expressed a willingness to take further advantage of others for his own amusement, and then asks other posters to "provide information" that could help augment his amusement. Ultimately it leads to posts such as yours......how sad is that?

I'm a bigot because I point out who founded the LDS religion (a historically confirmed con artist), the instititional bigotry of most of its history and a massacre that took place that it never wants to talk about?

Okay, I'm a bigot. I never claimed I wasn't willing to point out the flaws in a belief system or challenge the basic assumptions underlying them. If that makes me a bigot, then I accept that label. I am a bigot when it comes to religion.

I won't apologize for answering the OP's question. You may not like what information I chose to bring to the table, but it doesn't invalidate the veracity of that information. I note that you don't object to the validity of my statements, only my intent for making them. Remember, boys and girls: it's only libel when it isn't true.

[CanuckHeaven]

"How do you feel about the founder of your religion being lynched for fraud?"

"How do you feel about your religions institutionalized bigotry, including their historical stance against other races joining?"

"How do you feel about the Mountain Meadows Massacre?"

In another thread, Grave_n_idle talked about a "smear campaign". I guess the above would meet the requirements of a smear campaign?

Also, it appears that some atheists here at NSG love trotting out the bigotry label whenever it suits their purpose and yet they fail to recognize their own bigotry.

As far as the OP is concerned, he took advantage of anothers time and labour for personal gain, then expressed a willingness to take further advantage of others for his own amusement, and then asks other posters to "provide information" that could help augment his amusement. Ultimately it leads to posts such as yours......how sad is that?

Holy shit, we agree on something.

I'm scared.

It is nice to find agreement with others whenever possible, even if it doesn't happen often. So there is no need to be afraid, I'm sure that we will continue to find things to disagree about.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Holy Mother of a post Nathi!

Agreed -- but isn't it great that someone took the time to actually back up their assertions rather than say "I'm not wrong, look it up"?

Thanks, DLN, you sexy, information-providing beast, you.

That's why I want her. I do.

Thanks, Nana, Intangelon. Naughty. But nice.

For Trez - you know I love you, boyo. And you know I love a good debate. But I'm gonna pass on your bit there because it'll involve way too much typing after all the typing I did last night between here, and the rp and the other posts, and the elbow is killing me.

I will sum up with this: Yeah, he was killed by a lynch mob. If y'all want to support that sort of mentality as being 'right' and 'just', I suppose that's your choice. The 'why' he was killed depends greatly on your pov of the situation. We maintain it was unjustly done on trumped-up bs. How do you feel about Gov Bogg's 'Extermination Order', while we're asking questions. In this land that was based supposedly on 'religious freedoms' we certainly have seen our fair share of persecution on account of chosen religions. (No, not just the Mormons. US history is rife with Bad Things^TM that way.)

There is no currently-existing bigotry. What may have been true in the past hasn't been true for a good thirty years or so. There's no limit on who can be a member, nor what positions they can hold within the church. So to claim it is a current or ongoing problem is either uneducated or blatantly false. Here's some names to back that up - note 'first' not 'only':

Adney Y. Komatsu – First Asian General Authority – April 1975
George P. Lee – First Native American General Authority – October 1975
Yoshihiko Kikuchi – First Japanese General Authority – October 1977
Ángel Abrea – First resident of Latin America General Authority – March 1981
Helvécio Martins – First General Authority of Black African descent – April 1990
Han In Sang – First Korean General Authority – July 1991
Augusto A. Lim – First Filipino General Authority – July 1992
Tai Kwok Yuen – First Chinese General Authority – July 1992

And the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You know, I'm still not clear on that whole entire mess. I'm really not. And not being entirely clear on it and the events surrounding it, I'm not very qualified to give an informed opinion. And I realize that no matter how many other incidents I could point to of Mormons being murdered and hunted down and persecuted does not excuse any such actions on their parts if they truly exist. But I do find it interesting that one questionable point gets continually brought up as if a flag to be waved for the purpose of condemning Mormons, while numerous points in the favor of Mormons tend to get swept under the rug as if either unimportant, or irrelevant.

[Greed and Death]

In another thread, Grave_n_idle talked about a "smear campaign". I guess the above would meet the requirements of a smear campaign?

Also, it appears that some atheists here at NSG love trotting out the bigotry label whenever it suits their purpose and yet they fail to recognize their own bigotry.

As far as the OP is concerned, he took advantage of anothers time and labour for personal gain, then expressed a willingness to take further advantage of others for his own amusement, and then asks other posters to "provide information" that could help augment his amusement. Ultimately it leads to posts such as yours......how sad is that?

Holy shit, we agree on something.

I'm scared.

It is nice to find agreement with others whenever possible, even if it doesn't happen often. So there is no need to be afraid, I'm sure that we will continue to find things to disagree about.

I still don't understand what I did wrong. They were having a slow day, because it is summer and the college kids are not in town.
They offered to help so I told them things to do. By amusing I don't mean trolling.

[Smunkeeville]

I still don't understand what I did wrong. They were having a slow day, because it is summer and the college kids are not in town.
They offered to help so I told them things to do. By amusing I don't mean trolling.

I think wasting their time is kinda shitty thing to do, especially because your reasoning was that you wanted to "make them have a crisi of faith". It's a much more mature thing to just leave them alone, live and let live. I don't believe the things Mormons do, and I could get into a really long debate about their theology, but at the end of the day there's not really a point.

[Greed and Death]

I still don't understand what I did wrong. They were having a slow day, because it is summer and the college kids are not in town.
They offered to help so I told them things to do. By amusing I don't mean trolling.

I think wasting their time is kinda shitty thing to do, especially because your reasoning was that you wanted to "make them have a crisi of faith". It's a much more mature thing to just leave them alone, live and let live. I don't believe the things Mormons do, and I could get into a really long debate about their theology, but at the end of the day there's not really a point.

They were the ones who asked to help, they were the ones who asked to come over.
They asked for no conditions, and I made no promises.

[Treznor]

For Trez - you know I love you, boyo. And you know I love a good debate. But I'm gonna pass on your bit there because it'll involve way too much typing after all the typing I did last night between here, and the rp and the other posts, and the elbow is killing me.

I know. I promise to be kind. Mostly.

I will sum up with this: Yeah, he was killed by a lynch mob. If y'all want to support that sort of mentality as being 'right' and 'just', I suppose that's your choice. The 'why' he was killed depends greatly on your pov of the situation. We maintain it was unjustly done on trumped-up bs. How do you feel about Gov Bogg's 'Extermination Order', while we're asking questions. In this land that was based supposedly on 'religious freedoms' we certainly have seen our fair share of persecution on account of chosen religions. (No, not just the Mormons. US history is rife with Bad Things^TM that way.)

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-Day Saints, was convicted of fraud. In particular, he claimed to be able to find certain objects by looking into a stone. I find that particularly interesting considering other claims he made involving stones and miraculous abilities.

There is no currently-existing bigotry. What may have been true in the past hasn't been true for a good thirty years or so. There's no limit on who can be a member, nor what positions they can hold within the church. So to claim it is a current or ongoing problem is either uneducated or blatantly false. Here's some names to back that up - note 'first' not 'only':

Adney Y. Komatsu – First Asian General Authority – April 1975
George P. Lee – First Native American General Authority – October 1975
Yoshihiko Kikuchi – First Japanese General Authority – October 1977
Ángel Abrea – First resident of Latin America General Authority – March 1981
Helvécio Martins – First General Authority of Black African descent – April 1990
Han In Sang – First Korean General Authority – July 1991
Augusto A. Lim – First Filipino General Authority – July 1992
Tai Kwok Yuen – First Chinese General Authority – July 1992

Agreed. The Latter-Day Saints no longer uphold institutional bigotry. So the question must be asked, why would such a divinely-inspired ministry have to go back through so much of its scripture and policies to correct so many mistakes? Joseph Smith claimed that as he translated the holy stones, the word that appeared to him wouldn't go away until it was transcribed properly. Then, a hundred years later, Brigham Young had to go back and fix a number of grammatical and spelling mistakes.

I'm always suspicious of organizations that claim to be representatives of Divine Truth and absolute morality, then have to go back and fix things later.

And the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You know, I'm still not clear on that whole entire mess. I'm really not. And not being entirely clear on it and the events surrounding it, I'm not very qualified to give an informed opinion. And I realize that no matter how many other incidents I could point to of Mormons being murdered and hunted down and persecuted does not excuse any such actions on their parts if they truly exist. But I do find it interesting that one questionable point gets continually brought up as if a flag to be waved for the purpose of condemning Mormons, while numerous points in the favor of Mormons tend to get swept under the rug as if either unimportant, or irrelevant.

Sure, Mormons have been persecuted. I would never dream of claiming otherwise. But again, that whole "moral foundation" and "divine inspiration" concept bothers me, kinda like why the Catholic Church had to provoke war and suffering in order to get things done instead of simply allowing their superior religious doctrine to hold sway. But there's quite a bit of good information on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I invite you to research it and form your own conclusions.

[Milks Empire]

Or for that matter people who would be praying to vastly different beings. If I asked Eris her advice about this she'd laugh her ass off.

Can I sig that?

[Redwulf]

There is no currently-existing bigotry. What may have been true in the past hasn't been true for a good thirty years or so. There's no limit on who can be a member, nor what positions they can hold within the church. So to claim it is a current or ongoing problem is either uneducated or blatantly false.

So both gays and women can hold even the highest position in the church? And the church has recently stopped working against gay rights?

[Redwulf]

I still don't understand what I did wrong. They were having a slow day, because it is summer and the college kids are not in town.
They offered to help so I told them things to do. By amusing I don't mean trolling.

I think wasting their time is kinda shitty thing to do, especially because your reasoning was that you wanted to "make them have a crisi of faith". It's a much more mature thing to just leave them alone, live and let live. I don't believe the things Mormons do, and I could get into a really long debate about their theology, but at the end of the day there's not really a point.

Lets look at this differently Smunk. You agree that their religion demands that they proselytize and they should be allowed to do so, yes?

Well mine says that I should spread chaos and confusion and make people question themselves. If you won't deny them their "right" to knock on my door and proselytize (and by the way, what is proselytizing if not attempting to make someone have a crisis of faith in such a manner that they then convert to your faith) then why would you deny me MY right to respond by confusing them and making them question their faith?

[Redwulf]

Or for that matter people who would be praying to vastly different beings. If I asked Eris her advice about this she'd laugh her ass off.

Can I sig that?

Anything I write may be sigged by anyone who wishes. Just make sure you're quoting me and not me quoting someone else.

[Smunkeeville]

I still don't understand what I did wrong. They were having a slow day, because it is summer and the college kids are not in town.
They offered to help so I told them things to do. By amusing I don't mean trolling.

I think wasting their time is kinda shitty thing to do, especially because your reasoning was that you wanted to "make them have a crisi of faith". It's a much more mature thing to just leave them alone, live and let live. I don't believe the things Mormons do, and I could get into a really long debate about their theology, but at the end of the day there's not really a point.

Lets look at this differently Smunk. You agree that their religion demands that they proselytize and they should be allowed to do so, yes?

Well mine says that I should spread chaos and confusion and make people question themselves. If you won't deny them their "right" to knock on my door and proselytize (and by the way, what is proselytizing if not attempting to make someone have a crisis of faith in such a manner that they then convert to your faith) then why would you deny me MY right to respond by confusing them and making them question their faith?

Hey, dude, seriously, nobody is denying your right to do anything. <<way too many commas btw.

Lots of people have lots of right to do shit that I don't agree with. I don't like door to door anything, much less door to door religion, but you gotta admit it's kinda mean to pretend to be interested only to troll them for no other reason than entertainment.

[Riveara]

Jehovah's witness go door to door a lot more then the Mormon missionaries. In my area, they only go to other Mormon's houses.

[Treznor]

Lots of people have lots of right to do shit that I don't agree with. I don't like door to door anything, much less door to door religion, but you gotta admit it's kinda mean to pretend to be interested only to troll them for no other reason than entertainment.

Probably. I'm mean that way. If they find satisfaction in trying to convince me to join their mystic society, then they have to deal with me finding satisfaction in challenging their claims. Freedom of speech is a bitch, that way.

[Riveara]

Lots of people have lots of right to do shit that I don't agree with. I don't like door to door anything, much less door to door religion, but you gotta admit it's kinda mean to pretend to be interested only to troll them for no other reason than entertainment.

Probably. I'm mean that way. If they find satisfaction in trying to convince me to join their mystic society, then they have to deal with me finding satisfaction in challenging their claims. Freedom of speech is a bitch, that way.

Honestly, Mormons are not as weird as people think. The reason people have major bias towards them is because they have seen some of the stuff on TV about them (like south park).

Their are actually 2 secs of Mormonism, one is the weird one where people think that god is from another planet, they wear the funny underwear, and have multiple wives. That sect broke off of the normal LDS church that is more widely practiced and happens not to believe the half wits that have 20 wives.

[Smunkeeville]

Lots of people have lots of right to do shit that I don't agree with. I don't like door to door anything, much less door to door religion, but you gotta admit it's kinda mean to pretend to be interested only to troll them for no other reason than entertainment.

Probably. I'm mean that way. If they find satisfaction in trying to convince me to join their mystic society, then they have to deal with me finding satisfaction in challenging their claims. Freedom of speech is a bitch, that way.

Well, yeah, that was my point. Liking freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to like everything everyone says. I even get to bitch about the things people say, because I have freedom of speech too.

Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom from criticism.

[Treznor]

Lots of people have lots of right to do shit that I don't agree with. I don't like door to door anything, much less door to door religion, but you gotta admit it's kinda mean to pretend to be interested only to troll them for no other reason than entertainment.

Probably. I'm mean that way. If they find satisfaction in trying to convince me to join their mystic society, then they have to deal with me finding satisfaction in challenging their claims. Freedom of speech is a bitch, that way.

Honestly, Mormons are not as weird as people think. The reason people have major bias towards them is because they have seen some of the stuff on TV about them (like south park).

Their are actually 2 secs of Mormonism, one is the weird one where people think that god is from another planet, they wear the funny underwear, and have multiple wives. That sect broke off of the normal LDS church that is more widely practiced and happens not to believe the half wits that have 20 wives.

I don't care if they're Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Evangelicals or any other religion. If their purpose in knocking on my door is to bring me their Good News, then their Good News had better have some independent verification beyond "our holy book sez so." Otherwise, their freedom of speech will earn them my freedom of speech.

[Riveara]

I don't care if they're Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Evangelicals or any other religion. If their purpose in knocking on my door is to bring me their Good News, then their Good News had better have some independent verification beyond "our holy book sez so." Otherwise, their freedom of speech will earn them my freedom of speech.

I actually respect that you will say something to them. Most people just passively let them leave on their own accord, then they talk about them behind their back and mock them over the internet so they wont have any fear of reprisal (apart from name calling).

[Treznor]

I don't care if they're Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Evangelicals or any other religion. If their purpose in knocking on my door is to bring me their Good News, then their Good News had better have some independent verification beyond "our holy book sez so." Otherwise, their freedom of speech will earn them my freedom of speech.

I actually respect that you will say something to them. Most people just passively let them leave on their own accord, then they talk about them behind their back and mock them over the internet so they wont have any fear of reprisal (apart from name calling).

That's just silly. Why not do both?

[Riveara]

I don't care if they're Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Evangelicals or any other religion. If their purpose in knocking on my door is to bring me their Good News, then their Good News had better have some independent verification beyond "our holy book sez so." Otherwise, their freedom of speech will earn them my freedom of speech.

I actually respect that you will say something to them. Most people just passively let them leave on their own accord, then they talk about them behind their back and mock them over the internet so they wont have any fear of reprisal (apart from name calling).

That's just silly. Why not do both?

Well I would expect that after you gave them a piece of your mind, you'll talk about them a bit more.

You know something funny, I am Mormon, and when someone bad talks my religion I don't care. What I do care is that they have no idea about it other then what people tell them (unless they listened to a missionary).

[Treznor]

I actually respect that you will say something to them. Most people just passively let them leave on their own accord, then they talk about them behind their back and mock them over the internet so they wont have any fear of reprisal (apart from name calling).

That's just silly. Why not do both?

Well I would expect that after you gave them a piece of your mind, you'll talk about them a bit more.

You know something funny, I am Mormon, and when someone bad talks my religion I don't care. What I do care is that they have no idea about it other then what people tell them (unless they listened to a missionary).

Kinda like when people talk about immoral atheists and their baby-eating habits?

[Riveara]

Kinda like when people talk about immoral atheists and their baby-eating habits?[/quote]

They do eat babies, lol. But yeah, pretty much that.

Here is a perfect case of what I am talking about. My little sister is like a punk kid (she has the look and everything) and she said "I hate communism." very randomly. So I asked, "Why?" She said "I don't know, I just hate it." And I said, "Do you even know what communism is?" and she said "No." So i tried to lecture her on learning about something before you pass a judgment, and she got mad and started to ignore me. She is an idiot.

[Verdigroth]

didn't the mormons begin as a "doomsday cult" back in the 1840's, predicting that was when the world would end? not that up on mormon history, but i thought i had heard that at one time.

Kinda did for their first prophet.

[Iron Chariots]

Granted. How many times have doctors said things LIKE "Wine the new heath food" only next week to say "Wine kills you".

As for me and my house, I will obey God. If HE says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

Okay. Stoned anyone lately?

I hav--
Oh, wait. I thought you were talking about something else, something rather more enjoyable.

OK. Please do not fall prey to false accusations about the LDS church. If you want to learn, ask, or go online, or go straight to the "horses mouth" and pray.

DLN is correct, I am probably doing more harm than good, so I will bow out of this conversation. If you have any more serious questions or concerns, PM me.

I love how religious folks ask the non religious to pray.

If a dedicated and adamant virgin wanted to know more about sex and sexuality, would you advise them to fuck someone?

If I think that prayer is illogical and a waste of time (I don't, necessarily, but that's an altogether different kettle of sturgeon), anyone telling me to "pray about" something is really wasting their time.

I actually would tell the virgin to fuck someone.

Presumably, you would volunteer to participate?

[Verdigroth]

And remember if you don't like how the Mormons work all you have to do is join up and elect different people. Cause Mormons are the most democratic religion out there.