Mormon Missionaries.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

I dont have to prove to you anything... just watch is all. Oh and ":Shows up after" is not a primary responder. Shows up DURING is a primary responder.

Actually, you do. We've been through this. You make a claim, you must back it up. You didn't say "after", did you? You just said "watch who shows up". A disaster in Salt Lake or Idaho Falls? I'm very certain you'd get a lot of LDS relief efforts. Floods in Grand Forks, North Dakota? Not so much. So yes, in your experience, I'm sure you've responded, but depending on where you are, your blanket statement is like the ground in Acadiana -- it doesn't hold water.

Umm Hurricane Ivan ring a bell? Too obscure? Maybe Katrina does? Maybe the Tsunamis of Indonesia. You are in territory WAY over your head. Please, Please, please, get educated before making statements like this.

[Muravyets]

I failed to find any references either, at least during the 2 mins I searched. That does not mean that in this day and age of rampant litigisnous (sic) it woud not have happened.

When you post stuff like this, it makes me think you might be an elaborate satire.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I AM native American. And see... I told you that you wouldnt believe me EVEN if I posted my source. You wouldnt read my source, so I summarized the source. You didnt accept that. So No prob. No skin off my nose.

Now when you say Native American...do you mean indigenous people, or that you were born in America?

My heritage is Cherokee/Choctaw. That is about as native American as you can get.

[Intangelon]

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

I've done no such thing. You seem to have missed where I said KMA is not me, nor am I speaking for him, nor him for myself - nor are either one of us responsible for our church as a whole, nor should our opinions stated here be a basis for condemning the group as a whole. Please tell me you are intelligent enough to grasp this simple concept, because previous postings of yours suggested that to me over the years.

In fact, I believe I answered that here.

Okay, watch the flames by implication, sister.

Of course no one person represents the whole in something as complicated and contentious as religion. Once again, though, I point you to KMA's own words wherein he has told all of us that the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country. They aren't. They're one, and they're not very prevalent outside the inter-mountain West.

How about you address THAT sweeping generalization?

[Wilgrove]

I AM native American. And see... I told you that you wouldnt believe me EVEN if I posted my source. You wouldnt read my source, so I summarized the source. You didnt accept that. So No prob. No skin off my nose.

Now when you say Native American...do you mean indigenous people, or that you were born in America?

My heritage is Cherokee/Choctaw. That is about as native American as you can get.

Ok, fair enough. Have your tribe ever talked about Jesus Christ coming to America?

[Phenia]

I failed to find any references either, at least during the 2 mins I searched. That does not mean that in this day and age of rampant litigisnous (sic) it woud not have happened.

When you post stuff like this, it makes me think you might be an elaborate satire.

Well.

Yeah, and 500 years ago, the earth was flat and the center of the universe. See what logic and PROOF does for us.

He later claimed to be a computer programmer who loves logic.

Methinks we have a MeansToAnEnd type.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Of course no one person represents the whole in something as complicated and contentious as religion. Once again, though, I point you to KMA's own words wherein he has told all of us that the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country. They aren't. They're one, and they're not very prevalent outside the inter-mountain West.

How about you address THAT sweeping generalization?

WHAT post did I say "the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country." All I said is watch who shows up. On the other hand, they are a WORLDWIDE relief organization, with the resources to mobilize on a moments notice to bring aid anywhere.

[Intangelon]

Actually, you do. We've been through this. You make a claim, you must back it up. You didn't say "after", did you? You just said "watch who shows up". A disaster in Salt Lake or Idaho Falls? I'm very certain you'd get a lot of LDS relief efforts. Floods in Grand Forks, North Dakota? Not so much. So yes, in your experience, I'm sure you've responded, but depending on where you are, your blanket statement is like the ground in Acadiana -- it doesn't hold water.

Umm Hurricane Ivan ring a bell? Too obscure? Maybe Katrina does? Maybe the Tsunamis of Indonesia. You are in territory WAY over your head. Please, Please, please, get educated before making statements like this.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Tell me -- can you present a link or other source showing the number/amount of Mormon relief efforts on two hurricanes as it compares to the relief efforts of other churches, the Red Cross, college student organizations (the tiny Benedictine college I taught at in North Dakota sent a cadre of nursing students to the aftermath in Katrina, for example), and the like?

I'm not saying Mormons don't help. I'm saying that you've overstretched their importance with your "watch who shows up" nonsense.

And you can drop the "please, please" bullshit. It makes you sound incredibly and unjustifiably arrogant, given that I've had an answer for you at every turn here. When I am in over my head, I'll be the first to admit it. I assure you I'm not. If that's how you wish to convince yourself that you're never wrong, that's fine, but don't expect me to help. Now can we continue on the actual points of this discussion, or are you going to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about without any evidence again?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I guess I bothered reading as much as you did (or maybe a little more). Or can you show me actually calling every Mormon a right bastard? Or perhaps you can explain how it is valid for you to defend KMA's argument, but when I point out how your defense of him doesn't work, you get to dismiss my remarks because you're not him? And did you even read the remark by KMA that I was criticizing and you were defending to see that the religious affiliation of who is coming to help us was the point of his post? So clearly, noting the obvious affiliations of the services I am most likely to be helped by in the event of a disaster in my area is a valid move. Unless you are trying to defend his original statement by saying that the answer to my question is "Yes, unbeknownst to the general public, the LDS have taken over the Somerville Police and Fire Departments and Cataldo Ambulance Service and Funeral Home Co."

Are you saying that? Or are you so dead-set on accusing people of calling every Mormon a right bastard that you can't keep track of the thread?

No, dear. Not in the least. I have however noticed a definite tone to your posts, the vehemence with which they have been delivered, the doggedness with which you have hunted down any possible reason to be offended, and then promptly and loudly been offended.

No, some of his posts have not helped people's views - which is what I was trying to politely get at there by pointing out that while our church does indeed help, and in many areas have had members who for whatever reason were among the first on the scene, so have many others, and it really shouldn't matter who it is who's helping in the end, so long as those requiring assistance get it. Because again, why we do it isn't for the kudos or the claps on the back or the tv face time. At least that's what I've always been taught. We do it for the same reasons other decent human beings do it - its the right thing to do.

Now you're free to try and look for insult in that if you like, just as you're free to continue to point the finger and look for reasons to be angry about Mormons, their missionaries, and any reason you feel you may have been, or may be in the future wronged by them, their beliefs, or their very existence, but I'm not going to sit and argue with you about it.

I've tried to point out a few things - including the topical bit about 'if you're not interested, there's really no point in wasting their time (the missionaries) or yours', that I don't think some of the things claimed about the religion are correct, and that we're pretty much like a lot of others out there in some things like community service. And that being said, along with the offer of trying to clarify to the best of my ability any actual pertinent questions someone might have, there's probably not much more point in continuing to post.

Just not interested in the back and forth pro-mormon vs anti-mormon propaganda bs that tends to get going, sorry.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Now when you say Native American...do you mean indigenous people, or that you were born in America?

My heritage is Cherokee/Choctaw. That is about as native American as you can get.

Ok, fair enough. Have your tribe ever talked about Jesus Christ coming to America?

No, like I said, that was lost in a few generations. I never said they were the same, I said they were closer than you might think.

And from my world history, I remember vaguely the stories of how the South American indians thought that Cortez was some yellow haired God who had returned... now why would they think that?

[Phenia]

And from my world history, I remember vaguely the stories of how the South American indians thought that Cortez was some yellow haired God who had returned... now why would they think that?

Yellow-haired? Clearly this means that Native Americans believed in Nordic aliens and were UFO worshippers.

[Muravyets]

Umm Hurricane Ivan ring a bell? Too obscure? Maybe Katrina does? Maybe the Tsunamis of Indonesia. You are in territory WAY over your head. Please, Please, please, get educated before making statements like this.

I guess we missed you among the vast crowds of other organizations both religious and secular doing the exact same thing. Your attempt to paint us as big meanies who will feel guilty and ashamed for how we talked today when we get our nasty-ass lives saved by a Mormon fails because the LDS's relief efforts, while very nice, are not more notable than anyone else's.

[Intangelon]

Of course no one person represents the whole in something as complicated and contentious as religion. Once again, though, I point you to KMA's own words wherein he has told all of us that the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country. They aren't. They're one, and they're not very prevalent outside the inter-mountain West.

How about you address THAT sweeping generalization?

WHAT post did I say "the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country." All I said is watch who shows up. On the other hand, they are a WORLDWIDE relief organization, with the resources to mobilize on a moments notice to bring aid anywhere.

Then tell me -- what were you implying with "watch who shows up"? You're going to have to explain that, otherwise, we're forced to infer whatever it is you're leaving out. See, that's the problem with cryptic statements that go unsupported. We get to guess what you mean.

Moment's notice? Is there a Mormon Air Force? What are you talking about?

[Muravyets]

I failed to find any references either, at least during the 2 mins I searched. That does not mean that in this day and age of rampant litigisnous (sic) it woud not have happened.

When you post stuff like this, it makes me think you might be an elaborate satire.

Well.

Yeah, and 500 years ago, the earth was flat and the center of the universe. See what logic and PROOF does for us.

He later claimed to be a computer programmer who loves logic.

Methinks we have a MeansToAnEnd type.

I think you might be on to something.

[Wilgrove]

No, like I said, that was lost in a few generations. I never said they were the same, I said they were closer than you might think.

And from my world history, I remember vaguely the stories of how the South American indians thought that Cortez was some yellow haired God who had returned... now why would they think that?

Because they have a mythology about a God who left and promise to return. To be honest, the Jesus as a Savior story is not that unique. It has been found in other religion. You're stretching it if you think that the Aztec was visited by Jesus Christ.

Who for all intent and purpose was more likely a brown haired, brown eyed person.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Actually, you do. We've been through this. You make a claim, you must back it up. You didn't say "after", did you? You just said "watch who shows up". A disaster in Salt Lake or Idaho Falls? I'm very certain you'd get a lot of LDS relief efforts. Floods in Grand Forks, North Dakota? Not so much. So yes, in your experience, I'm sure you've responded, but depending on where you are, your blanket statement is like the ground in Acadiana -- it doesn't hold water.

Umm Hurricane Ivan ring a bell? Too obscure? Maybe Katrina does? Maybe the Tsunamis of Indonesia. You are in territory WAY over your head. Please, Please, please, get educated before making statements like this.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Tell me -- can you present a link or other source showing the number/amount of Mormon relief efforts on two hurricanes as it compares to the relief efforts of other churches, the Red Cross, college student organizations (the tiny Benedictine college I taught at in North Dakota sent a cadre of nursing students to the aftermath in Katrina, for example), and the like?

I'm not saying Mormons don't help. I'm saying that you've overstretched their importance with your "watch who shows up" nonsense.

And you can drop the "please, please" bullshit. It makes you sound incredibly and unjustifiably arrogant, given that I've had an answer for you at every turn here. When I am in over my head, I'll be the first to admit it. I assure you I'm not. If that's how you wish to convince yourself that you're never wrong, that's fine, but don't expect me to help. Now can we continue on the actual points of this discussion, or are you going to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about without any evidence again?

The only sources I have are offical Church news, because like I said, we dont publicize that kind of thing.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... focus.html (I wouldnt consider Galveston to be a hotbed of LDS activity)

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... agine.html

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... tates.html

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... abled.html

[Redwulf]

My heritage is Cherokee/Choctaw. That is about as native American as you can get.

Ok, fair enough. Have your tribe ever talked about Jesus Christ coming to America?

No, like I said, that was lost in a few generations. I never said they were the same, I said they were closer than you might think.

Does this sound familiar?

OK, fine. One could argue that Indians were exterminated becuse of thier religion, however, you missed my previous point that actually, they are the SAME religion. have no idea what I'm talking about? Look it up.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Of course no one person represents the whole in something as complicated and contentious as religion. Once again, though, I point you to KMA's own words wherein he has told all of us that the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country. They aren't. They're one, and they're not very prevalent outside the inter-mountain West.

How about you address THAT sweeping generalization?

WHAT post did I say "the LDS are the leading relief organization in the country." All I said is watch who shows up. On the other hand, they are a WORLDWIDE relief organization, with the resources to mobilize on a moments notice to bring aid anywhere.

Then tell me -- what were you implying with "watch who shows up"? You're going to have to explain that, otherwise, we're forced to infer whatever it is you're leaving out. See, that's the problem with cryptic statements that go unsupported. We get to guess what you mean.

Moment's notice? Is there a Mormon Air Force? What are you talking about?

Umm No. We have a worldwide presence. Well almost worlwide... but we are working on it.

I meant by "watch who shows up" is... duh... we show up at disasters and help. Most of the time you may not know because we dont advertise the fact.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Ok, fair enough. Have your tribe ever talked about Jesus Christ coming to America?

No, like I said, that was lost in a few generations. I never said they were the same, I said they were closer than you might think.

Does this sound familiar?

OK, fine. One could argue that Indians were exterminated becuse of thier religion, however, you missed my previous point that actually, they are the SAME religion. have no idea what I'm talking about? Look it up.

OK, I mis-remembered my remark. I did say they were the same and I stand by it.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

This has turned into exactly what I didnt want it to turn to when I first replyed to the OP. Good night.

OP, please have some respect, after all, they care about you.

[Intangelon]

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Tell me -- can you present a link or other source showing the number/amount of Mormon relief efforts on two hurricanes as it compares to the relief efforts of other churches, the Red Cross, college student organizations (the tiny Benedictine college I taught at in North Dakota sent a cadre of nursing students to the aftermath in Katrina, for example), and the like?

I'm not saying Mormons don't help. I'm saying that you've overstretched their importance with your "watch who shows up" nonsense.

And you can drop the "please, please" bullshit. It makes you sound incredibly and unjustifiably arrogant, given that I've had an answer for you at every turn here. When I am in over my head, I'll be the first to admit it. I assure you I'm not. If that's how you wish to convince yourself that you're never wrong, that's fine, but don't expect me to help. Now can we continue on the actual points of this discussion, or are you going to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about without any evidence again?

The only sources I have are offical Church news, because like I said, we dont publicize that kind of thing.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... focus.html (I wouldnt consider Galveston to be a hotbed of LDS activity)

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... agine.html

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... tates.html

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... abled.html

Okay, I'll address Hurricane Ike. Here's a Google search showing that LOTS of people gave time and money, and didn't wear bright yellow shirts to do it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=W49qSv7tI4bsswPmkKCXBQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=relief+organizations+contributions+after+hurricane+Ike&spell=1

Like I said, Mormons help. But since you still haven't explained what you meant by "watch who shows up", I am still forced to assume that you believe that the LDS is a large player in that arena, when it is merely one player of many.

[Skothia]

Mormons? Just like every other religion.

I want to grab my gun whenever those missionaries come to my house though. Those guys just piss the hell out of me.

[Muravyets]

No, dear. Not in the least. I have however noticed a definite tone to your posts, the vehemence with which they have been delivered, the doggedness with which you have hunted down any possible reason to be offended, and then promptly and loudly been offended.

Okay, here we go.

Step 1: Make it personal. Criticize Muravyet's tone instead of the content of her statements.

No, some of his posts have not helped people's views - which is what I was trying to politely get at there by pointing out that while our church does indeed help, and in many areas have had members who for whatever reason were among the first on the scene, so have many others, and it really shouldn't matter who it is who's helping in the end, so long as those requiring assistance get it. Because again, why we do it isn't for the kudos or the claps on the back or the tv face time. At least that's what I've always been taught. We do it for the same reasons other decent human beings do it - its the right thing to do.

Step 2: Make yourself look superior. Backpedal from one's own tone of vehemence and offendedness in one's earlier posts. Make sure not to change your stance but rather to pretend it was never any different so that you can continue to criticize Muravyets for her tone.

Now you're free to try and look for insult in that if you like, just as you're free to continue to point the finger and look for reasons to be angry about Mormons, their missionaries, and any reason you feel you may have been, or may be in the future wronged by them, their beliefs, or their very existence, but I'm not going to sit and argue with you about it.

Step 3: Don't let your opponent tell you what they were saying. Remember, he who controls history, controls the future. Repeat the accusation that Muravyets has been attacking Mormons without quoting her doing so as she requested and despite her earlier statements that she is criticizing specific people for specific actions -- missionaries for being obnoxious, the LDS Church for their Prop 8 Campaign, and KMA for making bad arguments -- but not Mormons for being Mormon. Note: Those statements are clearly backed up by an honest reading of my posts, but don't let that stop you from casting me as one of the villains your current drama.

I've tried to point out a few things - including the topical bit about 'if you're not interested, there's really no point in wasting their time (the missionaries) or yours', ...

Step 5: Keep it personal. Politely remind Muravyets that she always has the option of just shutting the fuck up, which you would probably like her to do, and which she certainly would do if she had any decency.

...that I don't think some of the things claimed about the religion are correct, and that we're pretty much like a lot of others out there in some things like community service. And that being said, along with the offer of trying to clarify to the best of my ability any actual pertinent questions someone might have, there's probably not much more point in continuing to post.

Just not interested in the back and forth pro-mormon vs anti-mormon propaganda bs that tends to get going, sorry.

Step 6: Make good your escape. Exit thread on a sad but resigned note, having first made sure that everyone knows you were only trying to be a peacemaker, but with people like these around, ah, what can be done?

Well... 'bye then.

[Muravyets]

No, like I said, that was lost in a few generations. I never said they were the same, I said they were closer than you might think.

And from my world history, I remember vaguely the stories of how the South American indians thought that Cortez was some yellow haired God who had returned... now why would they think that?

You do realize, of course, that simply telling us what you believe is not actually proof that it is true.

[Muravyets]

Umm No. We have a worldwide presence. Well almost worlwide... but we are working on it.

I meant by "watch who shows up" is... duh... we show up at disasters and help. Most of the time you may not know because we dont advertise the fact.

Well, if you're hiding it, telling us to watch for you is kind of silly, now isn't it?