Mormon Missionaries.

[Intangelon]

Our Bishops like any other clergy, are licensed to perform marriages. The reason *I* opposed the bill was the fear that we would be FORCED to perform gay marriages. The Church has NO contributions to the bill. The members, well, we can contribute to whatever we want. Plus, you don't mention that the most vocal supporters of the bill were Non-LDS blacks. So now Blacks are evil, hate mongering bigots as well?

Bullshit twice.

You opposed the bill because your religion told you to. Can you show me ANY instance in which ANY clergy in ANY state allowing gay marriage has been FORCED to marry a couple whose relationship runs contrary to their teachings? No, you can't. That fear was drummed up by (religious) opposition who just don't like homosexuality. And that's fine, that's your right, but to spread lies and false propaganda in order to get what you want doesn't sound very Christ-like to me.

The Church -- YOUR Church -- authorized millions of dollars' worth of in-kind contributions (man-hours, materials, etc.). Nice strawman with the blacks, too, but no, you can try to put words in my mouth all you like, but "non-LDS Blacks" isn't an organized religion at last notice. You may wish you could weasel out of your Church's bullying tactics, but you can't.

You've asked us to look at some links, now I ask you to look at one. Here's the Massachusetts Experience video in which clergy in MA show how the sky has not fallen in MA after five years of legal homosexual marriages. No church has been forced to marry anyone. That information was available to you long before the Prop 8 vote in CA. Somehow, I doubt your church made it available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJF5TREeliw

I failed to find any references either, at least during the 2 mins I searched. That does not mean that in this day and age of rampant litigisnous (sic) it woud not have happened.

Wait -- you're now claiming that, despite the fact that it DID NOT HAPPEN and HAS NEVER HAPPENED, you oppose others seeking equality because it MIGHT have happened? Wow. Thank you for making my point about blind faith.

[Redwulf]

Umm we have MILLIONS of members in California. They are citizens. Citizens should vote thier beliefs. I wont apologize for that.

And you shouldn't!

However, your Church has much to answer for with the lies, appeals to emotion, and misrepresentation in its propaganda regarding Prop 8.

That's what politics has become. It's no longer about rational thought or facts or figures. It's now an emotional war for our heart strings.

Politics has become Family Circus.

Politics is far funnier.

[Muravyets]

I better conduct an analysis, send me pictures of the stared at area and i will tell you exactly how much of a normal male response this is. And what to wear to prevent further occurrences. *nod*

*stuffs ghost of Gandhi into a box and throws G&D in front of a train*

[Wilgrove]

People, a reminder here - anyone can create an agenda out of anything. And anywhere you have one person's 'rights' at question, you can show that another person's 'rights' are infringed on by allowing one, or the other to be put ahead.

"Gays can't marry" doesn't seem terribly fair to those who want to, any more than "You cannot pray in public" does for those who feel its their right to express their beliefs as they see fit.

It's a good thing the second rule doesn't exist, isn't it?

Ah but see, it does because we outlawed School Prayers back in the 50s, so in the minds of Christians, that means they can't pray in public anymore.

Nevermind the fact that the Wiccan group I'm with does public Sabbat celebration 8 times out of the year, which is a form of prayer.

[Greed and Death]

I better conduct an analysis, send me pictures of the stared at area and i will tell you exactly how much of a normal male response this is. And what to wear to prevent further occurrences. *nod*

*stuffs ghost of Gandhi into a box and throws G&D in front of a train*

It was the margarita's talking I swear.

[Wilgrove]

Politics is far funnier.

True.

[Muravyets]

Hmm... No one has EVER cried discrimination before? No one has ever tried to force an organization to do something beyond thier beliefs? Hm... where was it.... its coming to me... Oh Yeah. the Boy Scouts of America.

Coinky-dinkily, another Mormon-dominated organization (recently). Funny -- the Boy Scouts never had any prohibitions against gay scouts until the Mormons got involved. It was only after the Mormons got involved in the leadership of the organization that gay youths started getting kicked out of scouting or denied entry into scouting. Hm, those poor oppressed Mormons. Every time they try to push gays out of some part of society, they catch heat for it. So unfair.

And your vague suppositions that someone will force you to violate your most dearly held beliefs for their own selfish purposes in spite of all the evidence otherwise -- the fact that it would be against the law to try to do that, and that nothing like that has happened in the states that have already legalized gay marriage, and that no gay marriage law has ever failed to include language specifically stating that, in accordance with the Constitution, no church would ever be forced to perform marriages against their doctrine, and that churches are already allowed to discriminate in who they will perform marriages for -- are not convincing. I find it hard to believe that even you believe that nonsense.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

People, a reminder here - anyone can create an agenda out of anything. And anywhere you have one person's 'rights' at question, you can show that another person's 'rights' are infringed on by allowing one, or the other to be put ahead.

"Gays can't marry" doesn't seem terribly fair to those who want to, any more than "You cannot pray in public" does for those who feel its their right to express their beliefs as they see fit.

It's a good thing the second rule doesn't exist, isn't it?

It's a pity some people can't be honest enough to quote the entire response in their efforts to make their opponent appear to say something other than what they really were ... It happens a lot when someone tries to go for the quick cuts rather than actual intelligent debate, I've noticed.

In any case, since it seems for the third time to have been ignored in favor of more colorful nonsensical bits, in reference to disaster assistance and the like:

That being said, we're not the only ones who do these sorts of things, and quite frankly, 'recognition' isn't why they're done. Nor should it be. So whether or not people are aware of who is helping them doesn't matter to me so much as those people are getting help from someone, somewhere, and if we're able to step up - fantastic.

[Intangelon]

Politics is far funnier.

Right up until you realize that these fawning, sycophantic, poll-humping do-nothings with the aversion to any action that might get them not elected are all paid, insured and accoutred by we, the taxpayers. Then it stops being funny and starts being depressing.

And that's just the Democrats.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I refer you to the Book of Mormon. That is my source. I dare you to read it then refute my claim. I could post the proof here, but since the source is the BoM, you would likely refute it. You may not belive it, but that is where I am getting my information.

You look REALLY silly talking about stuff you have no idea about.

Look, sir, I don't know where you get off telling me to read a whole religious text in order to search for evidence of a claim YOU HAVE MADE.

Get that? YOU have made the claim that Mormonism, a religion centered on Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is THE SAME -- not similar, THE SAME -- as Native American religions. YOU need to tell ME where in your sprawling text to look for this similarity.

Do Mormons have sweat lodges? Smudge sticks? Do they dance? Do they believe that everything has a spirit, even the very rocks they stand on? YOU, sir, profess to be a Mormon and profess this SAMENESS. It is up to YOU to show it. Unless you can't. In which case, YOU are the one looking silly by saying "THIS IS TRUE" and then "I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S TRUE, BUT IT IS."

I'm not engaging you further on this particular point until you offer the evidence or admit that you simply do not know.

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

[Intangelon]

It's a pity some people can't be honest enough to quote the entire response in their efforts to make their opponent appear to say something other than what they really were ... It happens a lot when someone tries to go for the quick cuts rather than actual intelligent debate, I've noticed.

In any case, since it seems for the third time to have been ignored in favor of more colorful nonsensical bits, in reference to disaster assistance and the like:

That being said, we're not the only ones who do these sorts of things, and quite frankly, 'recognition' isn't why they're done. Nor should it be. So whether or not people are aware of who is helping them doesn't matter to me so much as those people are getting help from someone, somewhere, and if we're able to step up - fantastic.

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

[Redwulf]

People, a reminder here - anyone can create an agenda out of anything. And anywhere you have one person's 'rights' at question, you can show that another person's 'rights' are infringed on by allowing one, or the other to be put ahead.

"Gays can't marry" doesn't seem terribly fair to those who want to, any more than "You cannot pray in public" does for those who feel its their right to express their beliefs as they see fit.

It's a good thing the second rule doesn't exist, isn't it?

Ah but see, it does because we outlawed School Prayers back in the 50s, so in the minds of Christians, that means they can't pray in public anymore.

Nevermind the fact that the Wiccan group I'm with does public Sabbat celebration 8 times out of the year, which is a form of prayer.

That's not prayer, it's devil worship! before I get flamed to hell and back that is sarcasm people.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

It's a pity some people can't be honest enough to quote the entire response in their efforts to make their opponent appear to say something other than what they really were ... It happens a lot when someone tries to go for the quick cuts rather than actual intelligent debate, I've noticed.

In any case, since it seems for the third time to have been ignored in favor of more colorful nonsensical bits, in reference to disaster assistance and the like:

That being said, we're not the only ones who do these sorts of things, and quite frankly, 'recognition' isn't why they're done. Nor should it be. So whether or not people are aware of who is helping them doesn't matter to me so much as those people are getting help from someone, somewhere, and if we're able to step up - fantastic.

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

I dont have to prove to you anything... just watch is all. Oh and ":Shows up after" is not a primary responder. Shows up DURING is a primary responder.

[Redwulf]

People, a reminder here - anyone can create an agenda out of anything. And anywhere you have one person's 'rights' at question, you can show that another person's 'rights' are infringed on by allowing one, or the other to be put ahead.

"Gays can't marry" doesn't seem terribly fair to those who want to, any more than "You cannot pray in public" does for those who feel its their right to express their beliefs as they see fit.

It's a good thing the second rule doesn't exist, isn't it?

It's a pity some people can't be honest enough to quote the entire response in their efforts to make their opponent appear to say something other than what they really were ... It happens a lot when someone tries to go for the quick cuts rather than actual intelligent debate, I've noticed.

In any case, since it seems for the third time to have been ignored in favor of more colorful nonsensical bits, in reference to disaster assistance and the like:

That being said, we're not the only ones who do these sorts of things, and quite frankly, 'recognition' isn't why they're done. Nor should it be. So whether or not people are aware of who is helping them doesn't matter to me so much as those people are getting help from someone, somewhere, and if we're able to step up - fantastic.

None of this changes my point at all. In most states it is the rule that gays can not marry. In no states is it a rule that you can not pray in public. If it were I would be arguing against the breach of freedom as I am doing here.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

It's a pity some people can't be honest enough to quote the entire response in their efforts to make their opponent appear to say something other than what they really were ... It happens a lot when someone tries to go for the quick cuts rather than actual intelligent debate, I've noticed.

In any case, since it seems for the third time to have been ignored in favor of more colorful nonsensical bits, in reference to disaster assistance and the like:

That being said, we're not the only ones who do these sorts of things, and quite frankly, 'recognition' isn't why they're done. Nor should it be. So whether or not people are aware of who is helping them doesn't matter to me so much as those people are getting help from someone, somewhere, and if we're able to step up - fantastic.

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

I've done no such thing. You seem to have missed where I said KMA is not me, nor am I speaking for him, nor him for myself - nor are either one of us responsible for our church as a whole, nor should our opinions stated here be a basis for condemning the group as a whole. Please tell me you are intelligent enough to grasp this simple concept, because previous postings of yours suggested that to me over the years.

In fact, I believe I answered that here

[Intangelon]

Look, sir, I don't know where you get off telling me to read a whole religious text in order to search for evidence of a claim YOU HAVE MADE.

Get that? YOU have made the claim that Mormonism, a religion centered on Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is THE SAME -- not similar, THE SAME -- as Native American religions. YOU need to tell ME where in your sprawling text to look for this similarity.

Do Mormons have sweat lodges? Smudge sticks? Do they dance? Do they believe that everything has a spirit, even the very rocks they stand on? YOU, sir, profess to be a Mormon and profess this SAMENESS. It is up to YOU to show it. Unless you can't. In which case, YOU are the one looking silly by saying "THIS IS TRUE" and then "I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S TRUE, BUT IT IS."

I'm not engaging you further on this particular point until you offer the evidence or admit that you simply do not know.

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

Was that so hard? Otherwise, your implication is that THE WHOLE OF THE BOOK OF MORMON is similar to ALL NATIVE AMERICAN RELIGIONS, and surely that is preposterous.

Problem: Native Americans share none of the racial traits of caucasoid Hebraic people. Evolution isn't that fast. You're also contending that the Arawak nation of the Caribbean are the Lamanites. Again, where are any similarities?

Also, legends like Christ would have been passed down orally for generations by shamans and storytellers and dream keepers and the like. The claim that someone as prominent and powerful as Christ would have been forgotten to a shamanistic religion that tells its people's history in ceremony after ceremony is...difficult to swallow. Now, I will grant you that the peaceful nature of Christ would have been something no Arawak would have recognized in Columbus or his men, but still, without any kind of resemblance or other evidence, its a perilously thin thread you've woven.

That said, I appreciate you weaving it for me, given that you made the claim. Thank you.

[Phenia]

I dont have to prove to you anything...

And are incapable of it in any case. You know, it's interesting for a guy who posted early in this thread that you had no intention of debating how much you're trying to debate. You only remember to "not debate" when you lose, same as when you lose a test of logic you make a rant about how evil and wrong logic is.


I don't think you're a Mormon. I don't think you're against abortion. I don't think you've ever been a computer programmer. I think you're a liar feeding off the negative attention.

[Redwulf]

I refer you to the Book of Mormon. That is my source. I dare you to read it then refute my claim. I could post the proof here, but since the source is the BoM, you would likely refute it. You may not belive it, but that is where I am getting my information.

You look REALLY silly talking about stuff you have no idea about.

Look, sir, I don't know where you get off telling me to read a whole religious text in order to search for evidence of a claim YOU HAVE MADE.

Get that? YOU have made the claim that Mormonism, a religion centered on Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is THE SAME -- not similar, THE SAME -- as Native American religions. YOU need to tell ME where in your sprawling text to look for this similarity.

Do Mormons have sweat lodges? Smudge sticks? Do they dance? Do they believe that everything has a spirit, even the very rocks they stand on? YOU, sir, profess to be a Mormon and profess this SAMENESS. It is up to YOU to show it. Unless you can't. In which case, YOU are the one looking silly by saying "THIS IS TRUE" and then "I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S TRUE, BUT IT IS."

I'm not engaging you further on this particular point until you offer the evidence or admit that you simply do not know.

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

Have you, personally, ever met a Native American? One that followed their original religion? Do you know anything about Native American religion that comes from a source other than your book?

[Wilgrove]

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

So, your evidence is a book, written by a man in the 1800s...from a source that no one has ever seen....and even though Jesus of Nazareth as humanity's savior was a central teaching of the Native Americans...it has been lost. So really, there's no way you can prove this.

[Muravyets]

Did you actually bother reading, or are you so dead-set on calling every Mormon a right bastard that you sorta miss the details? Or did you miss that I am not KMA, nor can either one of us 'speak for' or 'be responsible for' our religion as a whole? Do you make it a point to ask what religion or affiliation someone is before accepting assistance, perhaps? I know I never have, just been thankful someone out there was willing to lend a hand.

Geeze, get a grip, step back, go get something to drink and cool off for a minute or something. Whole lot of unwarranted nastiness there.

I guess I bothered reading as much as you did (or maybe a little more). Or can you show me actually calling every Mormon a right bastard? Or perhaps you can explain how it is valid for you to defend KMA's argument, but when I point out how your defense of him doesn't work, you get to dismiss my remarks because you're not him? And did you even read the remark by KMA that I was criticizing and you were defending to see that the religious affiliation of who is coming to help us was the point of his post? So clearly, noting the obvious affiliations of the services I am most likely to be helped by in the event of a disaster in my area is a valid move. Unless you are trying to defend his original statement by saying that the answer to my question is "Yes, unbeknownst to the general public, the LDS have taken over the Somerville Police and Fire Departments and Cataldo Ambulance Service and Funeral Home Co."

Are you saying that? Or are you so dead-set on accusing people of calling every Mormon a right bastard that you can't keep track of the thread?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Look, sir, I don't know where you get off telling me to read a whole religious text in order to search for evidence of a claim YOU HAVE MADE.

Get that? YOU have made the claim that Mormonism, a religion centered on Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is THE SAME -- not similar, THE SAME -- as Native American religions. YOU need to tell ME where in your sprawling text to look for this similarity.

Do Mormons have sweat lodges? Smudge sticks? Do they dance? Do they believe that everything has a spirit, even the very rocks they stand on? YOU, sir, profess to be a Mormon and profess this SAMENESS. It is up to YOU to show it. Unless you can't. In which case, YOU are the one looking silly by saying "THIS IS TRUE" and then "I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S TRUE, BUT IT IS."

I'm not engaging you further on this particular point until you offer the evidence or admit that you simply do not know.

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

Have you, personally, ever met a Native American? One that followed their original religion? Do you know anything about Native American religion that comes from a source other than your book?

I AM native American. And see... I told you that you wouldnt believe me EVEN if I posted my source. You wouldnt read my source, so I summarized the source. You didnt accept that. So No prob. No skin off my nose.

[Intangelon]

Disingenuous.

You've deliberately missed the point that KMA, very ominously, told us to "watch who shows up" after a disaster. The implication there was that the LDS were primary responders, as opposed to all religious and service organizations. Come on.

I dont have to prove to you anything... just watch is all. Oh and ":Shows up after" is not a primary responder. Shows up DURING is a primary responder.

Actually, you do. We've been through this. You make a claim, you must back it up. You didn't say "after", did you? You just said "watch who shows up". A disaster in Salt Lake or Idaho Falls? I'm very certain you'd get a lot of LDS relief efforts. Floods in Grand Forks, North Dakota? Not so much. So yes, in your experience, I'm sure you've responded, but depending on where you are, your blanket statement is like the ground in Acadiana -- it doesn't hold water.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

So, your evidence is a book, written by a man in the 1800s...from a source that no one has ever seen....and even though Jesus of Nazareth as humanity's savior was a central teaching of the Native Americans...it has been lost. So really, there's no way you can prove this.

*I* never said I could prove it. In fact, I said the opposite.

[Wilgrove]

I AM native American. And see... I told you that you wouldnt believe me EVEN if I posted my source. You wouldnt read my source, so I summarized the source. You didnt accept that. So No prob. No skin off my nose.

Now when you say Native American...do you mean indigenous people, or that you were born in America?

[Redwulf]

Look, sir, I don't know where you get off telling me to read a whole religious text in order to search for evidence of a claim YOU HAVE MADE.

Get that? YOU have made the claim that Mormonism, a religion centered on Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is THE SAME -- not similar, THE SAME -- as Native American religions. YOU need to tell ME where in your sprawling text to look for this similarity.

Do Mormons have sweat lodges? Smudge sticks? Do they dance? Do they believe that everything has a spirit, even the very rocks they stand on? YOU, sir, profess to be a Mormon and profess this SAMENESS. It is up to YOU to show it. Unless you can't. In which case, YOU are the one looking silly by saying "THIS IS TRUE" and then "I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S TRUE, BUT IT IS."

I'm not engaging you further on this particular point until you offer the evidence or admit that you simply do not know.

Do you REALLY want me to post the ENTIRE text of the BoM here. I can CERTAINLY do that... well maybe I cant.

Ok, I will summarize.

The Native Americans are decendants of Jewish people who crossed the ocean right before the destruction of Israel in 600BC. They thrived and became a civilization. The civilization split. there were many wars. The two sides were the Nephites and the Lamanites. Jesus Christ appeared to the groups, who at this time had merged, after his resurrection ( "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold"). Those people, after many were destroyed during the destruction that followed His death, became Christians by Christs own hand. Peace ensued for many years. Alas, contention and wickedness broke out and they split again. The Lamanites eventually hunted down and killed all of the Nephites and became what Columbus saw in 1492ish.

So, I grant you that the Indians that Columbus saw probably had no idea WHO Christ was. That knowledge was lost over the generations. But Christ WAS in thier heritage.

Have you, personally, ever met a Native American? One that followed their original religion? Do you know anything about Native American religion that comes from a source other than your book?

[quote=KiloMikeAlpha]I AM native American. And see... I told you that you wouldnt believe me EVEN if I posted my source. You wouldnt read my source, so I summarized the source. You didnt accept that. So No prob. No skin off my nose.[/quote]

So I ask again. Do you know anything about the ACTUAL practices of your tribe?