Mormon Missionaries.

[Buffett and Colbert]

To be fair, if we all have to have been there and seen that, or know inherently the 'entire story', we might as well pack up General right now and go home, because NONE of us are thusly qualified to debate here.

There is a difference between offering your perspective on a topic and offering your supposed knowledge. People can be wrong. But to maximize your probability of success, you'd think you'd stick to topics you know the complete story about.

I don't know terribly much about Mormonism. But this thread wasn't about that (it devolved into it later). It was about how to deal with Mormon missionaries. I can offer my personal experience and input on the subject. Therefore, I'm more or less qualified to talk about it. This person is qualified to talk about Mormonism, as he is a Mormon. But this doesn't branch out to all aspects of Mormon history.

[Wilgrove]

Blood Atonement is a temple thing which is not practiced anymore. I'm sure you can look it up somewhere. You jsut wont get an official LDS stance on it because we dont talk about what goes on in the temples.

Hmm...fair enough.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Oh do get a grip. Wikipedia is now the end-all authority on what is and isn't fact? Don't make me laugh. I have -never- heard of anything like this, ever, anywhere, repeat. That is just ... wow. It boggles the mind, that bit of idiocy.

Wikipedia is usually quite accurate and an excellent source. Or do you just not like what it says?

EDIT-- I'm taking my leave now so don't expect a response. See in some other thread (or perhaps this one).

[Milks Empire]

Guys... some of you are teetering pretty close to flamebaiting. Is there any way you could lay off KMA a little?

For the record, I complain about missionaries not because they are Mormon but because they are missionaries. I don't care what religion they are.

And I don't poke fun at KMA's bad arguments because they come from KMA, but because they are bad arguments.

Just wanted to clarify that. Bye now.

*Some* of you, not all of you.

[Galloism]

I still don't see why one must need to execute 120 people just for possessing a different creed?

Actually, it was more of a "wrong place, wrong time, from the wrong area of the country" type of thing rather than the wagoners' religion having much to do with it.

At the time of the massacre, Mormons had an acute memory of recent persecutions against them, particularly the death of "the prophets", and had been taught that God would soon exact vengeance. The persecutions began in the 1830s, when the state of Missouri officially opposed their presence in the state, engaged with them in the Mormon War, and expelled them in 1838 with an Extermination Order. During the Mormon War, prominent Mormon apostle David W. Patten died of wounds suffered after leading Mormon insurgents in an attack against the Missouri Militia at Crooked Creek, and a group of Mormons were massacred at Haun's Mill. After the Mormons established a new home in Nauvoo, Illinois, in 1839, they were again forced to leave behind homes and land in Illinois after conflicts with locals culminated in the 1844 lynch mob assassination of Joseph Smith, Jr. and his brother, Patriarch Hyrum Smith by a mob of Illinois militia. Brigham Young led the majority of Mormons westward in 1846 to avoid civil war.[22]

In Utah, just months before the Mountain Meadows massacre, Mormons received word that yet another "prophet" had been killed: in April 1857, apostle Parley P. Pratt was shot in Arkansas by Hector McLean, the estranged husband of one of Pratt's plural wives, Eleanor McLean Pratt.[23] Mormon leaders immediately proclaimed Pratt as another martyr, and compared his death with that of Joseph Smith.[24] Many Mormons held the people of Arkansas responsible.[25]

In 1857, Mormon leaders taught that the Second Coming of Jesus was imminent,[26] and that God would soon exact punishment against the United States for persecuting Mormons and martyring "the prophets" Joseph Smith, Jr., Hyrum Smith, David W. Patten, and Parley P. Pratt.[27] In their Endowment ceremony, faithful early Latter-day Saints took an Oath of Vengeance against the murderers of the prophets.[28] As a result of this oath, several Mormon apostles and other leaders considered it their religious duty to kill the prophets' murderers if they ever came across them.[29]

The sermons, blessings, and private counsel by Mormon leaders just prior to the Mountain Meadows massacre can be understood as encouraging private individuals to execute God's judgment against the wicked.[30] In Cedar City, Utah, church leaders taught that members should ignore dead bodies and go about their business.[31] Col. William H. Dame, the ranking officer in southern Utah who ordered the Mountain Meadows massacre, received a patriarchal blessing in 1854 that he would "be called to act at the head of a portion of thy Brethren and of the Lamanites (Native Americans) in the redemption of Zion and the avenging of the blood of the prophets upon them that dwell on the earth".[32] In June 1857, Philip Klingensmith, another participant, was similarly blessed that he would participate in "avenging the blood of Brother Joseph".[33][34] The train led by Alexander Fancher waited outside Salt Lake City for more than a week as other groups caught up with them. The other, led by Captain John Twitty Baker was the last to arrive. Here the groups decided which route to take across the Great Basin to California. North to the California Trail, involved traveling the along the Humboldt River, west across the desert to California and across the Sierra Nevada mountains to Sacramento. This route put emigrants at risk of becoming snowbound in the mountains as the Donner party had ten years before. South to the Old Spanish Trail, would take them through the settlements in southern Utah, the arid Mohave Desert and to Los Angeles.[35] At least one couple, Henry D. and Malinda Cameron Scott, chose to take the northern route while others from the woman's family went south with the united parties under Captain Fancher.[36]

It was reported to Brigham Young that the party was from Arkansas. [37] It was also rumored that Eleanor McLean Pratt, the apostle Pratt's plural wife, recognized one of the party as being present at her husband's murder.[38]

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Oh do get a grip. Wikipedia is now the end-all authority on what is and isn't fact? Don't make me laugh. I have -never- heard of anything like this, ever, anywhere, repeat. That is just ... wow. It boggles the mind, that bit of idiocy.

Wikipedia is usually quite accurate and an excellent source. Or do you just not like what it says?

EDIT-- I'm taking my leave now so don't expect a response. See in some other thread (or perhaps this one).

Accurate to whatever degree the last person to edit the article in question was. So no, I don't accept it as 'gospel', pardon the pun.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Blood Atonement is a temple thing which is not practiced anymore. I'm sure you can look it up somewhere. You jsut wont get an official LDS stance on it because we dont talk about what goes on in the temples.

Hmm...fair enough.

And you will find some fairly accurate depictions about what goes on. People have left the Church for whatever reason and decided to try to hurt us by telling the world what happens in our temples.

[Milks Empire]

Oh do get a grip. Wikipedia is now the end-all authority on what is and isn't fact? Don't make me laugh. I have -never- heard of anything like this, ever, anywhere, repeat. That is just ... wow. It boggles the mind, that bit of idiocy.

Wikipedia is usually quite accurate and an excellent source. Or do you just not like what it says?

EDIT-- I'm taking my leave now so don't expect a response. See in some other thread (or perhaps this one).

Accurate to whatever degree the last person to edit the article in question was. So no, I don't accept it as 'gospel', pardon the pun.

In Wiki's defense, any vandalism lasts on average four minutes. And they're very anal-retentive about citing sources unless you're just editing for spelling and grammar.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

The only thing I will say about the Blood Atonement was that is used to be in practice, much like poligamy.

We dont practice nor condone poligamy any more, and we dont practice the Blood Atonement either.

[Wilgrove]

Blood Atonement is a temple thing which is not practiced anymore. I'm sure you can look it up somewhere. You jsut wont get an official LDS stance on it because we dont talk about what goes on in the temples.

Hmm...fair enough.

And you will find some fairly accurate depictions about what goes on. People have left the Church for whatever reason and decided to try to hurt us by telling the world what happens in our temples.

Well if people are being killed to atone for their sins, either voluntarily or involuntary, then honestly it does need to get out, and have the appropriate authority figures look into it. Because as far as I know, that's pretty much manslaughter if not murder.

[Redwulf]

Blood Atonement is a temple thing which is not practiced anymore. I'm sure you can look it up somewhere. You just wont get an official LDS stance on it because we don't talk about what goes on in the temples.

What happens in temple stays in temple?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Well if people are being killed to atone for their sins, either voluntarily or involuntary, then honestly it does need to get out, and have the appropriate authority figures look into it. Because as far as I know, that's pretty much manslaughter if not murder.

you think maybe thats why it doesn't happen anymore? We believe in following the laws of the land. I think we all would agree that laws of the past are not laws of the day.

[Wilgrove]

Well if people are being killed to atone for their sins, either voluntarily or involuntary, then honestly it does need to get out, and have the appropriate authority figures look into it. Because as far as I know, that's pretty much manslaughter if not murder.

you think maybe thats why it doesn't happen anymore? We believe in following the laws of the land. I think we all would agree that laws of the past are not laws of the day.

Well, I'm just saying that people telling the world what happens inside the LDS temple isn't what hurting LDS, it's what happening in the temple that hurts them.

Glad to see y'all don't practice Blood Atonement anymore though.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Well if people are being killed to atone for their sins, either voluntarily or involuntary, then honestly it does need to get out, and have the appropriate authority figures look into it. Because as far as I know, that's pretty much manslaughter if not murder.

you think maybe thats why it doesn't happen anymore? We believe in following the laws of the land. I think we all would agree that laws of the past are not laws of the day.

Well, I'm just saying that people telling the world what happens inside the LDS temple isn't what hurting LDS, it's what happening in the temple that hurts them.

Glad to see y'all don't practice Blood Atonement anymore though.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

[Wilgrove]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

The National Guard?

[Galloism]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

The National Guard? The Red Cross? Fema? Jehovah's Witnesses?

[Milks Empire]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter."
-Honestly, I'm not sure who said this, but it's been attributed to Dr. Seuss.

[Wilgrove]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

The National Guard? The Red Cross? Fema? Jehovah's Witnesses?

To be accurate, FEMA will be one month late.

[Milks Empire]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

The National Guard? The Red Cross? Fema? Jehovah's Witnesses?

To be accurate, FEMA will be one month late.

*rimshot*

[KiloMikeAlpha]

You guys liketo make fun, fine. Next time there is a disaster in your area, pay attention to who shows up and helps.

The National Guard? The Red Cross? Fema? Jehovah's Witnesses?

Just pay attention is all... Because you wont likely see it in the papers, news or other media.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I'd think, given how many members we have, and how close-knit wards are, that if people were being killed in the temples? We'd more or less know about it. *facepalms* In the few things I've participated in at the temples, there has been nothing whatsoever untoward, immoral, uncomfortable, wrong, bad, evil, abusive, or anything of the sort involved.

I don't think its too much to ask that some things are considered sacred and given some modicum of respect on account. And given my experience there, I can guarantee it wasn't a matter of 'covering up' or any other such situation that would warrant the need for 'outing' so to speak.

I'd still never heard of this 'blood atonement' thing until it was brought up here. Yeesh. And KMA - there's nothing wrong with defending your beliefs or opinions, but it is good to be responsible in how you do it.

[Intangelon]

You guys are so full of it. Surprise, I am a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have not one iota of an idea about what you are talking about.

I WILL NOT debate you on this subject because it is not meant to be debated in open forums.

I will say this however, respect is something that you obviously are lacking. If you dont care about the religion, say no thank you and go on. Now days, there are a LOT of people to talk to and a short time to do it in. They will NOT waste thier time in endless debates.

You make fun of things you could not possibly understand. DO NOT pull the logic card on me, that will never work. Logic and religion are two sides of the same coin, both exist in harmony with each other. Some things, like law, must be logic based, while others, like religion, inherently cannot be proved. If you can prove it, it requires no faith.

I know you all will go.... KMA... OF COURSE... It all makes sense... so be it.

Well, THAT saves us a lot of time...

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I'd think, given how many members we have, and how close-knit wards are, that if people were being killed in the temples? We'd more or less know about it. *facepalms* In the few things I've participated in at the temples, there has been nothing whatsoever untoward, immoral, uncomfortable, wrong, bad, evil, abusive, or anything of the sort involved.

I don't think its too much to ask that some things are considered sacred and given some modicum of respect on account. And given my experience there, I can guarantee it wasn't a matter of 'covering up' or any other such situation that would warrant the need for 'outing' so to speak.

I'd still never heard of this 'blood atonement' thing until it was brought up here. Yeesh. And KMA - there's nothing wrong with defending your beliefs or opinions, but it is good to be responsible in how you do it.

Duly noted.

[Phenia]

Ah, that benevolent Church of LDS.

Three words on that subject: "Protect California children."