Mormon Missionaries.

[Buffett and Colbert]

I have a Church of Latter Day Saints one measly block from my house, about a two minute walk (if you're weighed down with stuff) and do you know what they've done to annoy me?


Absolutely NOTHING. Wonderful neighbors.

Pfft. That's what they WANT you to think.

[Wilgrove]

I have a Church of Latter Day Saints one measly block from my house, about a two minute walk (if you're weighed down with stuff) and do you know what they've done to annoy me?


Absolutely NOTHING. Wonderful neighbors.

Any neighbors that leave you alone is a wonderful neighbor.

[Katganistan]

I have a Church of Latter Day Saints one measly block from my house, about a two minute walk (if you're weighed down with stuff) and do you know what they've done to annoy me?


Absolutely NOTHING. Wonderful neighbors.

Any neighbors that leave you alone is a wonderful neighbor.

PREcisely. See, I see it as professional courtesy. I won't try to convert you, please don't try to convert me. Lets me be friends with/able to get along with an enormous number of people of different faiths, creeds, et cetera.

[Laconis]

Well long story short I was fixing things outside the apartment complex I live at. These two missionaries happen to come by and strike up a conversation. Near the end of which they offer to help. I got them to do about half my work for the day.

However, I also agreed to let them come over to my place Friday in the evening to talk to me about their religion.
I have decided why not have some fun with this, Those more knowledgeable about the church of latter day saints, please provide me information to make the conversation amusing.

an example of a amusing conversation wolf be plato's Euthyphro.

It is now Saturday. Results? [drumroll="Laconis"]

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Well long story short I was fixing things outside the apartment complex I live at. These two missionaries happen to come by and strike up a conversation. Near the end of which they offer to help. I got them to do about half my work for the day.

However, I also agreed to let them come over to my place Friday in the evening to talk to me about their religion.
I have decided why not have some fun with this, Those more knowledgeable about the church of latter day saints, please provide me information to make the conversation amusing.

an example of a amusing conversation wolf be plato's Euthyphro.

It is now Saturday. Results? [drumroll="Laconis"]

Did you even see my Euthyphro post?

[Wilgrove]

I have a Church of Latter Day Saints one measly block from my house, about a two minute walk (if you're weighed down with stuff) and do you know what they've done to annoy me?


Absolutely NOTHING. Wonderful neighbors.

Any neighbors that leave you alone is a wonderful neighbor.

PREcisely. See, I see it as professional courtesy. I won't try to convert you, please don't try to convert me. Lets me be friends with/able to get along with an enormous number of people of different faiths, creeds, et cetera.

Yea, that's why I didn't buy a house next to a church. I do most of my rituals outside, so as a courtesy (also to keep them off my front step), I brought a house that wasn't near any church and has a good secluded back yard.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

And to answer the question of the OP

Euthyphro dilemma
"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

I am sure the missionaries would not balk too much at this question. In fact, there is a very simple answer. The answer is sure to raise debate, but it IS the answer.

The simple answer is : There are laws that God himself must follow. If he breaks those laws he ceases to become God. Our moral laws come from those laws. Therefore, neither are correct. They are moral because they just are.

Before you all start regurgitating the exact argument I know you are itching to use, please make sure you are not using flawed predicates.

Here's my answer t othe OP

[Montanaa]

I had some mormons change a car tire for me once. And this was on a relatively steep hill so it was a bit of trouble for them. Anyway, it was damn funny watching them do that. But nowadays I just sit back and turn the volume on TV up when they come by as my dogs bark their heads off.

[Greed and Death]

And to answer the question of the OP

Euthyphro dilemma
"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

I am sure the missionaries would not balk too much at this question. In fact, there is a very simple answer. The answer is sure to raise debate, but it IS the answer.

The simple answer is : There are laws that God himself must follow. If he breaks those laws he ceases to become God. Our moral laws come from those laws. Therefore, neither are correct. They are moral because they just are.

Before you all start regurgitating the exact argument I know you are itching to use, please make sure you are not using flawed predicates.

Here's my answer t othe OP

I wasn't looking for an answer to that particular question I was looking for a dialog on similar lines.

[Snafturi]

Ask them about the Jell-O

I know a little bit about that. Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol are banned substances in the LDS Church, so they eat Jell-o instead.

Almost right, Coffee, tea, nicotine, alcohol, illicit drugs, etc. It is called the Word of Wisdom and it just so happens to list those things which are harmful to you, and it listed them before the medical profession agreed.

Coffee actually has health benefits. There's research now that shows significantly it could reduce the risk of alzheimer's. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/ ... 6373.shtml

It can also reduce the risk of diabetes, Parkinson's disease, colon cancer, and cavities. http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I know a little bit about that. Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol are banned substances in the LDS Church, so they eat Jell-o instead.

Almost right, Coffee, tea, nicotine, alcohol, illicit drugs, etc. It is called the Word of Wisdom and it just so happens to list those things which are harmful to you, and it listed them before the medical profession agreed.

Coffee actually has health benefits. There's research now that shows significantly it could reduce the risk of alzheimer's. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/ ... 6373.shtml

It can also reduce the risk of diabetes, Parkinson's disease, colon cancer, and cavities. http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food

Granted. How many times have doctors said things LIKE "Wine the new heath food" only next week to say "Wine kills you".

As for me and my house, I will obey God. If HE says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

[Treznor]

Granted. How many times have doctors said things LIKE "Wine the new heath food" only next week to say "Wine kills you".

As for me and my house, I will obey God. If HE says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

A little wine can be helpful. A lot of wine can be harmful. Tolerances will vary with body chemistry.

As for me and my house, we will laugh. When God knocks on my door in person and tells me my concepts of right and wrong are mistaken, then I'll believe him. Until then, I'll work with what I'm given.

[Katganistan]

Almost right, Coffee, tea, nicotine, alcohol, illicit drugs, etc. It is called the Word of Wisdom and it just so happens to list those things which are harmful to you, and it listed them before the medical profession agreed.

Coffee actually has health benefits. There's research now that shows significantly it could reduce the risk of alzheimer's. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/ ... 6373.shtml

It can also reduce the risk of diabetes, Parkinson's disease, colon cancer, and cavities. http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food

Granted. How many times have doctors said things LIKE "Wine the new heath food" only next week to say "Wine kills you".

As for me and my house, I will obey God. If HE says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

Didn't Jesus turn the water to wine at the wedding feast?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Granted. How many times have doctors said things LIKE "Wine the new heath food" only next week to say "Wine kills you".

As for me and my house, I will obey God. If HE says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

Didn't Jesus turn the water to wine at the wedding feast?

It can be argued that the "wine" was simply grape juice. I am not sure on that one either, but the argument is there. It still does not change the fact that the commandment is there now.

We are told the "Words of Wisdom" is structured so that even the weakest of saints can obey. Simply put, because these are addictive substances, for some people, even a drop of wine can be bad. So it is best to err on the side of caution and say that no amount is OK.

[Katganistan]

You can say that about anything, though. Some people might love cookies and eat too many of them. Some people might love cabbage and eat too much of that.

And while I agree that if it's in your laws now, it's what you should follow (hence my being able to eat shrimp and wear cotton-polyester blends) there isn't anything I've heard of that suggests that wine meant grape juice.

[Intestinal fluids]

I had some mormons change a car tire for me once. And this was on a relatively steep hill so it was a bit of trouble for them. Anyway, it was damn funny watching them do that. But nowadays I just sit back and turn the volume on TV up when they come by as my dogs bark their heads off.

Your missing out on free labor, when they come by, have them paint the house or mow the lawn.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

You can say that about anything, though. Some people might love cookies and eat too many of them. Some people might love cabbage and eat too much of that.

And while I agree that if it's in your laws now, it's what you should follow (hence my being able to eat shrimp and wear cotton-polyester blends) there isn't anything I've heard of that suggests that wine meant grape juice.

There are other points in the doctrine that address this issue, but most people focus on the coffee, tea, smoking, drinking.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/89

And actually, this says that wine is OK if you make it yourself. But modern day Prophets have said that wine is not good either.

[Galloism]

It can be argued that the "wine" was simply grape juice.

That would make no sense in context.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I had some mormons change a car tire for me once. And this was on a relatively steep hill so it was a bit of trouble for them. Anyway, it was damn funny watching them do that. But nowadays I just sit back and turn the volume on TV up when they come by as my dogs bark their heads off.

Your missing out on free labor, when they come by, have them paint the house or mow the lawn.

I am sure that if you have a legitimate service project, they would be HAPPY to help. In fact they have a quota of service hours every month. However, these men are 19-24 ish, they are not professionals by anymeans. You get what you pay for in terms of physical labor.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

It can be argued that the "wine" was simply grape juice.

That would make no sense in context.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

If you replace "wine" with "grape juice" it wouldn't make sense?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

It can be argued that the "wine" was simply grape juice. I am not sure on that one either, but the argument is there. It still does not change the fact that the commandment is there now.

We are told the "Words of Wisdom" is structured so that even the weakest of saints can obey. Simply put, because these are addictive substances, for some people, even a drop of wine can be bad. So it is best to err on the side of caution and say that no amount is OK.

Sure, it can be argued ... but not terribly well.

What can be intelligently argued, is that then, and now, are different times, with different standards and different levels of acceptability for things. And likely, different levels of toxicity (proofs) on things like wine and the rest - wine being, all things considered, rather mild in comparison to a lot of liquors out there even now.

Also, bear in mind the other fun thing about our religion that you seem to be missing in some of this: Free Agency.

We are given commandments. We are given instructions. We are given guidelines. And we are also given the choice whether or not to follow them, and to what degree. How you choose to handle that is between you, and God in the end. But trying to re-invent history to suit current ideas is a bit ... silly, really.

[Galloism]

It can be argued that the "wine" was simply grape juice.

That would make no sense in context.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

If you replace "wine" with "grape juice" it wouldn't make sense?

Nope, not unless you think people can get drunk on grape juice. If you know some grape juice that I can get drunk on, please do tell. I've got to try it.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

That would make no sense in context.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Nope, not unless you think people can get drunk on grape juice. If you know some grape juice that I can get drunk on, please do tell. I've got to try it.

Where does this say they got drunk. it says they drunk it well, meaning to me that they liked it and drank it up. Just because the word DRUNK is in the sentance does not mean they got drunk.

This to me is the past form of to drink. It could have said, He offered them milk and they drunk it well.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

KMA, yaknow ... ya got a tg you might want to peek at. All the same - you're not doing yourself, or the church very many favors carrying on the way you have with some of this. Seriously. Take a moment and think through things before you tear off a post.

I know you're enthusiastic and all, but ... yeah. Just an observation.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Also, in re-reading the passage., it seems to suggest that others brought wine which was all consumed, then Jesus changed the water to wine when there ws no more to drink and it was better wine. I dont get the "then that which is worse:" part, but this is how I read the passage.